Revolution in Iran

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cv5 said:
Your preposterous pretensions have been dismantled one after another through the application of legitimate hermeneutics and rigorous scholarship.

And yet, you persist in proffering shabby, biblically illiterate folderol?

I beg you to reconsider your heading and make the necessary course corrections.
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Flattering flourishes and Latinate lambasting aren't refutation — they're rhetorical rouge on a bare face. You've dismissed, decried, and derided, but you still haven't dealt with the one question I actually asked: how is Gabriel's "make reconciliation for iniquity" anything less than the reconciliation Paul says the cross accomplished for all men?

Bluster isn't a burden of proof. Pomposity isn't proof-texting. If the hermeneutics were as rigorous as you claim, you'd be citing chapter and verse instead of stacking synonyms for "wrong." Sneering isn't scholarship, and condescension isn't a commentary.

So I'll ask plainly, minus the theatrics: does substitutionary atonement have an ethnicity, or doesn't it? Answer that, and we'll talk hermeneutics. Until then, you're not dismantling anything — you're dodging.
 
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ZNP said:
Flattering flourishes and Latinate lambasting aren't refutation — they're rhetorical rouge on a bare face. You've dismissed, decried, and derided, but you still haven't dealt with the one question I actually asked: how is Gabriel's "make reconciliation for iniquity" anything less than the reconciliation Paul says the cross accomplished for all men?

Bluster isn't a burden of proof. Pomposity isn't proof-texting. If the hermeneutics were as rigorous as you claim, you'd be citing chapter and verse instead of stacking synonyms for "wrong." Sneering isn't scholarship, and condescension isn't a commentary.

So I'll ask plainly, minus the theatrics: does substitutionary atonement have an ethnicity, or doesn't it? Answer that, and we'll talk hermeneutics. Until then, you're not dismantling anything — you're dodging.
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The fact is, you got absolutely wrecked.
And I could effortlessly debunk that claim just as easily. But I am right now enjoying breakfast, so maybe later.

Oh and was it not you that started and populated that "rapture" thread with 100's of posts?
Yea, that was you alright.

And yet you DO NOT realize that the boundary condition, the demarcation event that TERMINATES this ***PRESENT AGE*** and ushers in the 70th week and then the DOTL aka the ***AGE TO COME***, is the harpazo itself?

That stupendous degree of obliviousness is absolutely astonishing to behold!
 
Churchgoer said:
Agree,

They sure like to play the "race" card.

Pharisees played the same card with Jesus. And Jesus rebuked them as children of Satan.
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"Yes, Gentile believers are blessed with faithful Abraham. Yes, those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s spiritual seed and heirs according to promise. But Abraham had more than one category of promise. The fact that Gentiles share in the spiritual blessing of justification by faith does not make them ethnic Israel, transfer Israel’s land title to them, or turn Jerusalem into the Church"
 
Daniel 9:24 and the Church Age

A Case for Sequential, Ongoing Fulfillment

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” — Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

Daniel 9:24 does not contain a single predicate. It contains six distinct infinitive clauses, set in grammatical parallel: to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Six parallel infinitives describing six distinguishable acts is not, on its face, the natural way to describe one instantaneous event. It is the natural way to describe a coordinated program — related acts unfolding together, but not necessarily collapsing into a single moment on the calendar.

If someone insists that all six clauses refer strictly to what happened at the cross in roughly AD 30–33, the burden of proof runs the other way: it must be shown, not assumed, that six grammatically independent acts are actually one act described six times.

Test the claim against the outer two clauses. Very few interpreters — arguably none holding a serious exegetical position — argue that “finish the transgression” and “anoint the most Holy” both refer to the identical single event as “make an end of sins.” “Anoint the most Holy” is widely read as referring to something else entirely: the anointing of a holy place, a holy person, or a future consecration — not a repetition of Calvary. “Finish the transgression” is routinely tied to Israel’s national sin and its resolution, a matter most interpreters place in relation to Israel’s history and future, not as a synonym for the atonement itself.

