OSAS, When does salvation take place?

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Gideon300 said:
What ifs.............. Do you know someone who has done this? I've met a number of believers who have had great loss and great grief. Some have temporarily been overcome by grief. They have all returned to God sooner or later. And that is because there is an inner power that draws them back in spite of what they've endured.

There are countless make-believers who call themselves Christian. The question is does God recognise them? Unless they are born again, no He does not. Being born into a Christian family is not enough. Believing the right doctrine is not enough. Believing the facts about Christ is not enough.
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I literally know someone who turned from God because their niece died when she was very young and he blamed God and called Him evil for letting a child die when he prayed for her to live. So you can attack my question, but it still stands. An answer HAS to apply to every single scenario, so if you attack the scenario, then your answer cannot be the truth if theres a problem with it due to the scenario I posed.
 
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Gideon300 said:
Tell me exactly how you imitate Christ?
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you simply do what he asked us to do., its all in the gospels but I am willing to tell you about the main things Jesus was teaching, would be that be alright with you?, I would gladly start a new thread for this purpose. Knowing Jesus is Knowing God. the posts will be based on scripture and not my personal interpretation, we all have beliefs, I follow no church what I will post will be all based on what he said in proper context or I would. i may start it today and will let you know.
 
Gideon300 said:
Why does everything you say revolve around what believers must do? Do you not understand that faith depends entirely on what God has already done?

Romans 8:30-34

"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us."

Galatians 2:16

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."​
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of course it all depends about what God and Jesus did never said the contrary I confirm it! i will explain in a series of post about Jesus I just hope you will read it, again you quote Paul in Galatians, romans, seldom do you quote Christ, why is that?

I am not your enemy I shake people up sometimes so they listen, I hate doing so but I must. I do this out of Love not for my own gain. People receive Gifts, I have a few, one is the gift of knowledge and I want to share what was made known to me by the Holy Spirit.

To be continued in the posts about Jesus and his teachings, in a new thread, you can catch me there if you want to discuss anything.

Peace Brother Gideon.
 
HeIsHere said:
How about Jesus did it all. 100%

You do understand there is one requirement for salvation and following in His footsteps, as in our behaviour to emulate Him, is not how one receives the gift of salvation.
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Then tell us in your words how to obtain salvation, ill be waiting, please complement with verses to back up your written words. thanl you.
 
Delvianna said:
I literally know someone who turned from God because their niece died when she was very young and he blamed God and called Him evil for letting a child die when he prayed for her to live. So you can attack my question, but it still stands. An answer HAS to apply to every single scenario, so if you attack the scenario, then your answer cannot be the truth if theres a problem with it due to the scenario I posed.
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How do you know this person was ever with God? Can you read hearts?
 
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@NightTwister

This is a logic-based argument.

You cant argue, "You can't know for certain that this person was truly saved," while also arguing, "You can know for certain they were never saved because they walked away." Those two claims use the same standard of certainty, but apply it inconsistently depending on which conclusion you want it to be.

If we cannot know someone's heart well enough to say they were truly saved, then we also cannot know someone's heart well enough to declare with certainty that they were never saved.

The fundamental claim of OSAS is that salvation is secure once a person has genuinely believed in Christ. However, the argument often introduces a qualification afterward: "If they walk away, they were never truly saved."

But that creates a problem: what determines whether their belief was genuine?

If belief in Jesus is the condition for salvation, then someone who professes faith in Jesus would have to be regarded as saved unless there is another biblical condition being added. Otherwise, you have to define:
  • How much belief is required?
  • What level of sincerity makes belief genuine?
  • Where is the biblical mile marker that separates "true belief" from "false belief"?
Without a biblical standard for that distinction, saying "they were never saved" becomes an unfalsifiable argument, because any example of someone leaving the faith can simply be reclassified after the fact.

On the other hand, if the argument is that salvation is not based on belief alone but also requires perseverance, obedience, or continued faithfulness, then that changes the foundation of the argument. Now the question becomes: how much perseverance or obedience is required?

If obedience is evidence of genuine salvation, then what happens when someone who has lived obediently later abandons the faith? Was their obedience insufficient? Was their faith never genuine? Again, what is the biblical standard that determines the difference?

Under strict OSAS logic, if a person genuinely believed in Christ and was saved, then their later rejection of Christ would not change their saved status. If their later rejection proves they were never saved, then the argument must explain what additional condition beyond belief determines whether salvation was ever real. And then that runs into another problem, how do you bring others to Christ and explain what salvation is without it getting convoluted? "Oh you believe? Well, you might not believe enough!" Then that goes against having confidence of your salvation where you could never truly know if your belief was good enough for salvation because according to you, circumstances cannot change your belief, it just shows you never believed in the first place which makes absolutely no logical sense.
 
