Calvinism is Gospel !

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You're claiming that salvation is attained by man and God cooperating together to achieve salvation. The problem with that idea is the Lord Jesus said in, John 3:3, a person must be "born again" (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit just to see or desire the Kingdom of God.

The Fall affected every part of human nature, including the mind, heart, and will. While unbelievers can make everyday choices, they lack the spiritual desire or "moral ability" to choose God.

1 Corinthians 2:14, which states that the natural person cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are "folly to him".

Because faith is a gift and humans are spiritually dead, salvation is entirely a work of God from start to finish. God must first sovereignly change the sinner's heart so that they want to believe the gospel.

As Jesus said, "Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). Paul explains that the problem is not lack of information but lack of spiritual discernment. The gospel seems like foolishness to the natural man because he does not have the Holy Spirit.

The sinner’s condition is not like a man who wants to believe but cannot. It is more like someone who hates the offer and wants nothing to do with it. "You refuse to come to Me, that you may have life" (John 5:40). Why? "Because the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).

It's correct that we are called to God to be His people. He will call whom He pleases...
We are then to out our faith in Jesus to abide with Him and be saved. Faith is not works and doesn't remove from His sacrifice in any way. We are to put our faith in Him (Mark 16:16) and not fall away (Hebrews 6:4-6).

If we are God's people, we are to remain so. Works then will stem from this lige with Jesus if we love Him and believe in Him.
 
A major blind spot or heresy is known as the doctrine of TULIP (tulipism), which may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation (contradicting Deut. 30:19, Matt. 7:7, 23:37).

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement/condition such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell (contradicting Eph. 2:8-10).

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls (contra John 3:16, Rom. 3:21-5:1).

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved (cf. Matt, 23:37, 2Thes. 2:10-13).

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy/blasphemy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved (cf. Heb. 6:4-6, Matt. 12:31).

The orthodox viewpoint opposed to TULIP may be termed Moral Free Will (MFW) and described as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called saving faith (signified by IF in Scripture such as John 8 that tulipists hate), which is manifested as repentance for sin/seeking God’s righteousness or salvation (Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which logically presumes/implies sufficient human volition for sinners to make them morally accountable (Rom. 1:20, Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37), who may become totally depraved via committing apostasy/blasphemy against the HS (per Heb. 6:4-6, 10:19-39, Matt. 12:31).

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is resistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins (John 3:16-18, Rom. 3:21-5:1, Heb. 9:26-28) and Lordship of their surrendered lives.

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on saving faith God’s condition for forgiveness, and cooperating with/surrendering to God's Lordship by accepting His grace through faith is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws (John 6:29, Eph. 2:8-10); it is merely opening His gift.
 
How tulipists kick against the goad of God's Word!
I never knew about the extent of such brain-washing until I joined CC.
Here again are relevant Scriptures for truthseekers:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Lets see you exegete and explain each of those scriptures to manifest their relevance. I will be waiting
 
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The OT believers are and always were members of the Bride of Christ. Abraham, Moses, David etc. were all Born again Christians. They were saved in the same way NT believers are today, we all put our faith in Christ for the remission of our sin and we were saved.
The only difference is, the OT believers looked forward to Christ's coming and we look back, but we were all chosen before the creation of the world.
I agree, David acknowledged the Chosen of God Ps 106:5

That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.

Gill wrote of this verse:

That I may see the good of thy chosen,.... The elect, according to the foreknowledge of God; who are chosen in Christ to holiness and happiness, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth unto salvation by him; the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, both of Jews and Gentiles. The "good" of those is not any goodness of their own, for there is none in them naturally; they are by nature no better than others, none are good, nor do good, no, not one: but the goodness of God laid up for them, and bestowed on them; the blessings of goodness with which Christ is preparing for them; all the good things secured for them in a well ordered covenant; which they partake of in time, and to eternity. To "see" these is not to have a superficial, notional, knowledge of them, as hypocrites may have; or a distant view of them, as Balaam, and the rich man in hell; but to have an experience of them, possess them, and enjoy them.
 
