Nebuchadnezzar's image vs. the heads of the Beast. Can you match them up?

[TMS]

It can be simple or you can make it complicated.

Daniel 2 is the basic time line of prophecy and almost all other prophecies are connected to it in some way...

Babylon
Medio, Persian
Greece
Rome
Divided Rome or Papal Rome.

It fits perfectly and History fits too.

Daniel 7 and 8 both repeat and enlarge.
Revelation also repeats and enlarges.

So Daniel 2 is important to understand the other prophecies.

 

[Lovette]

The empire that took over Israel after Rome was Islam. That Empires advance was cut off in Spain. It has two main feet, Shia and Sunni. The Islamists hope to revive the Islamic Empire, unified under the coming Mahdi, who would lead the eighth, which is of the seventh. The Islamists have been terrible, and trampled many nations, but prone to in-fighting among themselves. And they prefer beheading as their form of capital punishment.

Isalm will rather be integrated into the global religion system, symbolized by the Great Harlot of Babylon.

 

[Wansvic]

@tablet123 . That is an excellent summary. I appreciate it.

If you have time, perhaps you can help me with the feet and toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image.

You will notice that the feet are a 'divided' kingdom:



However, the toes have the word 'broken' associated with it:



What do you make of that? Is the word 'broken' simply referring to a weakened or 'brittle' state, or could that kingdom have experienced some sort of major calamity?

If anyone else has an opinion on this, I would like to hear it.

Interesting comments regarding the toes on the statue depict the Holy Roman Empire - an alliance of church and state; politics and religion (One world religion).

800 AD Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne ruled approx 1000 years. Dual leadership consistent; political leader from Europe and the spiritual leader from Italy (pope of Roman CC)

Rev 17:12 - last ten king alliance. The 10 toes in Dan 2:44 are the exact same as the 10 horns (nation union) in Rev 17.

Toes on the statue: Iron (political) and clay (spiritual) partly strong partly broken. Mingle themselves but not cleave. Spiritual leaders mix with carnality of politics;
Satans method of ruling the world. Whereas, God method of ruling the world is the church. The one world religion goes against God.

Jesus will return during the kingdom of the Holy Roman Empire. His is the kingdom (the rock) that smashes the kingdom made up of iron and clay in the vision.

Rebirth of Holy Roman Empire has been going on for years. 1957 Treaty of Rome, by 1992 economic barriers were down. Moscate Treaty brought about economic to polical union. 2004 EU expanded. 2007 EU rose to 27 members. #1 economic power. EU - the rebirth of prophesied Holy Roman Empire out of which the Antichrist and False Prophet will emerge.

Confirmation? The EU printed their first $ in 1987 -The coin imprint is the image of Charlemagne; the first emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. They award a prize each year. The prize is named the Charlemagne prize. And the most influencial publication for kings and presidents is the Economist. They dedicate 1 page each week to European unification latest developments of the week. The page is titled; Charlemagne Page. Nations line up to become members. They must present their application at the Charlemagne building in Brussels, Belgium. Also, their flag has 12 stars. Why? Considering they have many more member states represented. The flag designer, Ersene Heintz, said he believed the Holy Roman Empire should have the holy element in it. He believed that the woman with the 12 stars depicted in Rev 12 is the virgin Mary and so put them on the flag. This is a sign for those who believe that Europe is under the flag of Mary, meaning the Roman Catholic Church is alive and well and part of the Holy Roman Empire. (Quote from Endtimes)

 

[PaulThomson]

Isalm will rather be integrated into the global religion system, symbolized by the Great Harlot of Babylon.

The harlot seems to me to be the syncretic kind of ethical and moral decadence that the UN promotes, and the beast could be Islamism which is presently kept on a leash by the UN. But at some point the Islamists could turn on the UN/harlot and go to war against her and cast off all her restraints.

 

[Lovette]

The harlot seems to me to be the syncretic kind of ethical and moral decadence that the UN promotes, and the beast could be Islamism which is presently kept on a leash by the UN. But at some point the Islamists could turn on the UN/harlot and go to war against her and cast off all her restraints.

No, the beast is a global government, operating through ten regional totalitarian regimes; the Harlot is a global religion, a hodgepodge of all false religions on earth.