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2Christ said:
I don't think Jesus separates knowing Him from obeying Him. Throughout His teaching, He joins the two together.
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Hello again 2Christ, in a practical sense, that's true, I suppose, but true obedience is only possible for those who have ~already~ come to know Him (as new creatures in Him .. 2 Corinthians 5:17). IOW, no established personal relationship with the Lord = no obedience to the Lord ... as the future exchange between the Lord, and those standing before Him at the Judgment, make clear for us (Matthew 7:22-23).

That said, our obedience is among the many wondrous things that always accompanies (results from) our salvation, which means that our choice to walk in obedience before Him (or not) is, therefore, a great indicator of whether we are truly saved (or not).

As the Bible tells us, we are saved by Him and by what He did for us/on our behalf, alone (by His mercy and by His grace, through faith .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), but our being saved and created as new creatures in Him is not the end of things, but the beginning (e.g. v10 below) :)

Ephesians 2​
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ​
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ​
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ​

So, our "works" do not/cannot save us, nor can they keep us saved, rather, they are simply part of the wondrous fruit that results from both our justification and our ongoing sanctification, in Him/by Him (Philippians 1:6).

Amazingly, He allows us to come alongside of Him and participate (in a sense) in our ongoing sanctification, but only in this sense, that we "work out" the salvation that God has already worked in us (and continues to work in us, as our Sanctifier).

I think that Dr. Packer has great things to say about this, and here is part of it:

In regeneration, God implants desires that were not there before: desire for God, for holiness, and for the hallowing and glorifying of God’s name in this world; desire to pray, worship, love, serve, honor, and please God; desire to show love and bring benefit to others. ​
​
In sanctification, the Holy Spirit “works in you to will and to act” according to God’s purpose; what He does is prompt you to “work out your salvation” (i.e., express it in action) by fulfilling these new desires (Phil. 2:12–13). Christians become increasingly Christlike as the moral profile of Jesus (the “fruit of the Spirit”) is progressively formed in them (2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; 5:22–25). ~Packer, J.I., Concise Theology​

So, our "works" do not save us, nor do they sanctify us, as God (alone) is the One who does both. Rather, they are an outward expression and demonstration of the mighty saving and sanctifying work that He has already done, and is continuing to do, in us, as both our Savior ~and~ our Sanctifier.

That's enough for now, but I hope to return shortly and finish my reply to you (Dv).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
 
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Don't presume anyone who's faking it would be able to even cast out demons in the first place, because a counterfeit faith will only produce counterfeit works.
These "Lord, Lord" people who aren't accepted are megapastors with corrupt ministries, sorcerers who use such things as 'christian divination' and other un-biblical witchcraft, false prophets who speak their own presumptions, and all sorts of 'ordained preisthood' people who perform things 'exorcisms' and chant phrases in latin, but don't actually know Gods way.
 
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Delvianna said:
@NightTwister

This is a logic-based argument.

You cant argue, "You can't know for certain that this person was truly saved," while also arguing, "You can know for certain they were never saved because they walked away." Those two claims use the same standard of certainty, but apply it inconsistently depending on which conclusion you want it to be.

If we cannot know someone's heart well enough to say they were truly saved, then we also cannot know someone's heart well enough to declare with certainty that they were never saved.

The fundamental claim of OSAS is that salvation is secure once a person has genuinely believed in Christ. However, the argument often introduces a qualification afterward: "If they walk away, they were never truly saved."

But that creates a problem: what determines whether their belief was genuine?

If belief in Jesus is the condition for salvation, then someone who professes faith in Jesus would have to be regarded as saved unless there is another biblical condition being added. Otherwise, you have to define:
  • How much belief is required?
  • What level of sincerity makes belief genuine?
  • Where is the biblical mile marker that separates "true belief" from "false belief"?
Without a biblical standard for that distinction, saying "they were never saved" becomes an unfalsifiable argument, because any example of someone leaving the faith can simply be reclassified after the fact.

On the other hand, if the argument is that salvation is not based on belief alone but also requires perseverance, obedience, or continued faithfulness, then that changes the foundation of the argument. Now the question becomes: how much perseverance or obedience is required?

If obedience is evidence of genuine salvation, then what happens when someone who has lived obediently later abandons the faith? Was their obedience insufficient? Was their faith never genuine? Again, what is the biblical standard that determines the difference?

Under strict OSAS logic, if a person genuinely believed in Christ and was saved, then their later rejection of Christ would not change their saved status. If their later rejection proves they were never saved, then the argument must explain what additional condition beyond belief determines whether salvation was ever real. And then that runs into another problem, how do you bring others to Christ and explain what salvation is without it getting convoluted? "Oh you believe? Well, you might not believe enough!" Then that goes against having confidence of your salvation where you could never truly know if your belief was good enough for salvation because according to you, circumstances cannot change your belief, it just shows you never believed in the first place which makes absolutely no logical sense.
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You can't say they walked away because you don't know if they were ever saved, therefore you don't know if they were ever in the place to walk away. Basic logic.
 
