The Parable of the Ten Virgins does not refer to the church

[cv5]

Well, there goes the non-judgement paralambanō theory of Matt 24:
Strong's Number G3880 matches the Greek παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō).

Mat 4:5
Then the devil taketh G3880 him up G3880 into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Tools

Mat 4:8
Again, the devil taketh G3880 him up G3880 into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh G3880 with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, G3880 and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, G3880 and the other left.

Post in thread 'The Parable of the Ten Virgins does not refer to the church'

Jul 29, 2026

Here are five notable pastors, theologians, and Bible teachers who firmly plant themselves in each camp of this specific exegetical debate.
Both sides hold to a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, but they sharply divide on whether that event can actually be found in Matthew 24.
### Camp 1: The Traditional View
**The Stance:** The entire Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24–25) is exclusively about Israel, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming. The Rapture is completely absent from the text.
**1. John F. Walvoord**
The former president of Dallas Theological Seminary and author of *The Rapture...

• cv5

 

[cv5]

Well, there goes the non-judgement paralambanō theory of Matt 24:
Strong's Number G3880 matches the Greek παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō).

Mat 4:5
Then the devil taketh G3880 him up G3880 into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Tools

Mat 4:8
Again, the devil taketh G3880 him up G3880 into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh G3880 with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, G3880 and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, G3880 and the other left.

Post in thread 'The Parable of the Ten Virgins does not refer to the church'

Jul 29, 2026

Here are five notable pastors, theologians, and Bible teachers who firmly plant themselves in each camp of this specific exegetical debate.
Both sides hold to a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, but they sharply divide on whether that event can actually be found in Matthew 24.
### Camp 1: The Traditional View
**The Stance:** The entire Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24–25) is exclusively about Israel, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming. The Rapture is completely absent from the text.
**1. John F. Walvoord**
The former president of Dallas Theological Seminary and author of *The Rapture...

• cv5

Yes—the claim that paralambanō is intrinsically nonjudicial has collapsed. Your concordance check exposes the lexical overreach.


The verb παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō) basically means “take along,” “take with oneself,” “receive,” or “take into one’s company.” It describes the act of taking someone; it does not, by itself, tell us whether the destination or purpose is salvation, fellowship, temptation, danger, or judgment.

Your examples are decisive against the absolute claim​

In Matthew 4:5 and 4:8, the devil paralambanei Jesus to the temple pinnacle and the high mountain. Plainly, the verb does not require affectionate fellowship, bridal reception, or salvation.


In Matthew 12:45, an unclean spirit “takes with himself” seven more wicked spirits. This is intimate association in a grammatical sense, but obviously not beneficial association.


Consequently, this argument is invalid:

Paralambanō means taking someone to oneself in close fellowship; therefore Matthew 24:40 must describe Christ receiving believers in the Rapture.

That commits the illegitimate totality transfer fallacy: importing every favourable nuance found in some occurrences into one disputed occurrence.

What the airō/paralambanō distinction actually establishes​

Matthew deliberately uses different verbs:

• Matthew 24:39: the flood ἦρεν (ēren, from airō) them all away.
• Matthew 24:40: one is παραλαμβάνεται (paralambanetai), taken along.
• The other is ἀφίεται (aphietai), left or permitted to remain.

The change is worth noticing, but it does not automatically reverse the identity of the people removed. It may simply distinguish:

1. the impersonal flood sweeping away the population, from
2. the personal separation and removal of particular individuals when the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 24:40 does indeed contain paralambanetai.


Thus:

Different verbs do not necessarily mean opposite destinies.

The flood can “sweep away” collectively, while agents of judgment “take away” individuals. The second verb describes a more personal action, but the context must identify whether that action is favourable or adverse.

The Luke 17 parallel is even more damaging​

Luke records virtually the same saying:

One will be taken and the other left.

The disciples immediately ask:

“Where, Lord?”

Jesus answers with the image of the body or corpse and the gathering vultures/eagles. The NET textual note observes that the context calls for scavenging birds consuming dead bodies.


That strongly suggests the disciples understood the question as:

“Where are the ones taken?”

And Jesus’ answer points toward death and judgment, not transportation to the bridal chamber.


There is some interpretive debate over precisely what “Where, Lord?” refers to, but Luke 17:37 makes it impossible to claim that paralambanō is lexically incapable of describing an adverse removal.

Noah’s analogy still favours judgment​

The immediate sequence in Matthew is:

1. People live normally and remain oblivious.
2. The Flood arrives.
3. The oblivious people are removed in judgment.
4. “Then” two are together; one is taken and one remains.
5. Therefore, remain watchful.

