More about Israel.

[TabinRivCA]

Christ the Anointed One, seek the Kingdom of Heaven and all things will be added unto you.
The name "Christ" literally means "the Anointed One" from the Greek word Christos, which translates the Hebrew word Messiah. Scripture explicitly links Jesus to this identity in Luke 4:18 and Daniel 9:25–26.

 

[God-fearing]

"Christ" is a translation of "Messiah", so I would say that they do have one.
God intentionally gave us the NT in Greek, and though we pronounce "Jesus" and "Christ" slightly differently, I do not consider us to be mistaken in using those names.

The name "Christian" was first given at Antioch (Acts 2:26) to the disciples of Christ, and it seems that these Christians were also Jewish, so I would say "Christian" is just a translation too.

Gotcha

 

[God-fearing]

"Christ" is a translation of "Messiah", so I would say that they do have one.
God intentionally gave us the NT in Greek, and though we pronounce "Jesus" and "Christ" slightly differently, I do not consider us to be mistaken in using those names.

The name "Christian" was first given at Antioch (Acts 2:26) to the disciples of Christ, and it seems that these Christians were also Jewish, so I would say "Christian" is just a translation too.

What does it mean that neither Greek or jew are found in Christ? in your own words.

 

[Beekeeper]

What does it mean that neither Greek or jew are found in Christ? in your own words.

The earthly kingdom of Israel has changed it's form to a heavenly Israel of God.
As it is no longer an earthly kingdom, ethnicity is no longer relevant.

 

[Beekeeper]

Christ the Anointed One, seek the Kingdom of Heaven and all things will be added unto you.
The name "Christ" literally means "the Anointed One" from the Greek word Christos, which translates the Hebrew word Messiah. Scripture explicitly links Jesus to this identity in Luke 4:18 and Daniel 9:25–26.

Agree, but I would also include Daniel 9:27 in that too.
"He" in that verse is a reference to the Messiah, not the antichrist.

 

[God-fearing]

The earthly kingdom of Israel has changed it's form to a heavenly Israel of God.
As it is no longer an earthly kingdom, ethnicity is no longer relevant.

That's true in part but what of Christianity?

 

[Beekeeper]

That's true in part but what of Christianity?

The Ecclesia is older than old covenant Israel, so whether it is Abraham, King David, Peter or Cornelius, in Christ they are grafted into the heavenly Israel of God.
None of them got to start a new "church".
If there are still parts of "Christianity" that are not joint heirs to the promises of Abraham and the heavenly Israel of God, they are not yet in the body of Christ.

 

[God-fearing]

The Ecclesia is older than old covenant Israel, so whether it is Abraham, King David, Peter or Cornelius, in Christ they are grafted into the heavenly Israel of God.
None of them got to start a new "church".
If there are still parts of "Christianity" that are not joint heirs to the promises of Abraham and the heavenly Israel of God, they are not yet in the body of Christ.

Interesting.
To my understanding of scripture judisim and Christianity is not needed in the new kingdom. Some express here as well as elsewhere that Christianity prevails over all but I dont see it that way. If former things pass away and remembrance is removed and as Jesus says he makes all things new to my understanding that means judisim and Christianity has also ended.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This verse in john has me meditating for quite some time now.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Churchgoer]

Jesus is YHVH, from beginning to end, always about Jesus.
Both OT and NT is about Jesus.
Whoever rejects Jesus is not in heaven, same for OT and NT.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

No they don't per Romans 11

I'm confused.You do believe that the church is the fulfilment of God's plan,right?If you do then, why do you say that the church doesn't replace Israel when we know that it doesn't?.

Our blood is water and blood.The life is in the blood.

The same goes for man(water) and woman(blood.)When a man and a woman come together and conceive,they literally become one.
Half dna from the father, and half from the mother.
The life is in the blood.The woman(blood)is the child bearer.In her is life.
But without water,and blood becoming as one there is no life.

When you're trying to separate Israel of old,the descendants by blood,from the church,by saying it's replacement theology,then you are placing a partition between the water and the blood.By doing so there would be no life.
Which spiritually speaking makes no sense at all unless you cross over to those who oppose your theology.

