Calvinism is Gospel !

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No, the Bible does not say we have to be born again BEFORE we can DESIRE to enter the Kingdom God. Often it is a people's spiritual hunger and thirst [their sense of lack] draws them to come. The very misery of living in sin often motivates them to seek the living water.

This is how the prophet can call to the sinner:
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you without money, come, buy, and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost! 2 Why spend money on that which is not bread, and your labor on that which does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of foods.…
(Isaiah 55:1-2)

This call is echoed by Jesus: 37 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
(John 7:37)
God often motivates us to come to Him by our sense of lack and emptiness.


Spiritual hunger is not moral ability. The sense of captivity and bondage can make a person ready to receive the deliverer

When the scriptures describe a person as being NATURAL, the literal meaning of this adjective is SOULISH which means they do not yet have the Holy Spirit but instead are dominated by the desires of their flesh and mind. You seem to think there is no way of reaching that person except to unilaterally change them.
However, when Jesus told the disciples 19 Come, follow Me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men." was He not offering to train them to WORK WITH Him in His redemptive work of saving men? (Matthew 4:19)
It certainly seems that way to me.
He did not tell them "This work is wholly of God and does not involve you or anyone else. In fact, the very idea that you can do anything is arrogant and presumptive."

While the actual salvation of the individual is indeed God's work leading the unsaved to the point of decision is accomplished by the influence of the Spirit as well as the faithful witness of those whose feet have been shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.
God does not have to change the person before they are able to believe the gospel. Rather when they believe God responds by changing them.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
18 All this [all the miraculous transformation] is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the MESSAGE of reconciliation.20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(2 Corinthians 5:17-18)
Notice that giving to us the ministry of reconciliation makes men part of the mission of salvation


People who start out in one condition can be changed by God's power

Limited atonement would mean no redemption is available to the vast majority of mankind. In that case preaching a universal gospel that offers benefits and blessings to ANYONE who believes would be deceptive false advertising. It would also make God unjust for offering false hope and for condemning people for following a course of life when God Himself had preordained to bring them to damnation. This doctrine is an abomination. No wonder so many architects of Reformed theology were mass murderers
I don't think we will find any common ground to agree on anything, as it's clear to me that you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by Arminian theology, which is not supported by the Bible.
It teaches the man centred "saved by works" version of the gospel, while the Bible reveals that Gods elect are saved by grace.
 
There are a good number of well known concepts that are wrong.
Immaculate Conception. Tithing. Even losing one's salvation.
Well accepted does not make it correct.

First off.
God does not save what is No Good.

He saves what He knows is Good, but unable to do any good because of the trap it is caught in.
He saves the cripple that can not run in the race, to make that cripple whole, and able to run and win.

........
That view is unbiblical, because God does not save good people.
Romans 3:10-12 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"
Genesis 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Notice Genesis 6:5 mentions "the wickedness of man" as a whole, that includes you and me and everybody else. There are no good people.

Mark 10:18 "So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God"

The Lord Jesus does not agree with your view, He said only God is good but you obviously don't believe what He said.
 
I am impressed with the lengths that people will go to, to defend a wrong doctrine, how tragic this is also now in the Philippines.

John is writing to believers, these believers are being influenced by Gnosticism.

When one looks at the context of John's letters, his expression "born of God" and what that expression means to how John speaks
it becomes clear he is not at all placing regeneration before initial belief.

So all the grammar in the world is not going to change the fact that John is NOT speaking about the first act of belief.
This is always the same epic fail of this system.

What is clear that 1 John 5:1 is not referring at all to the initial faith which grants a person eternal life, but rather to the ongoing faith which is necessary for sanctification and godliness.
No its not clear !

"Your frantic attempt to invent a 'two-stage faith' and hide behind a historical smoke screen about Gnosticism is a total tactical white flag. Because you are utterly powerless to answer the Greek syntax of 1 John 5:1, you have resorted to inventing definitions that do not exist in the New Testament, openly calling the Apostle John a liar just to protect your free-will philosophy. [1]

Let’s look at the absolute theological and grammatical destruction of your defensive response:

1. Your 'Initial vs. Ongoing Faith' Loophole is a Theological Monstrosity

You confidently assert that 1 John 5:1 'is not referring at all to the initial faith which grants a person eternal life, but rather to the ongoing faith.' Think through the horrific, unscriptural implications of your manufactured definition. [1, 2]

If 1 John 5:1 only applies to 'ongoing faith' and excludes 'initial faith,' then you are claiming that an unregenerate, lost sinner can exercise initial faith and get saved before and without being born of God.