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NightTwister said:
You can't say they walked away because you don't know if they were ever saved, therefore you don't know if they were ever in the place to walk away. Basic logic.
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Guess you decided to ignore the rest of what I said if this is your response. Good luck to you.
 
legion said:
All the references people throw at this have glaring erres in logic. As mentioned above the text does say you can't loose,. Or the other response "can't be snatched from His hand. Again i say, throw away, willingly jump out of His hand.
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This argument implies an ability to jump into His hand. When one surrenders to another, he ceases his struggle against them and succumbs to capture. However, looking up the synonyms of "seizure" and to find the word I wanted, "capture," some of its antonyms stood out, "ransoming," and "liberation," which distinguishes what happens at God's hand in opposition to an unbeliever's default status. God sets the captive free, yet not to make him a slave but to make him a son! So, if God regards him as a son, why then should we regard ourselves redeemed again to slavery? If we looked at it as such, wouldn't that make it all the more inevitable that we would seek an escape?
 
2Christ said:
Jesus said, "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV) He also said, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me." (John 14:21, ASV) And again, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10, ASV) So the question is not whether a relationship with Christ is important. It certainly is. The question is how Jesus says that relationship is ~shown and continued~. His answer is obedience.
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Hello again 2Christ, I certainly agree that our obedience (or the lack thereof) helps to reveal who we really are (true believers or make-believers), and that the quality and consistency of our obedience is a pretty good measure of where our daily walk is at. However, in what way/ways do you also believe that it is our obedience that secures 1. our ongoing salvation and 2. the ongoing AND growing personal relationship that we now enjoy with Him :unsure: Thanks :)

2Christ said:
Matthew 7 itself makes this clear. Jesus does not simply say, "I never knew you." He also gives the reason for His judgment: "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV). If "I never knew you" were the whole explanation, there would have been no need to add that they were workers of lawlessness. Jesus deliberately includes both. They claimed to serve Him, but their lives were marked by disobedience.
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I don't believe that I said that "I never knew you" is the "whole explanation", but the "key to everything else" instead, because it's from that (the loving, personal relationship that we have with Him & that He established with us) that everything else in the Christian life flows (e.g. "apart from Me you can do nothing" .. e.g. John 15:5b).

As for the works that the many (in v22) were claiming to do, none of them are works of iniquity ~in and of themselves~, of course, but they were declared to be such by the Lord because 1. He never knew them, and likewise then 2. they never knew Him. So, these "works" that they claimed to do in His Name, even if they actually made a show of doing them, could not have been done in accordance with His will and/or by His power because, again, He ~never~ knew them.

2Christ said:
I also don't think Scripture supports the idea that someone who once truly served God could never later fall away.
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If not for God and the promises that He made to us (to keep those of us who are truly His, safe), I would agree with you about that, but His promises to us remain (e.g. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25).

Many other verses and passages lead me to the same conclusion, such as those found in John 6. For instance, here's an excerpt (and summary of sorts) from John 6:37-40,

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day".​
​
This is not to say that the other side has no verses of its own to support its POV, you do, which is why I believe both sides need to be extremely careful whenever we discuss such matters, especially publicly (for instance, some of the things that the Lord says to us in John 15 are the most concerning from my POV, but we'll need to continue this discussion later because I need to go now).

I may or may not be able to return later tonight. If I cannot, hopefully I will be able to finish replying to the rest of your post tomorrow (and I look forward to discussing it with you further too :)).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - although it has little to do with what we've been discussing here of late, I think that you may enjoy the following Christian quote, not because it's one of my very favorites (it is), but because I've found that it has always proven to be the right thing to do, especially when the need arises to make particularly difficult decisions.

Be Obedient.jpg​
 
Delvianna said:
I literally know someone who turned from God because their niece died when she was very young and he blamed God and called Him evil for letting a child die when he prayed for her to live. So you can attack my question, but it still stands. An answer HAS to apply to every single scenario, so if you attack the scenario, then your answer cannot be the truth if theres a problem with it due to the scenario I posed.
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The question is not how people react to God when things go terribly wrong. It is why they react that way. The last statistics I saw for church goers is that about 4% are actually born again. Anyone can claim to be born again. The reality of that claim is very often proven by pressure (parable of the sower).

Lord Jesus is able to keep us from falling. I was not going to say this, but it may help. My marriage failed in 1995. My ex moved away and left me no forwarding address. She took my children with her. The only way that I knew they were alive is that the government deducted child support. It was only God and the support of my godly friends that got me through.

I had no way of knowing if I would see them again. I was devastated. I complained to God that I had lost my son. I worried for him because he was only six and a real softy. God spoke to me. "My Son died for you." That brought me back to reality.

It's OK to complain to God. It's not OK to complain about God. Complaining about God demonstrates that people do not know Him. And knowing God is the definition of having eternal life. (John 17:3)
 
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legion said:
No it doesn’t. That is a logicall fallacy.

I can jump out of an airplane, I can't jump into it. However being in his hand is in fact our choice as well.
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We are directed to call upon Him, denoting a sense that we are stuck fast and need rescued.
 
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