Here's another one.Jesus died for the earth.The earth is of land and water.
The water is symbolic of water, and the earth is in the image of blood because Jesus shed his blood on earth/land.
God made a promise to Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the sand along the seashore.
Those are the ones born of Spirit.sand=spirit,sea=water,land=blood.
The sand along the seashore is a divider between the land and the sea.
The Holy Spirit is also a divider,dividing us from those in the world.The Holy Spirit is a firmament,which is called heaven in the book of Genesis.
The Holy Spirit is New Jerusalem,the Holy City,the Holy land.
It is the fulfilment of the promise given by God to his "faithful" Israel,His Holy remnant.
The reason why I mentioned the signs in God's creations is because everything points to Jesus.He came by water and blood.It is the spirit that testifies and they're as one.
What makes OT Israel divided from the church if they're not the same?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'm confused.You do believe that the church is the fulfilment of God's plan,right?If you do then, why do you say that the church doesn't replace Israel when we know that it doesn't?.

Because "we" apparently all don't know that and some here push Replacement Theology.

When you're trying to separate Israel of old,the descendants by blood,from the church,by saying it's replacement theology,then you are placing a partition between the water and the blood.By doing so there would be no life.
Which spiritually speaking makes no sense at all unless you cross over to those who oppose your theology.

No, Replacement theology is saying God is done with Israel and now the church are the chosen ones.

 

[Roger316]

Interesting.
To my understanding of scripture judisim and Christianity is not needed in the new kingdom. Some express here as well as elsewhere that Christianity prevails over all but I dont see it that way. If former things pass away and remembrance is removed and as Jesus says he makes all things new to my understanding that means judisim and Christianity has also ended.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This verse in john has me meditating for quite some time now.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I agree with you. All things will become new. The version of Christianity that is a man-made religion will die. But faith and trust in Jesus Christ will live forever.

 

[Roger316]

The earthly kingdom of Israel has changed it's form to a heavenly Israel of God.
As it is no longer an earthly kingdom, ethnicity is no longer relevant.

This would be a longer conversation, but I think you should reconsider. If I understand the prophets, Jesus will return to rule over an ethnic Israel. And the reason lies in God's wish to vindicate himself before the nations. You are right about one thing: during that time, and even shortly before Jesus returns, the ethnic Israel will be 100% spiritual and children of God. There is still only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ.

I discovered this to be true when I studied the Epistle of Romans. In chapter 2, Paul mentions that the Jews blasphemed the name of God when they lived among the nations. We can find mention of this in the OT. Not only that, we can read about how God will restore his name among the people.

That event is the basis of the Lord's prayer, "Father, make your name holy: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Where does it say that God intends to make his name holy again? Ezekiel 36:23

This is the strongest and most programmatic statement.God says:

• Israel has profaned His name
• The nations have drawn false conclusions about Him
• God Himself will act to restore the holiness of His name
• He will do this publicly, in a way the nations can see
• His restoration of Israel is for the sake of His name

This is the theological backbone of the entire “new heart / new spirit” section in Ezekiel 36.

Isaiah 52:5
Isaiah describes Israel’s suffering in exile and the nations’ mocking response. Because Israel is oppressed, the nations conclude that Israel’s God is weak or defeated. This leads to the profanation of God’s name:

• Israel was taken away “for nothing” (ḥinnām)
• The nations see Israel’s humiliation
• They draw false conclusions about Israel’s God
• As a result, God’s name is profaned “all day long”

This is the passage where God says His name is being dishonored without cause—meaning Israel’s suffering is not due to God’s weakness, but due to the nations’ misunderstanding.

The return of Israel to rule over a nation filled with ethnic Israel, who are spirit-filled believers and obedient people, is how God answers the nations that indeed his name is holy.

 

[PotofSoup]

I am glad you asked me that, because some people think that when I say "old covenant" I refer to the promises that God made to "Abraham and his seed", as these are promises that still continue in the new covenant through "his seed" which is Christ (Galatians 3:16) in whom all the families of the earth are blessed.