You have just openly flatly contradicted the Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:3:
“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

According to Jesus, a dead sinner cannot see, perceive, or understand the things of the Kingdom to place even an initial millisecond of faith in Christ until they are first born again

. You want a bizarre system where a man gets saved by initial faith, enters the kingdom, and then later down the road gets regenerated for 'sanctification.' That is a theological trainwreck. The text says 'WHOSOEVER' believes—categorically enclosing every single person who confesses Jesus, from their very first breath of initial faith to their final breath of ongoing endurance. [1, 2]
2. The Iron Wall of Greek Grammar You Cannot Climb

You can scream that 'all the grammar in the world won't change the fact,' but your shouting cannot erase the literal tenses inspired by the Holy Spirit. Let's drag you right back to the grammatical wall you are fleeing from:

In 1 John 5:1, the word for 'believeth' is a present active participle (pisteuōn), describing the present-tense action of the human agent. But the word for 'is born' is γεγέννηται (gegennētai), which is the perfect passive indicative tense [Licensed Media Service: Chemical & Molecular Science]. [1, 2, 3]

In Koine Greek, the perfect tense explicitly denotes an action that was completely finalized and accomplished in the PAST, with ongoing results in the present. [1, 2]

Linguistically and textually, the past-tense completed action is the New Birth (Regeneration), and the present-tense ongoing fruit is Faith (Believing). The text sets up an ironclad, unyielding timeline: The only reason a person is currently exercising faith in Christ is because God has already sovereignly and immediately born them again in the past.

3. The Gnostic Context Utterly Explodes Your System


You bring up John fighting Gnosticism as if it helps your case, completely missing the target. The early Gnostics were the ultimate free-will advocates—they believed that man could use his own intellect, mystical 'knowledge,' and human initiative to ascend to God and activate spiritual life.

By writing 1 John 5:1, the Apostle John completely crushed the Gnostics! He laid down an unbending covenant law: Your human confession is not the trigger that forces God's hand; your faith is the visible proof that God has already sovereignly executed heart surgery upon you "+ nothing."

By fighting for human initiative, you are standing with the Gnostics, not with John.
You want a system where a blind man can see the light while he is still blind to get his eyes opened (2 Corinthians 4:4). But Scripture reveals a Sovereign King who immediately opens the blind eyes, and His Gospel brings that glorious, pre-existing life to conscious light (2 Timothy 1:10). Yield to the text, yield to the perfect tense [Licensed Media Service: Chemical & Molecular Science], or admit that you prefer human tradition over the plain words of the Holy Spirit!"


 
I'm still waiting on these passages...
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"Ephesians 1:4
Revelation 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the Beast), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
 
Your 'Initial vs. Ongoing Faith' Loophole is a Theological Monstrosity

Yes we know context is a huge problem for Calvinism.
John was writing to believers.
He is not addressing ordo salutis.


Are you born believer then?

But Ephesians 2:8 makes is clear there is an initial faith that occurs and it is not a gift, but it is THROUGH that initial act of faith, meaning the person responds positively to the message of God's Good News!!

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
 
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Yes we know context is a huge problem for Calvinism.
John was writing to believers.
He is not addressing ordo salutis.


Are you born believer then?

But Ephesians 2:8 makes is clear there is an initial faith that occurs and it is not a gift, but it is THROUGH that initial act of faith, meaning the person responds positively to the message of God's Good News!!

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
You running now !
 
You running now !

I actually understand that these letters are written to believers in various congregations dealing with various problems by different

believers/individuals who use different forms of expressions and that the letters need to be understood as a whole first against a cultural/historical context.....

and NewsFlash they are not written to you.
 
AI does not have the ability to reason like a human,
Duh thats why you have to proof read it, Its still takes work to utilize AI. The poster has to read carefully through what's been analyzed, the poster ids still in control. You have to double check their greek references and everything.
 
Limited atonement would mean no redemption is available to the vast majority of mankind. In that case preaching a universal gospel that offers benefits and blessings to ANYONE who believes would be deceptive false advertising. It would also make God unjust for offering false hope and for condemning people for following a course of life when God Himself had preordained to bring them to damnation. This doctrine is an abomination. No wonder so many architects of Reformed theology were mass murderers

It is an abomination.

Sometimes like they like to sugar coat with palatable language using words like "efficacious" .. however one can see why it is necessary to the system.

If their god chooses whom to save unconditionally, making it very clear he prefers some over others, then why would he atone for the sins for all humanity?

It has to be part of the system.
I think those who support unconditional election by deny limited atonement are not being consistent and sometimes disingenuous.

But yes, it is an abomination and not a Christian doctrine.
 
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Nobody is suggesting that we blame Satan for our sin, we're more than capable of sinning without any help from the Devil.
Satan knew He couldn't deceive Adam, so He went after the weaker vessel. He beguiled her and caused her to sin. There's nothing to suggest that she would have eaten of that tree if the Serpent didn't use His craftiness and cunning to convince her.
She then seduced Adam into joying her by lying to him, just as the Serpent lied to her.

Because they disobeyed God and obeyed Satan, they became subject to His rule and dominion over them. Satan gained legal authority over them and the rest of mankind by default. Adam is our Federal Head, so we're all born as slaves to sin and Satan.

So..... We can choose?
 