The closest stated antecedent for the person “taken” is therefore the unbeliever overtaken by judgment. The lexical switch does not erase the narrative analogy.


That is why numerous interpreters conclude that the one taken is removed in judgment while the one left survives to enter the kingdom.

Final verdict​

The fair conclusion is:

Paralambanō neither proves the Rapture nor proves judgment. It is semantically neutral concerning the person’s ultimate destiny.

But once the lexical argument is removed, the Noah context and the Luke 17 parallel lean heavily toward the person taken being taken in judgment.


So, yes:

There goes the “paralambanō cannot denote adverse or judicial removal” theory.

That does not by itself disprove every possible transition at Matthew 24:36. Someone could still argue for a transition using peri de, imminency, or broader eschatological considerations. But Hart’s supposed lexical trump card—airō bad, paralambanō good—is nowhere close to decisive and is arguably quite misleading.

 

[cv5]

The phrase “day and hour” in Matthew 24:36 and the repeated emphasis on the unknown “hour” in verses 42 and 44 need not mean that the entire general period is unknowable. It can mean that the people living through the seventieth week will recognize the prophetic season—and even know that the end is approaching—without knowing the exact moment of Christ’s arrival.


That fits the preceding discourse:

• The abomination of desolation provides a recognizable midpoint marker.
• The second half is repeatedly expressed as 1,260 days, forty-two months, or “time, times, and half a time.”
• The cosmic disturbances and gathering armies make the general nearness of the Second Coming unmistakable.
• Nevertheless, none of those signs necessarily tells the faithful remnant the exact hour when the Son of Man will appear.

So MacArthur’s stronger formulation—that the Second Coming cannot be anticipated because the whole calendar becomes hopelessly confused—is unnecessary. The simpler distinction is:

The prophetic period is knowable; the precise moment is not.

That is entirely compatible with Matthew 24:33:

“When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.”

They can know that His coming is near, while still not knowing its precise day-and-hour execution.

The “hour” really is comparatively narrow​

The Greek ὥρα (hōra) can occasionally mean a broader “time” or “occasion,” so one should not argue that it must always denote a literal sixty-minute unit. Nevertheless, in this passage its accumulation alongside “day” plainly intensifies precision:

“Of that day and hour knoweth no man.”

Then:

“Ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”

And:

“In such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The rhetoric moves toward the unannounced moment of arrival, not necessarily complete ignorance of the prophetic era. Thus the transition-view argument—

“The Tribulation return can be calculated, therefore Matthew 24:36 cannot concern the Second Coming”

—is much weaker than its advocates make it sound.


A person may know that an event will occur within a tightly defined prophetic window without knowing the exact moment within that window.

Your scroll-opening proposal​

Your second observation is interesting and internally coherent within a futurist dispensational synthesis:

1. Christ receives and opens the sealed scroll in heaven.
2. The first seal releases the first rider.
3. The first rider is identified with the covenant-making ruler of Daniel 9:27.
4. That development commences Daniel’s seventieth week.
5. The exact heavenly moment when Christ initiates that sequence is known only to the Father until it occurs.

That provides a plausible explanation for why the initiating instant cannot be calculated beforehand.

Only God knows the precise heavenly moment when Christ will open the scroll and set the final prophetic sequence in motion. If the first seal coincides with the commencement of Daniel’s seventieth week, then the exact beginning of that week is divinely controlled and unknowable beforehand.

 

[ZNP]

It is not unique. But it is fringe crazy train nuttery.

Cv5's claims are not trustworthy

I gave you a chance to repent, you have doubled down.

The Revelation 12 sign in 2017

On September 23, 2017, the sun was in front of the star group called Virgo. The moon was under her feet. Jupiter was inside her womb, like a baby inside its mother. And 12 stars made a crown above her head and she was in labor to give birth. They say this matches a Bible verse in Revelation 12 exactly, and that it never happened this way before.

The false Debunker

A science teacher at a community college named Christopher Graney said this wasn't special at all. He said the same basic pattern — sun in Virgo, moon at her feet, Jupiter somewhere in Virgo — happened at least four other times in the last 1,000 years:

• September 14, 1056
• September 5, 1293
• September 6, 1483
• September 24, 1827

He said the only thing that really changes each time is how many stars happen to be near her head, since that depends on which planets are also up there that night.

Checking His Work

We used a computer program to check real star and planet positions for all five of these dates (2017 plus his four).