The old covenant that the children of Israel were under is the one made at Mt. Sinai.
This is the covenant where the law of Moses was given, and was broken by the children of Israel.
This is also the covenant that bound the children of Israel to the holy land.
When God describes the blessings for obedience and the curses for disobedience to Israel, one of the cursed includes
Deuteronomy 28:21 "The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it"

A good illustration of the old and new covenants:

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that despite having broken the old covenant, the children of Israel have a far superior hope in the new covenant.
It is an eternal spiritual hope shared by all in Christ, but it is not found in the earthly kingdom.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

It is well understood that God brought the children of Israel back to the promised land after this prophesy, yet how do we reconcile the eternal nature of God's intentions with the fact that God also made an eternal new covenant through Jesus, and that He not only used the Romans to destroy old covenant Israel, but intends to destroy the whole earth?
Some say that old covenant Israel will simply be reinstated.
Yet Israel has already existed in many other forms and this would clash with Revelations 18:21
"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."
Which indicates that old covenant Israel is finished forever.
I would suggest that Jacob and the fathers also dwell in heavenly Jerusalem, and "David" is also the house of David, so the prince is Jesus.

Interesting, it sounds like your position is that Jews are bound only to the Sinai covenant and not the Abrahamic covenant. And because Israel broke the Sinai covenant, you conclude they are no longer God’s covenant people. Under that framework, “Jews” today would exist in various disconnected forms—some even from being the new Babylon.

If that is indeed your view, I have to point out that it doesn’t align with the Jewish literature (Bible) or with mainstream scholarship. This is why passages like Ezekiel 37:25 become difficult to reconcile within your system. Texts like this—and many others—do not fit the narrative you’re proposing. Ezekiel 37:25 is clearly an eschatological prophecy, not a reference to the return from the Babylonian exile, if that is what you are assuming.

Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding your position. But if I’m understanding you correctly, then your entire theological framework regarding the Jewish people rests on the premise that Jews are not under the Abrahamic covenant. Everything else you argue seems to flow from that foundational assumption. Correct?

Thanks for your response.

 

[Churchgoer]

The Ecclesia is older than old covenant Israel, so whether it is Abraham, King David, Peter or Cornelius, in Christ they are grafted into the heavenly Israel of God.
None of them got to start a new "church".
If there are still parts of "Christianity" that are not joint heirs to the promises of Abraham and the heavenly Israel of God, they are not yet in the body of Christ.

It is always about Jesus. Even Abraham time, all look upon the bronze pole where snake hung up there, they got healed.

No need to twist and turn. Such an easy truth, Jesus the way .

Other way leads to destruction. That's it.

 

[Beekeeper]

This would be a longer conversation, but I think you should reconsider. If I understand the prophets, Jesus will return to rule over an ethnic Israel. And the reason lies in God's wish to vindicate himself before the nations. You are right about one thing: during that time, and even shortly before Jesus returns, the ethnic Israel will be 100% spiritual and children of God. There is still only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ.

I discovered this to be true when I studied the Epistle of Romans. In chapter 2, Paul mentions that the Jews blasphemed the name of God when they lived among the nations. We can find mention of this in the OT. Not only that, we can read about how God will restore his name among the people.

That event is the basis of the Lord's prayer, "Father, make your name holy: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Where does it say that God intends to make his name holy again? Ezekiel 36:23

This is the strongest and most programmatic statement.God says:

• Israel has profaned His name
• The nations have drawn false conclusions about Him
• God Himself will act to restore the holiness of His name
• He will do this publicly, in a way the nations can see
• His restoration of Israel is for the sake of His name

This is the theological backbone of the entire “new heart / new spirit” section in Ezekiel 36.

Isaiah 52:5
Isaiah describes Israel’s suffering in exile and the nations’ mocking response. Because Israel is oppressed, the nations conclude that Israel’s God is weak or defeated. This leads to the profanation of God’s name:

• Israel was taken away “for nothing” (ḥinnām)
• The nations see Israel’s humiliation
• They draw false conclusions about Israel’s God
• As a result, God’s name is profaned “all day long”

This is the passage where God says His name is being dishonored without cause—meaning Israel’s suffering is not due to God’s weakness, but due to the nations’ misunderstanding.

The return of Israel to rule over a nation filled with ethnic Israel, who are spirit-filled believers and obedient people, is how God answers the nations that indeed his name is holy.

When we discuss the kingdom of Christ in the future we must be careful not to forget the things that Jesus has already told us about the nature of His kingdom.
I could write an essay about it, but to be brief I will give 2 quotes:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence

With this in mind I am understanding Christ's "thousand year" reign as a present reality.
In reference to Revelations 21 I would understand that Satan was reigning supreme in the earth at the time of Ezekiel and into the Babylonian captivity.
Those "great" kingdoms were as evil as evil gets, but God had a little light of resistance in Israel, and although Israel profaned it, God was determined to maintain it for the sake of His holy name.
At that time God did so first by sending Israel into captivity, thereby separating Himself from their sin, and then by miraculously restoring the Israel nation again.
That is by no means the only thing that God can do to restore His holy name, but it is what He did then at that time.