If the first and sixth clauses are permitted to point elsewhere — to different referents, different timeframes, even future events — then the objection that the middle clauses must all be pinned to one single moment collapses under its own inconsistency. The interpreter who allows movement at both ends of the verse but insists on total simultaneity in the middle owes an explanation for why the same interpretive latitude stops there.

The fifth clause, “to seal up the vision and prophecy,” poses a direct problem for a strict cross-only reading. To “seal up” vision and prophecy means, at minimum, to close off or complete the revelatory process concerning it. If this clause was fulfilled at the cross, then all vision and prophecy pertaining to Daniel’s subject matter should have ceased at or immediately after AD 30–33.

But the New Testament — including its most extensive prophetic material, the book of Revelation — was written decades after the cross. New vision. New prophecy. If “seal up the vision and prophecy” was completed at the cross, the burden falls on the cross-only position to explain how prophetic revelation continued for another sixty-plus years afterward. The more coherent reading is that this clause, like the others, describes a process reaching its completion at the close of a longer era — not a switch thrown at a single point already passed.
 

4. The New Testament Describes These Acts Being Applied, Not Merely Accomplished​

Scripture itself distinguishes between an act being objectively accomplished once and that same act being subjectively applied across time to individual people. This distinction is not imported from outside the text; Paul states it directly.

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 — “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation... Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.”

Notice the structure: God has already reconciled the world to Himself in Christ — the objective, finished fact. But Paul immediately pivots to a present-tense office: “we are ambassadors.” An ambassador does not announce a treaty once and go silent; an ambassador represents the treaty continuously, for as long as the embassy stands. Every conversion, every believer who comes to Christ during the church age, is the ministry of reconciliation being exercised in real time — the application of a finished work to a person who was not yet born when that work was finished.

Romans 10:14–15 — “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?... and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?”

This is the ministry of reconciliation caught in motion — sent, preached, heard, believed — a chain that by definition operates across time, one person and one generation at a time, not in a single moment.

This is precisely what a salvation testimony is. When a believer testifies to being reconciled to God and receiving righteousness by faith, that testimony is not a report on something that happened at the cross in the abstract — it is a personal, dated, individual instance of Daniel 9:24’s middle clauses being applied. Two thousand years of such testimonies, occurring continuously since Pentecost, are two thousand years of this clause in active operation.

The New Testament is explicit that reconciliation and righteousness are not automatically possessed by all people simply because Christ died. They are given “unto all and upon all them that believe” (Romans 3:22) — a qualification that only makes sense if there is an ongoing process of people believing, across time, during the age of grace.

Romans 1:17 — “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 3:21–22 — “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested... even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.”
Romans 5:17 — “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ.”

Taken together these describe a three-stage, ongoing action: righteousness is being revealed (present, durative — an unfolding disclosure, not a single flash), it stands manifested and open to whoever believes (a completed inauguration with continuing effect), and it is received and lived in by believers as they come to faith, one at a time, throughout the age. This is the mechanism by which “bring in everlasting righteousness” happens historically: not as a legal fact filed away at the cross and left untouched, but as a righteousness continually brought in, person by person, as the gospel is preached and received. The application is not incidental to the clause — the application is what fulfilling the clause looks like in real, historical time. The same logic holds for “make reconciliation for iniquity”: reconciliation is not fulfilled merely by the cross having happened; it is fulfilled as it is administered, offered, and received by “all and upon all them that believe,” generation after generation.

A strict cross-only reading creates a chronological problem it cannot avoid. If the seventieth week (or the relevant fulfillment of these clauses) lands at the cross, then the sixty-ninth week — which Daniel’s own text places at the coming of Messiah the Prince — must somehow connect to the seventieth without an unexplained interval, or the position must posit a gap it does not derive from the text itself. Either the seventy weeks run consecutively, in which case the cross falls mid-stream of a still-unfinished countdown, or a gap must be inserted by assumption rather than shown from the passage.