 

[PaulThomson]

No, the beast is a global government, operating through ten regional totalitarian regimes; the Harlot is a global religion, a hodgepodge of all false religions on earth.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you are wrong. You seem to be a bit too dogmatic regarding your own opinion on this. How do you know that the beast is not empire operating through an Islamic hegemony of 10 leaders and wresting political control of the area around Israel?

 

[Lovette]

Maybe you are right. Maybe you are wrong. You seem to be a bit too dogmatic regarding your own opinion on this. How do you know that the beast is not empire operating through an Islamic hegemony of 10 leaders and wresting political control of the area around Israel?

Because the Beast must be a global system, not regional hegemony.

 

[cv5]

I have a bit of a Litmus Test that determines who best understands Nebuchadnezzar's image (in chapter two of the Book of Daniel) as well as the Beast of Revelation. The way it works is simple. If one can match Nebuchadnezzar's image to each head of the Beast, then their interpretations are worth the time to study and consider, i.e., they understand a major portion of Biblical prophecy. Those who are unable to match the image with the heads often have great difficulty explaining their position when the tough questions are asked.

That being said, I am going to offer my own take on how Nebuchadnezzar's image matches up with the seven (actually eight) heads of the Beast. I encourage folks to ask questions, discuss, debate, correct any errors I may have made, agree/disagree, contribute your theories, etc.

Nebuchadnezzar's Image vs. Heads of the Beast
Head of Gold: Babylon - Third Head of the Beast
Chest and Arms of Silver: Medo-Persia - Fourth Head of the Beast
Belly and Thighs of Brass: Greece - Fifth Head of the Beast
Legs of Iron - Rome: Sixth Head of the Beast
Feet of Iron and Clay: Times of the Gentiles - Seventh Head of the Beast
Toes of Iron and Clay: Mark of the Beast Instituted - Eighth Head of the Beast

Here are some graphics to help illustrate my matches:
View attachment 292651View attachment 292652

I have a bit of a Litmus Test that determines who best understands Nebuchadnezzar's image (in chapter two of the Book of Daniel) as well as the Beast of Revelation. The way it works is simple. If one can match Nebuchadnezzar's image to each head of the Beast, then their interpretations are worth the time to study and consider, i.e., they understand a major portion of Biblical prophecy. Those who are unable to match the image with the heads often have great difficulty explaining their position when the tough questions are asked.

That being said, I am going to offer my own take on how Nebuchadnezzar's image matches up with the seven (actually eight) heads of the Beast. I encourage folks to ask questions, discuss, debate, correct any errors I may have made, agree/disagree, contribute your theories, etc.

Nebuchadnezzar's Image vs. Heads of the Beast
Head of Gold: Babylon - Third Head of the Beast
Chest and Arms of Silver: Medo-Persia - Fourth Head of the Beast
Belly and Thighs of Brass: Greece - Fifth Head of the Beast
Legs of Iron - Rome: Sixth Head of the Beast
Feet of Iron and Clay: Times of the Gentiles - Seventh Head of the Beast
Toes of Iron and Clay: Mark of the Beast Instituted - Eighth Head of the Beast

Here are some graphics to help illustrate my matches:
View attachment 292651View attachment 292652

Ooppsies. You need to get the sequence and timing right. Think Church age then 70th week.

[Rev 12:3 KJV] 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[Rev 13:1 KJV] 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