The time we live in now is not the same regarding man's relationship with God because Satan has been sufficiently bound to allow the gospel to go out among the nations, making all the lands of the earth much like the promised land once was.
We are told that Satan is to be loosed out of his prison once again for a little season.
We could expect that the holy name of God will once again come under severe attack in the world for that short time.
In this changed circumstance how would restoring an earthly Jerusalem restore the integrity of God's name?
We are told that all that fire from God will devour the servants of Satan, and he will be destroyed forever.
We are also told that God will reveal the new Jerusalem, which is also the eternal kingdom of heaven under Jesus.

 

[Churchgoer]

John 4:21
John 4 chapter

 

[Beekeeper]

Interesting, it sounds like your position is that Jews are bound only to the Sinai covenant and not the Abrahamic covenant. And because Israel broke the Sinai covenant, you conclude they are no longer God’s covenant people. Under that framework, “Jews” today would exist in various disconnected forms—some even from being the new Babylon.

If that is indeed your view, I have to point out that it doesn’t align with the Jewish literature (Bible) or with mainstream scholarship. This is why passages like Ezekiel 37:25 become difficult to reconcile within your system. Texts like this—and many others—do not fit the narrative you’re proposing. Ezekiel 37:25 is clearly an eschatological prophecy, not a reference to the return from the Babylonian exile, if that is what you are assuming.

Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding your position. But if I’m understanding you correctly, then your entire theological framework regarding the Jewish people rests on the premise that Jews are not under the Abrahamic covenant. Everything else you argue seems to flow from that foundational assumption. Correct?

Thanks for your response.

So if there is an opposing view to my one about the Abrahamic covenant what would that be?
Are the promises of Abraham guaranteed to all who are born into his physical family?

That would not be a position that can be defended from the Bible.
Ishmael did not inherit them, neither did Esau.
Many of the children of Jacob also forsook God and also lost their inheritance.
Jesus told some Pharisees "Ye are of your father the devil", meaning that they were not children of God, despite being Jews.
God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, so if their father is the devil they do not inherit the promises of Abraham.
Jesus also said "I can raise up children of Abraham from these stones", meaning that the promises of Abraham are inherited by a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one.

So yes, all the promises of Abraham were to Jesus who is his seed, and it is in Jesus that all the families of the earth are blessed.
Jewish people are under the Abrahamic covenant only if their Father is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and that of course means that they believe in Jesus.

 

[Roger316]

When we discuss the kingdom of Christ in the future we must be careful not to forget the things that Jesus has already told us about the nature of His kingdom.
I could write an essay about it, but to be brief I will give 2 quotes:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence

With this in mind I am understanding Christ's "thousand year" reign as a present reality.
In reference to Revelations 21 I would understand that Satan was reigning supreme in the earth at the time of Ezekiel and into the Babylonian captivity.
Those "great" kingdoms were as evil as evil gets, but God had a little light of resistance in Israel, and although Israel profaned it, God was determined to maintain it for the sake of His holy name.
At that time God did so first by sending Israel into captivity, thereby separating Himself from their sin, and then by miraculously restoring the Israel nation again.
That is by no means the only thing that God can do to restore His holy name, but it is what He did then at that time.

The time we live in now is not the same regarding man's relationship with God because Satan has been sufficiently bound to allow the gospel to go out among the nations, making all the lands of the earth much like the promised land once was.
We are told that Satan is to be loosed out of his prison once again for a little season.
We could expect that the holy name of God will once again come under severe attack in the world for that short time.
In this changed circumstance how would restoring an earthly Jerusalem restore the integrity of God's name?
We are told that all that fire from God will devour the servants of Satan, and he will be destroyed forever.
We are also told that God will reveal the new Jerusalem, which is also the eternal kingdom of heaven under Jesus.

I have a friend who believes in Amillennialism. We talk about it, but I am not convinced that Satan has been bound.

 

[BetterCallPsalms]

Zionist Sabbath worshippers are always stirring up strife on here and always bring up the holocaust.