First question: Was Jupiter in the womb of Virgo for nine months in any of his dates? Answer: No.

When did Jupiter actually do its backward loop each year?

• 1056: January to May
• 1293: January to May
• 1483: January to May
• 1827: January to June

So every single year he gave us Jupiter does this backward loop around the same time of year. That part is normal and happens because of how Jupiter and Earth orbit the sun — not something rare.

The Bigger Question: Where Was Jupiter During That Loop?

Here's the important part. Was it actually inside "the womb" of Virgo?

"The womb" is a much smaller, specific part of Virgo in the middle, marked by two lines between three stars:

• One line between the stars Spica and Porrima marks where Jupiter enters the womb.
• Another line between Spica and Heze marks where Jupiter exits the womb.

In 2017, using these lines, Jupiter entered the womb on November 30, 2016 and left it on September 19, 2017 — that's about 9 months and 20 days, almost exactly like a real human pregnancy. And this happened right around when Jupiter's backward loop finished — so Jupiter was retrograde ("resting" like a baby before birth) while inside the womb, then moved forward again ("was born") right around September, matching the Bible verse's timing. (Simply go to Stellarium, plug in the dates and you can see for yourself)

Now compare that to the other years:

• In 1483, Jupiter's backward loop happened entirely outside the womb boundaries. Jupiter only entered the womb area in September, and was just quickly passing through — it wasn't "resting" inside like a baby, it was already moving forward the whole time it was there.
• In 1827, the same thing happened — the backward loop was already finished and happened somewhere else, and Jupiter just walked through the womb area in September like a passerby, not a baby being carried and then born.

This is a big difference. It means that even though Graney is right that "sun in Virgo + moon at her feet + Jupiter somewhere in Virgo" happens over and over, the specific pattern of "Jupiter goes into the exact womb spot, rests there through its backward loop like a pregnancy, and then leaves right around September" is not something confirmed for his four comparison years. So far only 2017 matches that pattern.

"Did Jupiter's backward loop happen while it was specifically inside the narrow womb zone, ending close to September?" — currently only appears to fit 2017, based on what we've checked. I have checked the other dates using Stellarium.

Bottom Line

Graney did not debunk the uniqueness of the Revelation 12 sign in 2017 and Cv5 has been pushing this phony narrative as proof that this sign was not a great sign in the heavens. He was given a chance to check his work, he was told flat out that it wouldn't hold up, and yet he persisted in pushing a phony narrative.

 

[cv5]

Cv5's claims are not trustworthy

I gave you a chance to repent, you have doubled down.

The Revelation 12 sign in 2017

On September 23, 2017, the sun was in front of the star group called Virgo. The moon was under her feet. Jupiter was inside her womb, like a baby inside its mother. And 12 stars made a crown above her head and she was in labor to give birth. They say this matches a Bible verse in Revelation 12 exactly, and that it never happened this way before.

The false Debunker

A science teacher at a community college named Christopher Graney said this wasn't special at all. He said the same basic pattern — sun in Virgo, moon at her feet, Jupiter somewhere in Virgo — happened at least four other times in the last 1,000 years:

• September 14, 1056
• September 5, 1293
• September 6, 1483
• September 24, 1827

He said the only thing that really changes each time is how many stars happen to be near her head, since that depends on which planets are also up there that night.

Checking His Work

We used a computer program to check real star and planet positions for all five of these dates (2017 plus his four).

First question: Was Jupiter in the womb of Virgo for nine months in any of his dates? Answer: No.

When did Jupiter actually do its backward loop each year?

• 1056: January to May
• 1293: January to May
• 1483: January to May
• 1827: January to June

So every single year he gave us Jupiter does this backward loop around the same time of year. That part is normal and happens because of how Jupiter and Earth orbit the sun — not something rare.

The Bigger Question: Where Was Jupiter During That Loop?

Here's the important part. Was it actually inside "the womb" of Virgo?

"The womb" is a much smaller, specific part of Virgo in the middle, marked by two lines between three stars:

• One line between the stars Spica and Porrima marks where Jupiter enters the womb.
• Another line between Spica and Heze marks where Jupiter exits the womb.

In 2017, using these lines, Jupiter entered the womb on November 30, 2016 and left it on September 19, 2017 — that's about 9 months and 20 days, almost exactly like a real human pregnancy. And this happened right around when Jupiter's backward loop finished — so Jupiter was retrograde ("resting" like a baby before birth) while inside the womb, then moved forward again ("was born") right around September, matching the Bible verse's timing. (Simply go to Stellarium, plug in the dates and you can see for yourself)

Now compare that to the other years:

• In 1483, Jupiter's backward loop happened entirely outside the womb boundaries. Jupiter only entered the womb area in September, and was just quickly passing through — it wasn't "resting" inside like a baby, it was already moving forward the whole time it was there.
• In 1827, the same thing happened — the backward loop was already finished and happened somewhere else, and Jupiter just walked through the womb area in September like a passerby, not a baby being carried and then born.