The church-age reading dissolves this problem rather than patching it. If Daniel 9:24’s middle clauses describe the entire church age — inaugurated at the cross, administered through the ministry of reconciliation, and consummated at the age’s close — then there is no gap to explain away. The sixty-ninth week ends at Messiah’s appearing; the church age itself is the outworking of “make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, and bring in everlasting righteousness” across history; and the seventieth week remains free to attach to events at the close of the age, exactly where Daniel 9:26–27 places the prince who is to come, the covenant, and the abomination of desolation. Nothing has to be inserted. The history of the church age — an unbroken, continuing ministry of reconciliation offered to “all and upon all them that believe” — maps onto Daniel 9:24 without remainder, and the seventieth week is left exactly where the text’s own sequence puts it: still future to the cross, not collapsed into it.

Before working through the details above with someone holding the cross-only view, it is worth putting one question on the table at the outset, since it determines whether the rest of the conversation can go anywhere:

What would you consider evidence against your position — that is, what feature of the text, if present, would lead you to reconsider whether all six clauses are fulfilled strictly at the cross rather than across a longer administration?

If no answer can be given, the position is being held as an axiom rather than a conclusion, and no amount of textual argument will move it. If an answer can be given, that answer becomes the actual point of the discussion — and the case above should be tested directly against it.
 
ZNP said:
If no answer can be given, the position is being held as an axiom rather than a conclusion, and no amount of textual argument will move it. If an answer can be given, that answer becomes the actual point of the discussion — and the case above should be tested directly against it.
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We know that all of this has already been soundly debunked.
But hey, let debunk it again and again. For the truth of the matter must be proclaimed.

The strongest argument is not merely that Daniel 9:24–27 mentions Israel and Jerusalem. It is that every grammatical object, historical event, covenantal concern, geographical reference, and prophetic objective in the passage belongs to Israel’s national program—not to the Gentile-majority mystery Church.

Daniel 9:24–27 is not a prophecy about the Gentile mystery Church. Gabriel identifies its subjects with absolute precision:

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city” (Daniel 9:24).
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Daniel’s people are Israel. Daniel’s holy city is Jerusalem. That should settle the question immediately.

Daniel had been praying about the sins of Israel, the Mosaic covenant, the Babylonian captivity, Jerusalem’s desolation, and the ruined sanctuary. Throughout the chapter he speaks of “Judah,” “Jerusalem,” “all Israel,” “our kings,” “our fathers,” “the law of Moses,” “thy holy mountain,” and “thy sanctuary.” Gabriel’s prophecy is the direct answer to that prayer.

The prophecy therefore concerns:

  • Israel’s national transgression;
  • Jerusalem’s restoration and destruction;
  • the coming of Israel’s Messiah;
  • the Jewish sanctuary;
  • sacrifice and offering;
  • Israel’s final covenantal crisis;
  • the ultimate establishment of everlasting righteousness.
The Church is never named, addressed, described, or made the object of the seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:25 begins with the command to restore and rebuild literal Jerusalem. Verse 26 predicts the cutting off of Messiah and the destruction of “the city and the sanctuary.” Verse 27 speaks of sacrifice and offering being stopped and of the abomination of desolation.

These are unmistakably Jewish realities. The Gentile Church does not possess a Levitical altar, a Jerusalem sanctuary, animal sacrifices, or a Mosaic sacrificial system that an earthly ruler can terminate.

Christ confirms this in Matthew 24:15–21. He places Daniel’s abomination of desolation in “the holy place,” addresses those in Judaea, tells them to flee into the mountains, and refers to Sabbath conditions. Christ did not relocate Daniel’s prophecy into the Church. He anchored it to Judaea, Jerusalem, and the Jewish end-time crisis.

Strictly speaking, Daniel 9:24 names Israel and Jerusalem rather than using the phrase “land of Israel.” Nevertheless, the land is inseparable from the prophecy because the whole chapter concerns Israel’s expulsion from, punishment within, and restoration to the covenant land. Jerusalem, the sanctuary, Judaea, sacrifice, and Israel’s national destiny all place the prophecy geographically within Israel’s prophetic sphere.