If that old Serpent (Satan) didn't deceive Eve, then mankind wouldn't have been born enslaved to sin and Satan and you wouldn't be asking the question. There's no point in asking "what if" questions, lets just deal with the reality and leave the wishful thinking alone.
I ask rhetorical questions to get you thinking. Think, Eve wasn't born; she was created. She was a sinner. Before her conversation with Satan, she was already thinking about the tree and its fruit. Satan didn't command Eve to eat of the tree. She already wanted to eat of the tree.

The story that Satan rules over us is a fictional narrative that blames the wrong person for our sin. The pretend narrative that you believe allows you to soften your role in your sin. The devil made you do it. When the Lord confronted Adam about eating from the tree, he blamed his wife. We all need someone to blame, or else we will have to confess that we are sinners.
 
No need; the meaning is obvious.
I posted them on this thread for the edification of truthseekers.
But you want me to exegete them to show they dont say what you assume. Thats you putting the work off on me, without you doing anything. Until you first exegete the scriptures you bring to the debate, dont expect me to exegete them for you.
 
But you want me to exegete them to show they dont say what you assume. Thats you putting the work off on me, without you doing anything. Until you first exegete the scriptures you bring to the debate, dont expect me to exegete them for you.

No, I want you to read and believe them as I did, so I amended my belief in P/OSAS that I had been taught.
Because I was a truthseeker, amending my understanding of GW was no work, and searching the Scriptures was/is a pleasure.
 
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U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement/condition such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell (contradicting Eph. 2:8-10).

This is a ridiculous doctrine but essential to the system.

God is not the author of confusion.

The correct and coherent reading of Ephesians 1:4 is that God chose Christ and all who would be united to Him by faith.

The election is corporate and centered “in Him.”
Individuals enter this chosen people when they hear the gospel and believe — precisely what Paul describes happening to the Ephesians in chapter 1 verse 13.
 
You're claiming that salvation is attained by man and God cooperating together to achieve salvation. The problem with that idea is the Lord Jesus said in, John 3:3, a person must be "born again" (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit just to see or desire the Kingdom of God.
No, the Bible does not say we have to be born again BEFORE we can DESIRE to enter the Kingdom God. Often it is a people's spiritual hunger and thirst [their sense of lack] draws them to come. The very misery of living in sin often motivates them to seek the living water.

This is how the prophet can call to the sinner:
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you without money, come, buy, and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost! 2 Why spend money on that which is not bread, and your labor on that which does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of foods.…
(Isaiah 55:1-2)

This call is echoed by Jesus: 37 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
(John 7:37)
God often motivates us to come to Him by our sense of lack and emptiness.

The Fall affected every part of human nature, including the mind, heart, and will. While unbelievers can make everyday choices, they lack the spiritual desire or "moral ability" to choose God.
Spiritual hunger is not moral ability. The sense of captivity and bondage can make a person ready to receive the deliverer

1 Corinthians 2:14, which states that the natural person cannot understand the things of the Spirit because they are "folly to him".

Because faith is a gift and humans are spiritually dead, salvation is entirely a work of God from start to finish. God must first sovereignly change the sinner's heart so that they want to believe the gospel.
When the scriptures describe a person as being NATURAL, the literal meaning of this adjective is SOULISH which means they do not yet have the Holy Spirit but instead are dominated by the desires of their flesh and mind. You seem to think there is no way of reaching that person except to unilaterally change them.
However, when Jesus told the disciples 19 Come, follow Me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men." was He not offering to train them to WORK WITH Him in His redemptive work of saving men? (Matthew 4:19)
It certainly seems that way to me.
He did not tell them "This work is wholly of God and does not involve you or anyone else. In fact, the very idea that you can do anything is arrogant and presumptive."

