refers to justification not sanctification or perseverance or eternal salvation
thks
Saved by faith alone?
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thks
then explain these
acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Philippians 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to mysalvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
thks
Regardless of how clear the verses you present, those of the faith alone regeneration theology will find a way to explain it away.
They will dismiss any uncomfortable truth you present.
I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that even if Jesus Himself would say verbatim "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" they would attempt to brush it aside.
Faith is an action, triggered by God. By faith Noah build the ark. God used that ark to save Noah and family.
By faith the thieve on right side of Jesus spoke his last words, and Jesus saved him because of that.
By faith Paul turn around stopped persecuting Christians.
....
By faith the thieve on right side of Jesus spoke his last words, and Jesus saved him because of that.
By faith Paul turn around stopped persecuting Christians.
....
If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11 :25,26 etc..) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well (Mark 16:16) However, who did Jesus say would be condemned? He who is not baptized or he who does not believe? (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18) *Hermeneutics.
You cannot use one clause to negate the other clause in the same sentence.
*Grammar 101.
IOW, the first clause of Mark 16:16 has no purpose in the sentence if negated by the second clause. If baptism has no purpose in salvation then its insertion is nonsensical.
You are forced to use this warped reasoning on this sentence to protect your position not the scriptures. You would never dream of using this reasoning on any other sentence.
Example:
Whoever is a native born citizen and at least 35 years old can run for president but anyone who is not native born will be rejected.
Would the lack of "at least 35 years old" in the second clause mean that a 30 year old can run for president?
*American Civics.
Almost the entire Book of Proverbs would be meaningless since most verses are two clauses that are not exact.
Nothing in scripture is safe with this type of reasoning.
The second clause clarifies the first clause and does not negate it. A better analogy would be, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well but he who does not take his medication will remain sick."
Of course, it logically follows that we wash down medication with water, yet if no water is available and we take it dry (been there, done that) we will still be made well BECAUSE OF THE MEDICATION (and not because of the water). It's the same with baptism.
It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get water baptized before your death, you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b) ..but he who does not believe will be condemned and is also in harmony with ( John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)
*NOWHERE does the Bible say, "water baptized or condemned.
We are not talking about something as mundane as how to swallow a pill.
Your "He who takes his medication and washes it down" analogy is a purposeful redundant attempt at twisting the meaning of what Jesus meant when He said "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved".
It logically follows that whoever does not believe will not be baptized. Attempting to find unusual exceptions to the rule only proves the rule.
NOWHERE does the Bible say, "faith alone or condemned".
NOWHERE does the Bible say, "we are saved by faith alone".
Mark 16:16 is not a redundancy.
My analogy stands.
You're analogy falls flat on its face. There have been many people over the years who don't truly believe in Jesus unto salvation (do not trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation) yet get water baptized anyway because they are trusting in water baptism for salvation. Particularly folks who attend various false religions and cults.
In Mark 16:16, Jesus said - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE did Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Can we really take Acts 22:16 to mean that the waters of baptism actually wash away our sins? The Bible makes clear elsewhere that it is the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from sin:
(1Jn 1:7 NKJV) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Baptism is a symbol of such cleansing. If it actually cleansed from sin, Jesus would not have needed to be crucified, and John would not have written 1 John 1:7.
I'm not clear why you quoted Philippians 1:19, as the context shows Paul is not speaking about baptism, but the preaching of the gospel:
(Php 1:18-21 NKJV) What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul was already saved when he wrote Philippians - he introduces himself as a bondservant of Jesus Christ. He is writing from prison, so the salvation he writes of is likely to be deliverance from his chains.
Thats a point to address wash water and Blood what baptism is witch? Many only seem to know a religious one ceremony.i give that one a water baptism .Now the Jesus king baptism the blood debt is your payment. But The blood is a Covering Also could call it Wash that dates back to ot times or go into the phrase Parah Adumah (פָרָה אֲדֻמָּה), meaning the "Red Heifer."
- The Remedy for Death: The primary purpose of the Red Heifer was to create a purification agent. The cow was completely burned to ashes outside the camp, and those ashes were mixed with "living water". This water was the only biblical substance that could cleanse a man or a priest who had become ritually defiled by coming into contact with a dead body.
- The Ultimate Paradox: The ritual is considered a chok—a divine law that transcends man logic. The paradox is that the clean priest who slaughtered and burned the heifer became ritually unclean by doing so, yet the resulting ashes made the unclean person completely clean.
- The Messianic Connection: Christian teaches that the Parah Adumah was a direct prophetic shadow of Jesus Anointed One. Just as the flawless red heifer was taken outside the camp to be slaughtered to break the curse of death, Jesus was taken outside the gates of Jerusalem to be crucified to permanently wash away sin and conquer death. The Prophetic Timeline
The ultimate mystery of the Red Heifer ceremony is that it worked in reverse for the leaders. The clean priest who prepared the ashes became ritually unclean until evening, while the unclean person who was sprinkled with the ashes became completely clean. [1,
The ultimate mystery of the Red Heifer ceremony is that it worked in Reverse for the leaders. The Clean Priest who prepared the ashes became ritually unclean until evening, while the unclean person who was sprinkled with the ashes became completely clean.
Do not be obtuse.
No one is suggesting that physical water is washing away sins. Water baptism is the moment that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from our sins.
Unless you are Catholic, the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ is metaphorical not literal.
Water baptism is not metaphorical, it is literally the moment but not the cause of the remission of sins.
Again, baptism is the moment (point in time) of the cleansing not the symbol of the cleansing.
When the snake bitted Hebrews gazed upon the bronze serpent they were healed. The gazing was not a symbol of the healing but the moment of the healing.
You could not simply have faith that the gazing would heal but physically gazing was needed.
I was not being obtuse. Plenty of us here on Christian Chat don't believe that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration. You mention gazing at the bronze snake to be healed of snake bites. The equivalent in the New Testament is looking to Jesus Christ to be saved:
(Joh 3:14-15 NKJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Amen! John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
redemption not eternal salvation
eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
you base alot on eph 2 so lets see what it is about!
what are the possibilities?
a) the general redemption
b) our personal salvation
eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
quickend or brought to life
brought to life in grace Jn 1:16
meaning that general redemption by which Christ makes our justification possible
eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
eph 2:9 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 not works
refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ without our participation "works"
redemption is a part of the process of salvation so it is identified as salvation or the salvation in the past tense
eph 2:8 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 all use the past tense of salvation or "saved" all refer to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us!
eph 2:8 excludes our participation in the general redemption "not of yourselves"!
eph 2:8 titus 3:5 & 2 tim 1:9 all refer to the general redemption, it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”
not our personal salvation but the general redemption!
redemption and justification are not salvation, but parts in the process of salvation!
It does not end with justification as some think, having the gift of justice and righteousness there must be the performance of the deeds of righteousness and these are not dead works, but totally of grace!
Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
thks
So do you believe that someone can be redeemed but not saved?redemption not eternal salvation
eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;