[Rev 17:3 KJV] 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

You are exactly right to point to the shifting of the crowns (diadems) across these three verses. In Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s exegesis, the placement of the crowns is the crucial hermeneutical key to tracking the chronological progression of Gentile world dominion—specifically showing the prophetic gap of the Church Age and the shifting power structures within Daniel's 70th week (the Tribulation).
Fruchtenbaum teaches that as the crowns move, so does the seat of absolute authority. Here is how he exegetes the exact sequence you provided:
### 1. Revelation 12:3 — Crowns on the Seven Heads
> *"a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."*
>
* **The Timing:** Historical timeline up to the First Century (Pre-Church Age).
* **Fruchtenbaum’s Exegesis:** The dragon is Satan. The crowns are placed on the **seven heads**, which represent the consecutive Gentile world empires (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the future One-World system). The crowns on the heads indicate that, historically, Satan exercised his authority through these successive, singular empires one at a time.
* **The Gap:** After the sixth head (Rome), there is a prophetic pause. The Roman Empire falls, and the prophetic clock stops for the **Church Age**. The seventh head (the One-World Government) does not rise until the Church Age ends at the Rapture, paving the way for the 70th week.
### 2. Revelation 13:1 — Crowns Shift to the Ten Horns
> *"a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns..."*
>
* **The Timing:** The First Half of Daniel's 70th Week.
* **Fruchtenbaum’s Exegesis:** The crowns have now shifted from the heads to the **ten horns**. According to Fruchtenbaum's timeline, following the Rapture, a One-World Government (the 7th head) is established but quickly divides into ten regional kingdoms. The horns represent these ten kings who rule concurrently. The fact that the horns now wear the crowns shows that ruling authority has shifted from a single consecutive empire into a coalition of ten co-ruling kings. This marks the beginning stages of the Tribulation period.
### 3. Revelation 17:3 — No Crowns on Heads or Horns
> *"a scarlet coloured beast... having seven heads and ten horns."* (Notice: no crowns are mentioned).
>
* **The Timing:** The Middle of Daniel's 70th Week.
* **Fruchtenbaum’s Exegesis:** The crowns are now completely absent from both the heads and the horns. Why? Because a massive power shift has occurred. Fruchtenbaum parallels this with Daniel 7, teaching that the Antichrist (the "little horn") rises up among the ten kings. He assassinates three of them, and the remaining seven submit their authority entirely to him.
* Because the Antichrist assumes absolute, dictatorial, global control at the midpoint of the Tribulation, the ten kings lose their independent sovereign power. They are no longer crowned. The Antichrist himself—who *is* the Beast—has usurped the authority, becoming the "eighth king" mentioned later in Revelation 17:11.
### Summary of the Sequence
By paying attention to exactly where John places the crowns, Fruchtenbaum demonstrates a perfect chronological progression:
1. **Consecutive historical empires** (Crowns on heads -> followed by the Church Age).
2. **A ten-king confederacy at the start of the Tribulation** (Crowns on horns).
3. **Absolute dictatorship of the Antichrist at the midpoint of the Tribulation** (No crowns on heads or horns, because the Beast himsel
f holds all the power).

 

[Researcher]

I forgot I started a thread on this topic years ago. Here's a link to one of my posts from it you might find interesting.

https://christianchat.com/threads/hitler-the-seventh-head-of-the-beast.199966/post-4718199

Jackpot! I will take a look. Thanks!

 

[Researcher]

The "little horn" is also the eighth head of the beast. The lion with a mouth and eyes of a man.

Agreed.

 

[Lovette]

Agreed.

The eighth head is still the seventh. The text says it's also "the Beast itself", it's likely to be the wounded head, which is miraculously healed, so it appeared as a new one.

 

[Researcher]

According to Fruchtenbaum's timeline, following the Rapture, a One-World Government (the 7th head) is established but quickly divides into ten regional kingdoms. The horns represent these ten kings who rule concurrently.

I see. The seventh head has not arrived according to Fruchtenbaum's timeline.

Fruchtenbaum parallels this with Daniel 7, teaching that the Antichrist (the "little horn") rises up among the ten kings. He assassinates three of them, and the remaining seven submit their authority entirely to him.

Fruchtenbaum got the bolded wrong. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 does *not* assassinate three of the Ten Kings. This is a very common misconception and misinterpretation that can easily be debunked.

Let us first do a quick review of the relevant verses. The ten horns that are referenced in Daniel 7 are mentioned three times:

Daniel 7:7 - After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:20 - And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24 - And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

As we can see in Daniel 7:24, the ten horns are symbolic of ten kings. Moreover, both Daniel 7:20 and 7:24 state that 'another shall subdue three kings'. This other entity is referred to as a ‘Little Horn’ in Daniel 7:8:

Daniel 7:8 - I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The common assumption is that the Little Horn subdues three of the ten horns, i.e., three of the ten kings. However, when interpreting the Little Horn in this manner, a few contradictions occur.

Revelation 17 gives us the finer details:

Revelation 17:12-13 - And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Several Points:
1. None of the ten kings have fallen. All ten are present and accounted for.
2. All ten work in cooperation with the Little Horn.
3. The Little Horn and ten kings are not enemies.
4. The Little Horn does not attack any of the ten kings.
5. They all have power together for one hour.

Now a question arises. What if three of the ten kings fell after Revelation 17:12-13? This is not possible because all ten kings, plus the Little Horn, make war with the Lamb at the same time. Moreover, the Lamb overcomes *all* of them at the same time:

Revelation 17:14 - These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Therefore, it is the Lamb that causes not just three to fall, but all ten plus the Little Horn to fall all at once. Therefore, the ‘three that are subdued’ are not of the ten kings, but rather they are different kings altogether. How do we know?