This is a big difference. It means that even though Graney is right that "sun in Virgo + moon at her feet + Jupiter somewhere in Virgo" happens over and over, the specific pattern of "Jupiter goes into the exact womb spot, rests there through its backward loop like a pregnancy, and then leaves right around September" is not something confirmed for his four comparison years. So far only 2017 matches that pattern.

"Did Jupiter's backward loop happen while it was specifically inside the narrow womb zone, ending close to September?" — currently only appears to fit 2017, based on what we've checked. I have checked the other dates using Stellarium.

Bottom Line

Graney did not debunk the uniqueness of the Revelation 12 sign in 2017 and Cv5 has been pushing this phony narrative as proof that this sign was not a great sign in the heavens. He was given a chance to check his work, he was told flat out that it wouldn't hold up, and yet he persisted in pushing a phony narrative.

So you are saying that Isaiah is talking about Jupiter doing a loop in a Babylonian/Roman constellation's womb in 2017?

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[Psalm1]

The rapture refers to Christians alive at the moment Christ returns rising to meet him in the air along with Christians who are resurrected.

God rewards everyone who satisfies His condition for salvation, whether martyred or not, with heaven.
None are left behind!

Who are the innumerable number in heaven and coming out of the GT.?
Are they left behind ?
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Quote
"None are left behind!"

I thought you said scripture was necessary and you instruct others to post a verse????
1) mat 24. ..50% left behind
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Before the flood half are left behind.

2) mat 25....50% left behind

Matthew 25 50% left behind
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

(Now note that both "left behinds" are FRAMED IN "WATCH FOR MY COMING")
50% left behind at his coming.
Said by Jesus TWICE almost in the same breath.

So....you were saying?

 

[Psalm1]

The rapture refers to Christians alive at the moment Christ returns rising to meet him in the air along with Christians who are resurrected.

God rewards everyone who satisfies His condition for salvation, whether martyred or not, with heaven.
None are left behind!

No scripture

 

[Psalm1]

I cited Scripture supporting what I said, so please do us the same courtesy.

I cited mat 24.
So, no, again, you are wrong about that also.

 

[ZNP]

So you are saying that Isaiah is talking about Jupiter doing a loop in a Babylonian/Roman constellation's womb in 2017?

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

No, I am saying

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

refers to a great wonder in heaven, the sign of Virgo clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and she is with child and travailing in birth.

 

[Psalm1]

Maybe the lamps are their Bibles: “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path.” Maybe the vessels with their lamps are their bodies. Lots of people have Bibles and read them, but do not have the Holy Spirit in their vessels (their bodies), as the foolish virgins did. Many people have Bibles and read them who have the Holy Spirit in their vessels (their bodies), but have stopped fellowshipping with Jesus (the Groom), but still hang out with the church (the Bride), as the wise virgins did.

A bible can run out of oil?.
Makes no sense.
People can have various levels of oil (the Holy Spirit).
Lamps are our spirit .
The spirit of man is the realm the Holy Spirit resides.

The parable is overly simple.
Needs no complex tampering.

 

[Psalm1]

You have never heard of nominal Christians who hang out with spirit-led Christians, read the Bible and believe it's a good book to guide one? You have never met Christians who have become distracted from Jesus, but still believe the Bible is God’s word ?

Yes 5 wise virgins = 5 wise believers.
5 foolish virgins = 5 foolish believers.

 

[GWH]

Who are the innumerable number in heaven and coming out of the GT.?
Are they left behind ?
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Quote
"None are left behind!"

I thought you said scripture was necessary and you instruct others to post a verse????
1) mat 24. ..50% left behind
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Before the flood half are left behind.

2) mat 25....50% left behind

Matthew 25 50% left behind
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

(Now note that both "left behinds" are FRAMED IN "WATCH FOR MY COMING")
50% left behind at his coming.
Said by Jesus TWICE almost in the same breath.

So....you were saying?

You will have to ask John what he means in Revelation, because no one else has been able to figure it out for sure.

The foolish virgins in Matt. must refer to pseudo-Christians per Matt. 7:21-23.