The proper framework is therefore:

  • ethnically: Israel;
  • geographically: Jerusalem, Judaea, and Israel’s land;
  • institutionally: the Temple and sacrifices;
  • covenantally: Israel’s transgression and restoration;
  • chronologically: Israel’s prophetic timetable.
The mystery Church belongs to the present age, the Church age of grace. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1 that the Church—Jews and Gentiles united in one Body—was a mystery hidden in previous ages and later revealed through the apostles.

Daniel was not revealing that mystery. He was receiving prophecy concerning Israel, Jerusalem, the sanctuary, Messiah, and Israel’s national future.

This does not mean the Church receives no benefit from Messiah’s death. Christ’s atonement is the basis of salvation for all believers. But benefiting from an event mentioned in a prophecy does not make the Church the grammatical subject of that prophecy.

The Cross provides the basis for reconciliation, but Daniel’s sixfold program has not yet been completed historically for Israel and Jerusalem:

  • to finish the transgression;
  • to make an end of sins;
  • to make reconciliation for iniquity;
  • to bring in everlasting righteousness;
  • to seal up vision and prophecy;
  • to anoint the most holy.
Israel has not yet entered its promised national righteousness. Jerusalem is not yet experiencing the full prophetic blessing described. Vision and prophecy have not been completely fulfilled.

These matters await Israel’s final redemption and the age to come.

The present age is the Church age of grace, during which God is forming one Body from believing Jews and Gentiles. The age to come concerns Messiah’s public kingdom, the restoration of Israel, the fulfilment of the prophets, and the establishment of everlasting righteousness.

The Church occupies the interval following Messiah’s being cut off and before Israel’s final seventieth week. Daniel’s prophetic clock concerns Israel and Jerusalem; the mystery Church is formed during the present age.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum likewise treats the seventy weeks as God’s timetable for the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The Church is a distinct mystery organism. It does not replace Israel, absorb Israel’s covenants, or inherit Israel’s seventieth week.

The attempt to apply Daniel 9:24–27 to the Gentile mystery Church is not sound exegesis. It is textual confiscation.

Gabriel says “thy people”—and the replacement theologian answers, “the Church.”

Gabriel says “thy holy city”—and he answers, “spiritual Jerusalem.”

Gabriel speaks of rebuilding Jerusalem—he imagines the formation of the Church.

Gabriel speaks of the city and sanctuary being destroyed—he converts them into ecclesiastical symbols.

Gabriel speaks of sacrifice and offering—although the Church has neither a Levitical priesthood nor an altar.

Christ places the abomination in Judaea and the holy place—yet the interpreter drags it into the Gentile Church age.

At what point does this cease to be interpretation and become the wholesale replacement of the inspired nouns?

To insert the Church, one must first erase the natural meaning of nearly every controlling term. Israel must cease to mean Israel. Jerusalem must cease to mean Jerusalem. The sanctuary must cease to mean the sanctuary. Sacrifice must cease to mean sacrifice. Judaea must cease to mean Judaea.

Only after emptying the passage of its actual contents can the Church be forced into it.

The mystery Church belongs to the present age of grace. Daniel’s seventieth week belongs to Israel’s resumed prophetic program, centred upon Jerusalem and culminating in the age to come.

The Church receives salvation through Israel’s Messiah, but it does not thereby become Israel, inherit Israel’s national identity, seize Jerusalem’s prophetic timetable, or transform Israel’s final week into Church history.

Daniel 9:24–27 means exactly what Gabriel said:

Seventy weeks are determined upon Daniel’s people and Daniel’s holy city.

Daniel’s people are Israel.

Daniel’s holy city is Jerusalem.

The sanctuary is the Jewish sanctuary.

The sacrifices are Jewish sacrifices.

The final crisis is centred in Judaea.

The conclusion is Israel’s national redemption and Messiah’s kingdom in the age to come.

The Gentile mystery Church is not the subject of the prophecy. It is not named, described, addressed, or allotted even one of the seventy weeks. Any theology that cannot preserve those basic distinctions has not interpreted Daniel 9—it has overwritten it.
 
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cv5 said:
We know that all of this has already been soundly debunked.
But hey, let debunk it again and again. For the truth of the matter must be proclaimed.