One clue is given to us in Revelation:

Revelation 13:2 - And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The Beast, i.e., the Little Horn is made up of the three empires that fell in Daniel:

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Thus, the three are already fallen and have nothing to do with the Ten Kings. Another clue is found within the context of Daniel 7 itself. One must look carefully to see it:

Daniel 7:17 - These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel is going out of his way to instruct us on how to interpret the Ten Kings verses. We are to understand that there are *four kings* that need to be accounted for. In other words, we need to add them to the equation. Almost no one does that!

So, what happens to those four? Most scholars agree that three of the four fell. Once again, they are a match for Revelation

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Those are the three kings that were ‘subdued’ or humiliated and made low. Most scholars agree that Rome, i.e., the Fourth Beast, took over most of those territories. The Little Horn is now ruling over them. This is why the Beast in Revelation is made up of three of the original four Beasts or kings. It all goes back to when Rome conquered.

If we push the envelope on this thesis a little further, we could add the popular opinion that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is still future while the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is in the past. If we combine this opinion with the ‘deadly wound that is healed’:

Revelation 13:3 - And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

...we might conclude that the Little Horn of the past (Rome I) receives a deadly head wound that is healed and becomes the Little Horn of the future (Rome II). This is how the Little Horn can take over the territories of the past empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, yet also join with the future Ten Kings to make war with the Lamb.

No matter how one looks at it, there is simply no evidence that the Little Horn attacked three of the Ten Kings.

 

[Researcher]

It can be simple or you can make it complicated.

Daniel 2 is the basic time line of prophecy and almost all other prophecies are connected to it in some way...

Babylon
Medio, Persian
Greece
Rome
Divided Rome or Papal Rome.

Are you suggesting that Papal Rome is the seventh head?

 

[Researcher]

Rebirth of Holy Roman Empire has been going on for years.

Would that be the seventh head?

 

[cv5]

Maybe you are right. Maybe you are wrong. You seem to be a bit too dogmatic regarding your own opinion on this. How do you know that the beast is not empire operating through an Islamic hegemony of 10 leaders and wresting political control of the area around Israel?

Because IRON is iconically Roman.

 

[cv5]

I see. The seventh head has not arrived according to Fruchtenbaum's timeline.



Fruchtenbaum got the bolded wrong. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 does *not* assassinate three of the Ten Kings. This is a very common misconception and misinterpretation that can easily be debunked.

Let us first do a quick review of the relevant verses. The ten horns that are referenced in Daniel 7 are mentioned three times:







As we can see in Daniel 7:24, the ten horns are symbolic of ten kings. Moreover, both Daniel 7:20 and 7:24 state that 'another shall subdue three kings'. This other entity is referred to as a ‘Little Horn’ in Daniel 7:8:



The common assumption is that the Little Horn subdues three of the ten horns, i.e., three of the ten kings. However, when interpreting the Little Horn in this manner, a few contradictions occur.

Revelation 17 gives us the finer details:



Several Points:
1. None of the ten kings have fallen. All ten are present and accounted for.
2. All ten work in cooperation with the Little Horn.
3. The Little Horn and ten kings are not enemies.
4. The Little Horn does not attack any of the ten kings.
5. They all have power together for one hour.

Now a question arises. What if three of the ten kings fell after Revelation 17:12-13? This is not possible because all ten kings, plus the Little Horn, make war with the Lamb at the same time. Moreover, the Lamb overcomes *all* of them at the same time:



Therefore, it is the Lamb that causes not just three to fall, but all ten plus the Little Horn to fall all at once. Therefore, the ‘three that are subdued’ are not of the ten kings, but rather they are different kings altogether. How do we know?

One clue is given to us in Revelation:



The Beast, i.e., the Little Horn is made up of the three empires that fell in Daniel:

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Thus, the three are already fallen and have nothing to do with the Ten Kings. Another clue is found within the context of Daniel 7 itself. One must look carefully to see it:



Daniel is going out of his way to instruct us on how to interpret the Ten Kings verses. We are to understand that there are *four kings* that need to be accounted for. In other words, we need to add them to the equation. Almost no one does that!