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"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"Ephesians 1:4
Revelation 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the Beast), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Elect, salvation, and the book of life is not in the Ephesians passage. Salvation is not the context of Ephesians 1 but the blessings that are found in Christ that come to one who first trusts in Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The word "according" takes the context of verse 4 back to verse 3. The context is spiritual blessings that are found in Christ. These blessings have been chosen before the foundation of the world to be given to all that are in Christ.

The verse does not state, "According as he hath chosen us TO BE in him..."
 
There is a General (or External) Call, this is the universal offer of the Gospel. The Bible commands the message of salvation to be preached to all people, indiscriminately. In this sense, a general invitation is extended, but many reject it or remain indifferent.

But the Effectual (or Internal) Call is an inward work of the Holy Spirit. Humanity is spiritually "dead" in sin, no one can choose God on their own. Therefore, God must sovereignly and effectively "call" individuals. This call opens the heart, changes the will, and always results in repentance, faith, and salvation.


While the Gospel is universally proclaimed to everyone, only the chosen (the "elect") are given the internal, effectual call that truly makes them God's people.

Faith is a gift from God, it's not an inherent choice that a spiritually dead person can make on their own. However, once God regenerates the heart, the individual freely chooses to believe. God's gift and man's choice work together rather than cancelling each other out.

Abiding in Christ is a work of Gods grace, not human effort. The ability to remain in Christ and produce spiritual fruit originates entirely from the Holy Spirit, the merit of Christ's sacrifice, and God's sovereign preservation.

Your suggestion that "If we are Gods people, we are to remain so", is not found in the Bible, it may be your view but it's unbiblical.

Where do these two calls come from? The Bible says we are called, that's it. Then of the many called, few are chosen. I don't see any reason to believe we're puppets, we can choose God, not choose Him or even choose Him and then fall away, all of which are Biblically supported. (2 Chronicles 15:2, Hebrews 6:4-6)
 
That view is unbiblical, because God does not save good people.

I did not say good people.

God knows there would be good to be found in Grace makes a person free of what entraps their soul.

But, even then? Some souls freed by grace, will reject God.
There's the rub.
 
Where do these two calls come from? The Bible says we are called, that's it. Then of the many called, few are chosen. I don't see any reason to believe we're puppets, we can choose God, not choose Him or even choose Him and then fall away, all of which are Biblically supported. (2 Chronicles 15:2, Hebrews 6:4-6)
Do you study scriptures ?
 
1. You Confuse Sovereign Mercy with 'Favoritism'
The Holy Spirit explicitly anticipated and crushed your emotional complaint in Romans 9:14-15:
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
3. Romans 2:5-16 Utterly Condemns Your Free-Will Timeline
Paul states in Romans 2 that God will render to every man according to his deeds, and that those who are contentious and do not obey the truth will face indignation and wrath.

Thanks for finally citing Scripture you think supports tulipism. Let us interpret the ones in Romans by considering their context.

Romans 9:14-15: “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Romans 2:5-16: "Because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath..." [cf. Pro. 29:1]

A systematic study of tulipism might begin well by interpreting Paul’s explanation of the Gospel in his epistle to the Romans, because the context for a proof-text tulipists typically cite regarding salvation/ election (s/e), namely Romans 9:10-24, is the rest of Romans, especially Romans 1-11. {{The post was too long, so some has been omitted.}}


1. Rom. 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that s/e is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.
2. Rom. 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.
3. Rom. 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance (s/e), which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.
4. Rom. 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).
5. Rom. 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Rom. 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).
7. Rom. 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.
8. Rom. 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.
9. Rom. 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.
10. Rom. 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Rom. 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).
12. Rom. 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.
13. Rom. 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.
14. Rom. 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.
15. Rom. 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Rom. 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).
17. Rom. 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.
18. Rom. 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.


29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.
37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).
38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.
39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles, and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.
40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.
42. Romans 11:33-36 concludes Paul’s development of the DOE by acknowledging that God’s mind is unknowable beyond what He reveals.

Which view harmonizes Romans better: TULIP or MFW?
 
I don't think we will find any common ground to agree on anything, as it's clear to me that you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by Arminian theology, which is not supported by the Bible.
It teaches the man centred "saved by works" version of the gospel, while the Bible reveals that Gods elect are saved by grace.

Post #4,518 cites what the Bible supports.
 
Elect, salvation, and the book of life is not in the Ephesians passage. Salvation is not the context of Ephesians 1 but the blessings that are found in Christ that come to one who first trusts in Christ.
Yes Eph 1 is all about Salvation, we know that from Vs 7 and 13, Paul rehearsed with them believers all about their salvation, beginning with the eternal cause of it, Election in Christ. And that was from before the foundation of the world when Chosen in Christ. And Rev 13:8 compliments that sacred notion, for by it we see the was a book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation, no doubt, the names written in that book, sync with them Chosen in Christ before the foundation.
 
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