The strongest argument is not merely that Daniel 9:24–27 mentions Israel and Jerusalem. It is that every grammatical object, historical event, covenantal concern, geographical reference, and prophetic objective in the passage belongs to Israel’s national program—not to the Gentile-majority mystery Church.

Daniel 9:24–27 is not a prophecy about the Gentile mystery Church. Gabriel identifies its subjects with absolute precision:


Daniel’s people are Israel. Daniel’s holy city is Jerusalem. That should settle the question immediately.

Daniel had been praying about the sins of Israel, the Mosaic covenant, the Babylonian captivity, Jerusalem’s desolation, and the ruined sanctuary. Throughout the chapter he speaks of “Judah,” “Jerusalem,” “all Israel,” “our kings,” “our fathers,” “the law of Moses,” “thy holy mountain,” and “thy sanctuary.” Gabriel’s prophecy is the direct answer to that prayer.

The prophecy therefore concerns:

  • Israel’s national transgression;
  • Jerusalem’s restoration and destruction;
  • the coming of Israel’s Messiah;
  • the Jewish sanctuary;
  • sacrifice and offering;
  • Israel’s final covenantal crisis;
  • the ultimate establishment of everlasting righteousness.
The Church is never named, addressed, described, or made the object of the seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:25 begins with the command to restore and rebuild literal Jerusalem. Verse 26 predicts the cutting off of Messiah and the destruction of “the city and the sanctuary.” Verse 27 speaks of sacrifice and offering being stopped and of the abomination of desolation.

These are unmistakably Jewish realities. The Gentile Church does not possess a Levitical altar, a Jerusalem sanctuary, animal sacrifices, or a Mosaic sacrificial system that an earthly ruler can terminate.

Christ confirms this in Matthew 24:15–21. He places Daniel’s abomination of desolation in “the holy place,” addresses those in Judaea, tells them to flee into the mountains, and refers to Sabbath conditions. Christ did not relocate Daniel’s prophecy into the Church. He anchored it to Judaea, Jerusalem, and the Jewish end-time crisis.

Strictly speaking, Daniel 9:24 names Israel and Jerusalem rather than using the phrase “land of Israel.” Nevertheless, the land is inseparable from the prophecy because the whole chapter concerns Israel’s expulsion from, punishment within, and restoration to the covenant land. Jerusalem, the sanctuary, Judaea, sacrifice, and Israel’s national destiny all place the prophecy geographically within Israel’s prophetic sphere.

The proper framework is therefore:

  • ethnically: Israel;
  • geographically: Jerusalem, Judaea, and Israel’s land;
  • institutionally: the Temple and sacrifices;
  • covenantally: Israel’s transgression and restoration;
  • chronologically: Israel’s prophetic timetable.
The mystery Church belongs to the present age, the Church age of grace. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1 that the Church—Jews and Gentiles united in one Body—was a mystery hidden in previous ages and later revealed through the apostles.

Daniel was not revealing that mystery. He was receiving prophecy concerning Israel, Jerusalem, the sanctuary, Messiah, and Israel’s national future.

This does not mean the Church receives no benefit from Messiah’s death. Christ’s atonement is the basis of salvation for all believers. But benefiting from an event mentioned in a prophecy does not make the Church the grammatical subject of that prophecy.

The Cross provides the basis for reconciliation, but Daniel’s sixfold program has not yet been completed historically for Israel and Jerusalem:

  • to finish the transgression;
  • to make an end of sins;
  • to make reconciliation for iniquity;
  • to bring in everlasting righteousness;
  • to seal up vision and prophecy;
  • to anoint the most holy.
Israel has not yet entered its promised national righteousness. Jerusalem is not yet experiencing the full prophetic blessing described. Vision and prophecy have not been completely fulfilled.

These matters await Israel’s final redemption and the age to come.

The present age is the Church age of grace, during which God is forming one Body from believing Jews and Gentiles. The age to come concerns Messiah’s public kingdom, the restoration of Israel, the fulfilment of the prophets, and the establishment of everlasting righteousness.