While the actual salvation of the individual is indeed God's work leading the unsaved to the point of decision is accomplished by the influence of the Spirit as well as the faithful witness of those whose feet have been shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.
God does not have to change the person before they are able to believe the gospel. Rather when they believe God responds by changing them.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
18 All this [all the miraculous transformation] is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the MESSAGE of reconciliation.20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(2 Corinthians 5:17-18)
Notice that giving to us the ministry of reconciliation makes men part of the mission of salvation

As Jesus said, "Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). Paul explains that the problem is not lack of information but lack of spiritual discernment. The gospel seems like foolishness to the natural man because he does not have the Holy Spirit.

The sinner’s condition is not like a man who wants to believe but cannot. It is more like someone who hates the offer and wants nothing to do with it. "You refuse to come to Me, that you may have life" (John 5:40). Why? "Because the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
People who start out in one condition can be changed by God's power
Thats limited atonement
Limited atonement would mean no redemption is available to the vast majority of mankind. In that case preaching a universal gospel that offers benefits and blessings to ANYONE who believes would be deceptive false advertising. It would also make God unjust for offering false hope and for condemning people for following a course of life when God Himself had preordained to bring them to damnation. This doctrine is an abomination. No wonder so many architects of Reformed theology were mass murderers
 
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But God did chose specific individuals for salvation before the creation of the world. This doctrine, known as "unconditional election," asserts that God's choice is based solely on His own sovereign grace, not on anything good He foresaw in the individual.

There are a good number of well known concepts that are wrong.
Immaculate Conception. Tithing. Even losing one's salvation.
Well accepted does not make it correct.

First off.
God does not save what is No Good.

He saves what He knows is Good, but unable to do any good because of the trap it is caught in.
He saves the cripple that can not run in the race, to make that cripple whole, and able to run and win.

........
 
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No, I want you to read and believe them as I did, so I amended my belief in P/OSAS that I had been taught.
Because I was a truthseeker, amending my understanding of GW was no work, and searching the Scriptures was/is a pleasure.
I dont know if you believe them, you cant explain them
 
Limited atonement would mean no redemption is available to the vast majority of mankind. In that case preaching a universal gospel that offers benefits and blessings to ANYONE who believes would be deceptive false advertising. It would also make God unjust for offering false hope and for condemning people for following a course of life when God Himself had preordained to bring them to damnation. This doctrine is an abomination. No wonder so many architects of Reformed theology were mass murderers
THE VERDICT: The Ironclad Scope of John 3:16 and the End of Free-Will Hysterics

The Ultimate Deflection: Notice the text-free meltdown. When my opponent throws John 3:16 out as a blanket proof-text, and I call them on its actual grammatical limits, they completely abandon the Bible. Instead of attempting to open a Greek lexicon or analyze the verse's syntax, they resort to emotional outbursts about "false advertising" and desperate historical smears about the Reformers being "mass murderers."

When your free-will theology cannot survive a basic reading of the words on the page, you are forced to substitute emotional hysterics for scriptural evidence. Let us place John 3:16 and my opponent's emotional charges under the unyielding light of high Calvinist federal theology.



1. Slaying the Universalist Deception of John 3:16

My opponent thinks John 3:16 proves universal redemption. In reality, John 3:16 is one of the premier texts for Particular and Definite Atonement. Let us look at the actual grammar: [1, 2]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
  • The Restrictive Clause: The verse does not say, "God gave His Son so that every single individual in the human race would be saved." It contains a strict, limiting clause: "that whosoever believeth in him..." [1, 2, 3]

  • The High Calvinist Reality: John 3:16 explicitly restricts the ultimate benefits of Christ’s death to a specific group—those who believe. As we have already proven grammatically from 1 John 5:1 and John 1:13, nobody can believe unless they are first born of God. Therefore, the "world" God loves with this saving, reproductive love is the world of the electthe international body of believers chosen out of every nation, tongue, and tribe, as John Gill masterfully outlines in his commentaries. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • If Christ died to save every single individual, but millions perish in hell anyway, then Christ’s blood was shed in vain and His atonement failed. High Calvinism honors the Son by declaring that His sacrifice actually succeeded in saving everyone it was intended for.