 

[cv5]

You will have to ask John what he means in Revelation, because no one else has been able to figure it out for sure.

The foolish virgins in Matt. must refer to pseudo-Christians per Matt. 7:21-23.

Close. But since this parable is chronologically post-harpazo, the term Christian does not apply....

 

[cv5]

No, I am saying

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

refers to a great wonder in heaven, the sign of Virgo clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and she is with child and travailing in birth.

Your intuition is entirely correct. The idea that Revelation 12 is a coded cryptographic prediction pointing to a literal, physical alignment of the planet Jupiter inside the constellation Virgo (popularized heavily around September 2017) relies on a severe misunderstanding of both ancient Israelite culture and biblical hermeneutics.

Your skepticism is well-founded for several distinct reasons:
### 1. Strict Prohibition of Astrology in Ancient Israel
You rightly noted that mainstream Israelite society and biblical law strictly shunned the zodiac and astrological divination.
* **The Torah and Prophets:** Scripture explicitly condemns looking to the signs of the zodiac for guidance or prophetic meaning (e.g., Deuteronomy 4:19, Isaiah 47:13-14).
* **Cultural Context:** While surrounding pagan nations (like the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans) heavily mapped their mythologies onto the stars (such as naming Jupiter after the king of the gods or viewing Virgo through various mythological lenses), faithful Jews viewed the heavenly bodies strictly as markers for seasons, days, and years (Genesis 1:14), and as a testament to God's glory—not as a celestial calendar for future events or a canvas for Roman-named deities like Jupiter.
### 2. The Imagery is Old Testament, Not Astrological
When John writes the Book of Revelation, he is writing in a deeply **Jewish apocalyptic style**, saturating his text with Old Testament allusions rather than Greco-Roman stargazing.
* **The Woman:** The imagery of the woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet" directly mirrors **Joseph’s dream** in Genesis 37:9–10, where the sun, moon, and eleven stars bow down to him, representing the patriarchal family and the nation of Israel.
* **The Identity:** The woman represents the covenant community of God (Israel, from whom the Messiah physically came, and by extension, the faithful church). The "twelve stars" on her head naturally point to the **twelve tribes of Israel** or the **twelve apostles**, not a forced celestial math equation involving the nine stars of Leo plus three wandering planets.
### 3. The "Jupiter Loop" Requires Mathematical and Interpretive Gymnastics
The claim that Jupiter's retrograde motion inside Virgo represents a "nine-month human gestation period" falls apart under basic scrutiny:
* **Fudge Factors:** To make the "twelve-star crown" work, proponents have to artificially combine the nine stars of the constellation Leo with three randomly shifting planets (Mercury, Venus, and Mars) that happen to pass nearby.
* **Frequency:** Planetary movements are cyclical. Critics and astronomers have pointed out that Jupiter passes through the broad expanse of Virgo roughly every 12 years, and similar loose configurations of the sun, moon, and planets in those constellations have happened multiple times throughout history (e.g., in 1827, 1483, 1293, and 1056 AD) without fulfilling the sweeping, apocalyptic narrative of Revelation 12.
### Summary
Treating Revelation 12 as a puzzle solved by modern planetarium software (*Stellarium*) changes a profound theological and pastoral symbol into a form of Christianized astrology. The text uses grand cosmic imagery to describe spiritual realities—the historic birth of Christ, the cosmic battle between God's people and the forces of evil, and the protection of the faithful—rather than tying God's prophetic timeline to a Roman-named gas giant looping through a Babylonian-defined
constellation.

 

[Fillan]

Nowhere in the New Testament is the church referred to as "bridesmaids" for the wedding of the Lord. So then, who are these ten bridesmaids in Matthew 25?

Hello ZNP. Sometimes in the bible the church is compared to being the bride of Christ, in the Jewish wedding ceremony the bride would be returning with the bridegroom to the place of merriment, so the ten women with lamps are not the church, IMHO. The number ten does have significance in the Old Testament, the Ten tribes of Israel. I would say the wise and foolish virgins is referring to modern day Israel. Those who have oil in their lamps, though blinded by God until the fullness of the gentiles has come in, are waiting for their Messiah. Those with no oil, are just waiting. God Bless

 

[GWH]

Close. But since this parable is chronologically post-harpazo, the term Christian does not apply....

Why not?
IOW, why does "Christian" not apply to the wise virgins?
Did they not accept Jesus as Messiah/Christ?!

 

[ZNP]

Your intuition is entirely correct. The idea that Revelation 12 is a coded cryptographic prediction pointing to a literal, physical alignment of the planet Jupiter inside the constellation Virgo (popularized heavily around September 2017) relies on a severe misunderstanding of both ancient Israelite culture and biblical hermeneutics.