The Church occupies the interval following Messiah’s being cut off and before Israel’s final seventieth week. Daniel’s prophetic clock concerns Israel and Jerusalem; the mystery Church is formed during the present age.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum likewise treats the seventy weeks as God’s timetable for the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The Church is a distinct mystery organism. It does not replace Israel, absorb Israel’s covenants, or inherit Israel’s seventieth week.

The attempt to apply Daniel 9:24–27 to the Gentile mystery Church is not sound exegesis. It is textual confiscation.

Gabriel says “thy people”—and the replacement theologian answers, “the Church.”

Gabriel says “thy holy city”—and he answers, “spiritual Jerusalem.”

Gabriel speaks of rebuilding Jerusalem—he imagines the formation of the Church.

Gabriel speaks of the city and sanctuary being destroyed—he converts them into ecclesiastical symbols.

Gabriel speaks of sacrifice and offering—although the Church has neither a Levitical priesthood nor an altar.

Christ places the abomination in Judaea and the holy place—yet the interpreter drags it into the Gentile Church age.

At what point does this cease to be interpretation and become the wholesale replacement of the inspired nouns?

To insert the Church, one must first erase the natural meaning of nearly every controlling term. Israel must cease to mean Israel. Jerusalem must cease to mean Jerusalem. The sanctuary must cease to mean the sanctuary. Sacrifice must cease to mean sacrifice. Judaea must cease to mean Judaea.

Only after emptying the passage of its actual contents can the Church be forced into it.

The mystery Church belongs to the present age of grace. Daniel’s seventieth week belongs to Israel’s resumed prophetic program, centred upon Jerusalem and culminating in the age to come.

The Church receives salvation through Israel’s Messiah, but it does not thereby become Israel, inherit Israel’s national identity, seize Jerusalem’s prophetic timetable, or transform Israel’s final week into Church history.

Daniel 9:24–27 means exactly what Gabriel said:

Seventy weeks are determined upon Daniel’s people and Daniel’s holy city.

Daniel’s people are Israel.

Daniel’s holy city is Jerusalem.

The sanctuary is the Jewish sanctuary.

The sacrifices are Jewish sacrifices.

The final crisis is centred in Judaea.

The conclusion is Israel’s national redemption and Messiah’s kingdom in the age to come.

The Gentile mystery Church is not the subject of the prophecy. It is not named, described, addressed, or allotted even one of the seventy weeks. Any theology that cannot preserve those basic distinctions has not interpreted Daniel 9—it has overwritten it.
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Substitutionary atonement has no ethnicity — that was never in dispute. Melchizedek's priesthood makes the point precisely: it isn't self-referential, it exists to save others, without regard to lineage. But a priesthood that saves universally can still operate within a covenant timetable addressed to a specific people. Daniel 9:24 names "thy people" and "thy holy city" as the subject of the seventy weeks — that's grammar, not a doctrine of salvation. The cross saves everyone. The verse still names Israel and Jerusalem. Those aren't in tension. Address the nouns.
 
cv5 said:
"Yes, Gentile believers are blessed with faithful Abraham. Yes, those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s spiritual seed and heirs according to promise. But Abraham had more than one category of promise. The fact that Gentiles share in the spiritual blessing of justification by faith does not make them ethnic Israel, transfer Israel’s land title to them, or turn Jerusalem into the Church"
Click to expand...
You are correct.
Ethnicity don't matter.

Jesus blood covenant matters.

Earthly jerusalem don't matter. Heavenly temple matters. Jesus believers are the temple of God. Holy spirit dwell in us. How blessed we are!!!! Thank you Lord.

Literal red heifer don't matter. Jesus the lamb of God matters.

Anyone reject Jesus is a true gentile, pagan!!!
 