So, what happens to those four? Most scholars agree that three of the four fell. Once again, they are a match for Revelation

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Those are the three kings that were ‘subdued’ or humiliated and made low. Most scholars agree that Rome, i.e., the Fourth Beast, took over most of those territories. The Little Horn is now ruling over them. This is why the Beast in Revelation is made up of three of the original four Beasts or kings. It all goes back to when Rome conquered.

If we push the envelope on this thesis a little further, we could add the popular opinion that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is still future while the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is in the past. If we combine this opinion with the ‘deadly wound that is healed’:



...we might conclude that the Little Horn of the past (Rome I) receives a deadly head wound that is healed and becomes the Little Horn of the future (Rome II). This is how the Little Horn can take over the territories of the past empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, yet also join with the future Ten Kings to make war with the Lamb.

No matter how one looks at it, there is simply no evidence that the Little Horn attacked three of the Ten Kings.

Yes, within this dispensational framework (such as that outlined by Arnold Fruchtenbaum in *The Footsteps of the Messiah* and shared by many conservative prophecy scholars), there is a sequential progression that resolves this apparent contradiction:

* **Phase 1: The Ten-Nation Confederation & The Little Horn's Rise:** A revived geopolitical sphere (the old Roman domain) reorganizes into a ten-nation confederacy ruled by ten kings. Out of this mix, the Antichrist (the "little horn") rises to power behind the scenes or as an initially unpretentious eleventh leader.

* **Phase 2: The Subjugation of the Three:** Because the Antichrist intends to seize absolute, centralized dictatorship rather than just sharing power equally in a committee of ten, he forcefully deposes, subdues, or eliminates **three** of the original ten kings who resist his supreme authority (Daniel 7:24).

* **Phase 3: Voluntary Surrender of the Rest:** With the internal resistance crushed and an example made of the three dissenters, the remaining kings (the survivors plus any replacements, totaling ten functioning centers of power or a restructured bloc) capitulate. They realize resistance is futile and willingly hand over their sovereign authority, military might, and political power to the Beast (Revelation 17:13).
Thus, the elimination of the three kings happens *during* the consolidation of power, clearing the way for the total, unified totalitarian surrender described in Revelat
ion.

 

[cv5]

I see. The seventh head has not arrived according to Fruchtenbaum's timeline.



Fruchtenbaum got the bolded wrong. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 does *not* assassinate three of the Ten Kings. This is a very common misconception and misinterpretation that can easily be debunked.

Let us first do a quick review of the relevant verses. The ten horns that are referenced in Daniel 7 are mentioned three times:







As we can see in Daniel 7:24, the ten horns are symbolic of ten kings. Moreover, both Daniel 7:20 and 7:24 state that 'another shall subdue three kings'. This other entity is referred to as a ‘Little Horn’ in Daniel 7:8:



The common assumption is that the Little Horn subdues three of the ten horns, i.e., three of the ten kings. However, when interpreting the Little Horn in this manner, a few contradictions occur.

Revelation 17 gives us the finer details:



Several Points:
1. None of the ten kings have fallen. All ten are present and accounted for.
2. All ten work in cooperation with the Little Horn.
3. The Little Horn and ten kings are not enemies.
4. The Little Horn does not attack any of the ten kings.
5. They all have power together for one hour.

Now a question arises. What if three of the ten kings fell after Revelation 17:12-13? This is not possible because all ten kings, plus the Little Horn, make war with the Lamb at the same time. Moreover, the Lamb overcomes *all* of them at the same time:



Therefore, it is the Lamb that causes not just three to fall, but all ten plus the Little Horn to fall all at once. Therefore, the ‘three that are subdued’ are not of the ten kings, but rather they are different kings altogether. How do we know?

One clue is given to us in Revelation:



The Beast, i.e., the Little Horn is made up of the three empires that fell in Daniel:

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Thus, the three are already fallen and have nothing to do with the Ten Kings. Another clue is found within the context of Daniel 7 itself. One must look carefully to see it:



Daniel is going out of his way to instruct us on how to interpret the Ten Kings verses. We are to understand that there are *four kings* that need to be accounted for. In other words, we need to add them to the equation. Almost no one does that!

So, what happens to those four? Most scholars agree that three of the four fell. Once again, they are a match for Revelation

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Those are the three kings that were ‘subdued’ or humiliated and made low. Most scholars agree that Rome, i.e., the Fourth Beast, took over most of those territories. The Little Horn is now ruling over them. This is why the Beast in Revelation is made up of three of the original four Beasts or kings. It all goes back to when Rome conquered.