Your skepticism is well-founded for several distinct reasons:
### 1. Strict Prohibition of Astrology in Ancient Israel
You rightly noted that mainstream Israelite society and biblical law strictly shunned the zodiac and astrological divination.
* **The Torah and Prophets:** Scripture explicitly condemns looking to the signs of the zodiac for guidance or prophetic meaning (e.g., Deuteronomy 4:19, Isaiah 47:13-14).

This isn't astrology it is astronomy and the Bible says very clearly that God made the sun, moon and starts for signs and seasons. This is idiotic to say the Bible prohibits this. The wise men saw the Lord's star in the heavens and that is what brought them to Bethlehem.

This is a well-attested theme running through both Testaments. Here's the core scriptural basis:

Genesis 1:14 — the foundational text
"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."

The Hebrew word for "signs" here is otot (plural of oth), the same word used elsewhere for covenant signs (like the rainbow in Genesis 9:12-13) and miraculous signs (like the plagues in Exodus). So from the very creation account, the heavenly bodies are assigned a signaling function, not just a light-giving one.


Psalm 19:1-2
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge."

This establishes the heavens as a communicative medium.


Joel 2:30-31
"And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth... The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come."

This becomes the template Peter quotes at Pentecost (Acts 2:19-20) and that shows up again in Revelation's seal/trumpet judgments.


Matthew 24:29-30 / Luke 21:25
Jesus explicitly links celestial disturbance to eschatological signs: "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven... and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven." Luke's version adds, "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars."


Revelation 12:1-3
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... And there appeared another wonder in heaven."

The Greek word translated "wonder" here is sēmeion — literally "sign," the same word used throughout John's Gospel for Jesus's miracles. John explicitly frames this as a heavenly sign, tying it back to the Genesis 1:14 function and the Joel/Matthew 24 pattern of celestial signs marking redemptive-historical turning points.


Supporting texts on stars/constellations specifically

• Job 38:31-33 — God challenges Job on binding "the sweet influences of Pleiades" and knowing "the ordinances of heaven," implying built-in celestial meaning.
• Psalm 147:4 — God "telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names," suggesting intentional design and identity, not random scattering.

Taken together, the pattern is: Genesis establishes signs as a built-in function of the celestial order; the prophets (Joel) attach that function specifically to eschatological turning points; Jesus repeats the prophetic pattern for His return; and Revelation 12 explicitly invokes the technical term "sign" for a specific, dateable astronomical configuration.

This is not astrology. Astrology treats the sky as source and requires a system to extract meaning; biblical signs treat the sky as medium, with God as source and prior prophetic text as the interpretive key

Here's the core of how the distinction actually works:

1. Who is reading the sign, versus who is doing the acting

Astrology assumes the stars themselves possess causal or divinatory power — that their position and movement determine or reveal human fate independent of any personal, communicating God. The astrologer treats the sky as an autonomous oracle to be decoded through a fixed system (zodiacal influence, planetary "houses," etc.).

Biblical sign-events reverse the causality entirely. God is the agent; the heavens are the medium, not the source. Genesis 1:14 makes this explicit — God appoints the lights "for signs," meaning the sign-function is derivative and assigned, not inherent. The stars don't generate meaning on their own; they display a meaning that God attaches to them for a specific purpose. That's the difference between a billboard and a fortune-telling stone — the billboard only says something because someone put a message on it.

2. Deuteronomy 4:19 and 18:10-12 — what's actually condemned

Scripture's prohibitions target the worship of celestial bodies and the practice of divination — using observed phenomena to manipulate or predict apart from revelation, often tied to occult ritual (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 lists divination alongside sorcery and necromancy). Deuteronomy 4:19 warns against being "driven to worship" the sun, moon, and stars. Neither text prohibits God using celestial phenomena to communicate; it prohibits treating the phenomena as divine in themselves or trying to wrest hidden knowledge from them independent of revelation.

3. The Magi (Matthew 2) — a test case that proves the point

Scripture doesn't condemn them for noticing the star — it presents their observation as providentially used by God to bring them to worship the true King, and then immediately has them abandon their system's authority the moment special revelation (the prophetic text in Matthew 2:5-6, then the dream in 2:12) directs them. The star gets them to Judea; Scripture, not the star, tells them where in Judea. That sequence — natural sign leading to a specific, textually-anchored fulfillment, with special revelation correcting and completing it — is the opposite of an astrological system that reads meaning off the sky without needing textual confirmation at all.