2. Crushing the "False Advertising" Fallacy
  • My Opponent's Claim: Preaching a gospel that promises blessings to anyone who believes is "deceptive false advertising" if atonement is limited.
  • The Exposure: This reveals a total lack of theological understanding. The gospel call is an objective statement of absolute legal fact: Whosoever believes shall be saved. That statement is 100% true. If an unregenerate person believed, they would be saved. [1, 2, 3]
  • The issue is not with the proclamation; the issue is with man's total moral inability. As Jesus explicitly says just a few chapters later in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." The external call goes out to all, but the carnal mind hates God and will not come (Rom 8:7). The gospel preaching isn't a scam; it is a mirror that exposes the sinner’s total spiritual bankruptcy and absolute hatred for Christ. [1, 2]

3. Replying Against God: The Arrogance of the Clay
  • My Opponent's Claim: God is "unjust" for condemning people when He preordained their damnation.
  • The Scriptural Sledgehammer: My opponent is asking the exact same arrogant, carnal question that Paul anticipated and crushed 2,000 years ago in Romans 9:19: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
  • And how does the Holy Ghost answer my opponent? Does He apologize? No! Romans 9:20-21 slams the courtroom door shut: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" [1, 2]
  • God does not condemn people innocently. He condemns them for their actual, willful, carnal sins. They are born condemned in Adam (Rom 5:18), they actively choose to sin because of their corrupt nature, and God simply leaves the reprobate to their own chosen destruction to display His unyielding justice (Rom 9:22). Calling God's sovereign decree an "abomination" is a direct, blasphemous assault on the Majesty of Jehovah. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

4. Dismantling the Historical Ad Hominem
  • My Opponent's Claim: "No wonder so many architects of Reformed theology were mass murderers."
  • The Final Charge: When you cannot defeat the theology, you attack the dead men who taught it. This is a pathetic logical fallacy. The truths of Particular Redemption do not belong to John Calvin, Martin Luther, or John Gill—they belong to the Sovereign Holy Ghost who breathed them into the pages of Scripture.



THE CLOSING CHARGE

My opponent wants a helpless god who loves everyone equally but saves no one definitively—a god who sets up a "potential" salvation and then sits on his hands, hoping the dead corpses at the bottom of the spiritual ocean will use their free will to save themselves. [1, 2]

We stand on the finished, unfrustrable triumph of the Sovereign King:
  1. God’s saving love is an omnipotent force that actually quickens those He loves (Eph 2:4-5).
  2. Christ’s death did not make salvation a vague possibility; it legally obtained eternal redemption for His sheep (Heb 9:12, John 10:15).
  3. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth (Rom 9:18). [1, 2, 3, 4]
The text of John 3:16 is locked down. The grammar of the New Testament is absolute. Step out from behind the emotional slurs, opponent, and submit to the Sovereign Potter. Soli Deo Gloria.


 
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those who believe. As we have already proven grammatically from 1 John 5:1 and John 1:13, nobody can believe unless they are first born of God.

Wrong ... nowhere does the Bible assert that nobody can not believe unless they are first born of God and that is certainly not found in those verse.

Regeneration never precedes belief in scripture.

But we know it is futile to correct people who use eisegesis over and over again.
 
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Again, the evidence is so overwhelming that there is no need to explain anything to truthseekers.
However, I intend to keep participating on this dead thread in order to help souls not be misled.
May I suggest you cite one Scripture in support of TULIP and we will begin there here?

Many have been mislead no doubt, deception is alive and well.

Unfortunately, it is not that hard to make scripture mean something it does not mean.. some people are pros at this approach.
 
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But the two English words, "chosen" and "elect" both translate the same Greek word, "elektos." In Ephesians 1, God's choosing cannot mean that the spiritual blessings were chosen, for the very next word following "chose" is "us":
The word "according" takes the context back to the previous verse.
 
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