If we push the envelope on this thesis a little further, we could add the popular opinion that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is still future while the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is in the past. If we combine this opinion with the ‘deadly wound that is healed’:



...we might conclude that the Little Horn of the past (Rome I) receives a deadly head wound that is healed and becomes the Little Horn of the future (Rome II). This is how the Little Horn can take over the territories of the past empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, yet also join with the future Ten Kings to make war with the Lamb.

No matter how one looks at it, there is simply no evidence that the Little Horn attacked three of the Ten Kings.

You are not getting the big picture nor Gabriel's full explanation.

The perceived "out-of-sequence" flow in Daniel 7 stems from a shift in **literary genre and perspective**, moving from a chronological narrative of historical empires to a thematic courtroom drama centered on the end times.

The chapter is structured in a way that creates this zooming effect:
* **The Vision Stream (Verses 1–14):** This is the raw visionary experience as it flashed before Daniel's eyes. It begins historically (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) but rapidly cuts straight to the climax—the courtroom of the Ancient of Days, the destruction of the final beast, and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom. In prophetic literature, visions often telescope history, moving swiftly from past/current empires to the ultimate end-time crisis without pausing to explain every historical gap.

* **The Explanatory Stream (Verses 15–28):** Disturbed by what he saw, Daniel asks an angel for the meaning. The angel’s interpretation (starting at verse 17) does not repeat the dream chronologically; instead, it provides a **topical recap and breakdown**. Verse 17 acts as a broad structural anchor ("these four beasts are four kings"), after which the angel immediately loops back to zoom in on the specific detail that troubled Daniel the most: the terrifying fourth beast and its little horn.

### The Blueprint of the Chapter
1. **The Grand Overview (The Scope of History):** Babylon \rightarrow Medo-Persia \rightarrow Greece \rightarrow Rome (Verses 3–7).
2. **The Climax (The End of History):** The Antichrist's reign, the intervention of God, and the final judgment (Verses 8–14).
3. **The Rewind and Zoom (The Angelic Breakdown):** The angel goes back to explain *who* those entities are, explicitly separating the macro-empires (v. 17) from the micro-political maneuvering of the end-time little horn (v. 24).

Rather than a chronological timeline written like a modern history textbook, Daniel 7 uses a **macro-to-micro structure**: it lays out the broad sequence of world powers, jumps straight to the end of the world to show how it all resolves, and then uses the angelic interpretation to unpack the specific endgame me
chanics.

 

[cv5]

I see. The seventh head has not arrived according to Fruchtenbaum's timeline.



Fruchtenbaum got the bolded wrong. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 does *not* assassinate three of the Ten Kings. This is a very common misconception and misinterpretation that can easily be debunked.

Let us first do a quick review of the relevant verses. The ten horns that are referenced in Daniel 7 are mentioned three times:







As we can see in Daniel 7:24, the ten horns are symbolic of ten kings. Moreover, both Daniel 7:20 and 7:24 state that 'another shall subdue three kings'. This other entity is referred to as a ‘Little Horn’ in Daniel 7:8:



The common assumption is that the Little Horn subdues three of the ten horns, i.e., three of the ten kings. However, when interpreting the Little Horn in this manner, a few contradictions occur.

Revelation 17 gives us the finer details:



Several Points:
1. None of the ten kings have fallen. All ten are present and accounted for.
2. All ten work in cooperation with the Little Horn.
3. The Little Horn and ten kings are not enemies.
4. The Little Horn does not attack any of the ten kings.
5. They all have power together for one hour.

Now a question arises. What if three of the ten kings fell after Revelation 17:12-13? This is not possible because all ten kings, plus the Little Horn, make war with the Lamb at the same time. Moreover, the Lamb overcomes *all* of them at the same time:



Therefore, it is the Lamb that causes not just three to fall, but all ten plus the Little Horn to fall all at once. Therefore, the ‘three that are subdued’ are not of the ten kings, but rather they are different kings altogether. How do we know?

One clue is given to us in Revelation:



The Beast, i.e., the Little Horn is made up of the three empires that fell in Daniel:

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Thus, the three are already fallen and have nothing to do with the Ten Kings. Another clue is found within the context of Daniel 7 itself. One must look carefully to see it:



Daniel is going out of his way to instruct us on how to interpret the Ten Kings verses. We are to understand that there are *four kings* that need to be accounted for. In other words, we need to add them to the equation. Almost no one does that!