4. Specificity and falsifiability versus a repeatable general system

Astrology operates as a general, repeatable interpretive grid — any birth under Capricorn gets the same traits, indefinitely, regardless of specific historical fulfillment. Biblical celestial signs are unrepeatable, dateable, single-fulfillment events tied to prior prophetic text. Revelation 12's sign isn't meaningful because "a woman clothed with the sun" is a stock astrological archetype — it's meaningful because John frames it with the technical term sēmeion and ties it to specific, non-repeating redemptive-historical content (the male child who is to rule the nations, the dragon, the flight into the wilderness). The configuration matters because of what it corresponds to in the Bible.

5. No mediating ritual or technique required

Astrology requires a technician — a system of houses, aspects, and calculations that someone must be trained in to "unlock" the meaning. Biblical sign-events are read directly off of prophetic Scripture already given; the star or darkened sun confirms or fulfills a specific prior word (Joel 2:31, Luke 21:25, the Matthew 2:6 citation of Micah), rather than requiring an interpretive technique to generate new hidden knowledge. The meaning pre-exists in the text; the sky event confirms it.

 

[ZNP]

Here are the clearest cases where a celestial or heavenly sign is explicitly anchored to prior scriptural text:

1. The Star of Bethlehem — Matthew 2:1-10, interpreted via Micah 5:2
The Magi saw the star and came to Jerusalem, but the star alone didn't tell them where the king would be born. Herod's chief priests and scribes had to supply the answer from Scripture: "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet" (Matthew 2:5), quoting Micah 5:2 directly. The sign in the sky prompted the search; the written prophetic text resolved it. This is the cleanest example in Scripture of a heavenly sign being subordinated to, and interpreted by, prior revelation.

2. Pentecost — Acts 2:16-21, interpreted via Joel 2:28-32
When the crowd witnessed the phenomena at Pentecost, Peter didn't offer a new interpretation — he said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16), then quoted Joel 2:28-32 in full, including the sun-to-darkness, moon-to-blood language. The event is read entirely through a pre-existing prophetic text, explicitly named as such.

3. The darkness at the crucifixion — Matthew 27:45, read against Amos 8:9 and joined to a torn veil and earthquake
The synoptics record three hours of darkness at the crucifixion. While the Gospel writers don't insert an explicit "this fulfills X" citation the way Peter does at Pentecost, the darkness closely echoes Amos 8:9 ("I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day"), and early Christian writers consistently read it that way — a heavenly sign interpreted against a specific prior prophetic text rather than left as a standalone omen.

4. Jesus's Olivet Discourse itself — Matthew 24:29-30, built entirely from Isaiah, Joel, and Daniel
Jesus's own description of end-time celestial signs is a mosaic of earlier texts: the sun/moon darkening language draws on Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4, and "the sign of the Son of man" appearing plus "coming in the clouds" draws on Daniel 7:13-14. Jesus is not describing a new, freestanding astral system — he's telling His disciples to interpret future celestial disturbance through Scripture they already had.

5. Genesis 15:5 and the stars as a sign of covenant promise, interpreted by Paul in Romans 4:18-21 and Galatians 3:6-9
God shows Abram the stars as a visual pledge ("So shall thy seed be," Genesis 15:5), and this is not left as a mystical astral experience — it's directly tied to the spoken covenant word immediately before and after it (Genesis 15:4-6), and Paul later interprets the whole episode doctrinally as the paradigm of justification by faith. The sign gets its meaning strictly from the accompanying word, not from the stars' arrangement.

6. Isaiah 7:14 and the sign to Ahaz
Not a stellar sign in the strict sense, but structurally the same principle: God offers Ahaz a sign "in the depth, or in the height above" (Isaiah 7:11), and the sign (the virgin/young woman bearing a son) is given content and meaning entirely by the accompanying prophetic word — nothing is left for Ahaz to divine on his own.

The common thread across all of these
In every case, the sequence is:
(1) a heavenly or visible phenomenon occurs,
(2) someone already holding a written prophetic text recognizes the correspondence, and
(3) the text — not independent astral interpretation — supplies the meaning.

That's the pattern I am following with the Revelation 12 sign: the woman, dragon, and male child need to be identified against prior scriptural content (Genesis 3:15, Daniel 7, Isaiah 66:7).

 

[cv5]

A bible can run out of oil?.
Makes no sense.
People can have various levels of oil (the Holy Spirit).
Lamps are our spirit .
The spirit of man is the realm the Holy Spirit resides.