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ZNP said:
Substitutionary atonement has no ethnicity — that was never in dispute. Melchizedek's priesthood makes the point precisely: it isn't self-referential, it exists to save others, without regard to lineage. But a priesthood that saves universally can still operate within a covenant timetable addressed to a specific people. Daniel 9:24 names "thy people" and "thy holy city" as the subject of the seventy weeks — that's grammar, not a doctrine of salvation. The cross saves everyone. The verse still names Israel and Jerusalem. Those aren't in tension. Address the nouns.
Click to expand...
Here, let us pray together:

Act 1:6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 3:21 - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Lord Jesus, Messiah Kinsman Redeemer of your people the Sons of Jacob, hearken unto the plea of your servant Peter and fulfill Your prophetic will speedily, for surely You will restore the Kingdom to Israel as You have said by all of Your holy prophets since the world began.
 

Romans 9​

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 
ZNP said:
Substitutionary atonement has no ethnicity....
Click to expand...
Substitutionary atonement is the price paid by the Go’el at His First Coming for the redemption of Israel and the land. The benefits of this atonement are fully realized, and the Messianic Kingdom restored, upon Israel’s national repentance and acceptance of her Messiah.
 
Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Revelation 3
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 
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cv5 said:
Here, let us pray together:

Act 1:6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 3:21 - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Lord Jesus, Messiah Kinsman Redeemer of your people the Sons of Jacob, hearken unto the plea of your servant Peter and fulfill Your prophetic will speedily, for surely You will restore the Kingdom to Israel as You have said by all of Your holy prophets since the world began.
Click to expand...
Lord Jesus, thank you for the prophet Daniel and the word given to us that is a lamp unto our feet. We thank you that 70 weeks were determined upon your people during the days of Jeremiah and Daniel and their failure to obey your word explains why they were expelled from your Land for seventy years to finish that transgression. We also thank you that seventy weeks from that transgression being fulfilled you made an end to sins. We also thank you that during the church age it has been exactly four more periods of 70 weeks in which the ministry of reconciliation, and bringing in the eternal kingdom based on righteousness, and sealing up the vision of the New Testament as well as the prophecy of the New testament have been done and this brought us to the 2006. During the church age, signified as "seven years" in the construction of Solomon's temple, you built the church as the temple of God. You then revealed over the next 13 years how crooked and corrupt the worldly system as a counterfeit to You is in building their own palace. The mortgage meltdown, the corrupt bankers, Bernie Madoff, etc. But while the world was grasping for riches your genuine believers were putting their treasure in heaven. Then in 2019 we began a seven year period of dedicating the temple. Those who have stood with you have sacrificed jobs, homes, family and friends to stand with the truth. Then in 2026 we'll begin the second half of this 14 year dedication, fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles, the wedding of the Lord. We thank you that Daniel would give us the year of Artaxerxes Wall decree, and the year of Jesus crucifixion, and the year of the ministry of reconciliation becoming the official church doctrine, and the of the dust-veil event, and the year of the Great Schism, and the year o Erasmus's Greek NT as well as the Ottoman capture of Jerusalem, the year the reformation began bringing us to the year Saddam Hussein is executed and a 20 year period prefigured in Solomon building the temple, his palace, and the dedication of the temple leading right up to the last seven years of the age known as the seventieth week. This prophecy is truly amazing proving that you alone are God telling us the end from the beginning. Amen.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And thank you that you hid this from the proud and arrogant and revealed it unto babes in Christ.
 
cv5 said:
Substitutionary atonement is the price paid by the Go’el at His First Coming for the redemption of Israel and the land. The benefits of this atonement are fully realized, and the Messianic Kingdom restored, upon Israel’s national repentance and acceptance of her Messiah.
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So then you are claiming Jesus sacrifice did not redeem the Gentile church? You have made yourself quite clear, I simply reject your doctrine as being one and the same with the concision, the doctrine of the Judaizers that Paul refers to in the book of Galatians.
 
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ZNP said:
So then you are claiming Jesus sacrifice did not redeem the Gentile church? You have made yourself quite clear, I simply reject your doctrine as being one and the same with the concision, the doctrine of the Judaizers that Paul refers to in the book of Galatians.
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Perish the thought! I am not making any such outrageous claim, but rather it is unassailable Biblical truth that the individual members of the mystery (mostly gentile) Church of this PRESENT AGE are in fact being redeemed moment by moment.

UNTIL.......

Rom 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Quick question: Are you losing your sensibilities? Asking for a friend.
 
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