So, what happens to those four? Most scholars agree that three of the four fell. Once again, they are a match for Revelation

• Babylon: – Mouth of a Lion
• Medo-Persia: Feet of a Bear
• Greece: Like unto a Leopard

Those are the three kings that were ‘subdued’ or humiliated and made low. Most scholars agree that Rome, i.e., the Fourth Beast, took over most of those territories. The Little Horn is now ruling over them. This is why the Beast in Revelation is made up of three of the original four Beasts or kings. It all goes back to when Rome conquered.

If we push the envelope on this thesis a little further, we could add the popular opinion that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is still future while the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is in the past. If we combine this opinion with the ‘deadly wound that is healed’:



...we might conclude that the Little Horn of the past (Rome I) receives a deadly head wound that is healed and becomes the Little Horn of the future (Rome II). This is how the Little Horn can take over the territories of the past empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, yet also join with the future Ten Kings to make war with the Lamb.

No matter how one looks at it, there is simply no evidence that the Little Horn attacked three of the Ten Kings.

The three kings are "subdued". This could mean defeated in battle (my pick), assassinated, politically deposed or otherwise disposed of.

Stalin disposed of his adversaries in many ways and means.

If you didn't notice: WAR
And yes 42 months is.....1260 days
This ridiculous historicist rubbish is Biblically illiterate falderal.

Rev 13:4 - And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 13:6 - And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[PaulThomson]

Because IRON is iconically Roman.

Why do you believe that "IRON is iconically Roman"?

 

[cv5]

Why do you believe that "IRON is iconically Roman"?

Why is iron iconically Roman in Scripture? Because Daniel’s successive-empire prophecy identifies the fourth kingdom by the very qualities that most distinctively characterized Rome: ironlike strength, crushing military power, and the ability to break other nations into pieces.

Daniel 2 presents four successive Gentile kingdoms:

1. Babylon — the head of gold
2. Medo-Persia — the breast and arms of silver
3. Greece — the belly and thighs of bronze
4. The fourth kingdom — the legs of iron

Daniel then explains:

“And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.”
— Daniel 2:40

The fourth kingdom follows Greece historically. The empire that conquered the Greek world and dominated the Mediterranean was Rome. Therefore, although Daniel 2 does not write the word “Rome” beside the iron legs, the historical and prophetic sequence identifies the iron kingdom as Rome.

This is confirmed in Daniel 7. The fourth kingdom appears as a terrifying beast:

“Dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it.”
— Daniel 7:7

Notice the repeated imagery: iron, crushing, breaking, devouring, and trampling. Daniel 7:23 interprets the beast:

“The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth … and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.”

That description fits Rome’s method of imperial conquest with remarkable precision. Rome did not merely defeat rival kingdoms; it absorbed them, dismantled their political independence, imposed Roman administration, stationed legions throughout their territories, and crushed rebellion with overwhelming force.

The New Testament historical setting further confirms that Rome was the dominant fourth empire during the coming of Christ. Jesus was born under Caesar Augustus, governed locally under Roman authority, and crucified by order of Pontius Pilate using the Roman method of execution. The empire ruling the biblical world after Greece was unmistakably Rome.

Even the imagery of the legs is appropriate. The Roman Empire eventually developed an eastern and western division, while the feet and ten toes anticipate the final divided form of that same fourth-kingdom system. The iron continues from the legs into the feet, though mixed with clay:

“And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided.”
— Daniel 2:41

Thus, iron is “iconically Roman” not because Scripture casually associates Romans with metalworking, but because God deliberately uses iron as the prophetic symbol of the fourth Gentile empire—the kingdom succeeding Greece, possessing extraordinary crushing power, and continuing in divided form until the establishment of Messiah’s kingdom.

So the argument is straightforward:

Babylon is named as the first kingdom.
Medo-Persia and Greece are expressly identified later in Daniel.
The fourth kingdom succeeds Greece.
Rome historically succeeded and conquered the Greek imperial world.
The fourth kingdom is repeatedly characterized by iron and crushing power.

Therefore, the iron kingdom is Rome. To deny the Roman identification is not enlightenment; it is to sever Daniel’s prophecy from both its inspired sequence and its obvious historical fulfilment