The parable is overly simple.
Needs no complex tampering.

They had zero oil.....just a dry wick.

[Mat 25:3 NKJV] 3 "Those who [were] foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,

Evidently a deliberate (and contemptuous) CHOICE. In fact they were perfectly well aware of the fact that the wise virgins DID have oil..... probably from the outset.

[Mat 25:8 NKJV] 8 "And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us [some] of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'

 

[cv5]

Here are the clearest cases where a celestial or heavenly sign is explicitly anchored to prior scriptural text:

1. The Star of Bethlehem — Matthew 2:1-10, interpreted via Micah 5:2
The Magi saw the star and came to Jerusalem, but the star alone didn't tell them where the king would be born. Herod's chief priests and scribes had to supply the answer from Scripture: "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet" (Matthew 2:5), quoting Micah 5:2 directly. The sign in the sky prompted the search; the written prophetic text resolved it. This is the cleanest example in Scripture of a heavenly sign being subordinated to, and interpreted by, prior revelation.

2. Pentecost — Acts 2:16-21, interpreted via Joel 2:28-32
When the crowd witnessed the phenomena at Pentecost, Peter didn't offer a new interpretation — he said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16), then quoted Joel 2:28-32 in full, including the sun-to-darkness, moon-to-blood language. The event is read entirely through a pre-existing prophetic text, explicitly named as such.

3. The darkness at the crucifixion — Matthew 27:45, read against Amos 8:9 and joined to a torn veil and earthquake
The synoptics record three hours of darkness at the crucifixion. While the Gospel writers don't insert an explicit "this fulfills X" citation the way Peter does at Pentecost, the darkness closely echoes Amos 8:9 ("I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day"), and early Christian writers consistently read it that way — a heavenly sign interpreted against a specific prior prophetic text rather than left as a standalone omen.

4. Jesus's Olivet Discourse itself — Matthew 24:29-30, built entirely from Isaiah, Joel, and Daniel
Jesus's own description of end-time celestial signs is a mosaic of earlier texts: the sun/moon darkening language draws on Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4, and "the sign of the Son of man" appearing plus "coming in the clouds" draws on Daniel 7:13-14. Jesus is not describing a new, freestanding astral system — he's telling His disciples to interpret future celestial disturbance through Scripture they already had.

5. Genesis 15:5 and the stars as a sign of covenant promise, interpreted by Paul in Romans 4:18-21 and Galatians 3:6-9
God shows Abram the stars as a visual pledge ("So shall thy seed be," Genesis 15:5), and this is not left as a mystical astral experience — it's directly tied to the spoken covenant word immediately before and after it (Genesis 15:4-6), and Paul later interprets the whole episode doctrinally as the paradigm of justification by faith. The sign gets its meaning strictly from the accompanying word, not from the stars' arrangement.

6. Isaiah 7:14 and the sign to Ahaz
Not a stellar sign in the strict sense, but structurally the same principle: God offers Ahaz a sign "in the depth, or in the height above" (Isaiah 7:11), and the sign (the virgin/young woman bearing a son) is given content and meaning entirely by the accompanying prophetic word — nothing is left for Ahaz to divine on his own.

The common thread across all of these
In every case, the sequence is:
(1) a heavenly or visible phenomenon occurs,
(2) someone already holding a written prophetic text recognizes the correspondence, and
(3) the text — not independent astral interpretation — supplies the meaning.

That's the pattern I am following with the Revelation 12 sign: the woman, dragon, and male child need to be identified against prior scriptural content (Genesis 3:15, Daniel 7, Isaiah 66:7).

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum (in works like *The Footsteps of the Messiah* and his studies on *Messianic Christology*) holds a strict supernatural position regarding the Star of Bethlehem, completely rejecting any naturalistic or astrological explanations.
His breakdown of the star and its timing aligns directly with what you reasoned:
### 1. What the Star Was: The *Shechinah* Glory
Fruchtenbaum argues that the "star" (*aster*) was **not a literal astronomical body**, planet, or conjunction. He points to the physical actions described in Matthew 2 that defy the laws of physics for any normal celestial object:
* It appeared and disappeared.
* It moved dynamically from east to west (guiding them from Babylon to Jerusalem).
* It moved from north to south (from Jerusalem down to Bethlehem).
* It hovered locally and stood directly over *one specific house* (a literal star doing that would destroy the earth through gravitational catastrophe).
Instead, Fruchtenbaum concludes that the "star" was the reappearance of the **Shechinah Glory**—the visible, localized manifestation of God's presence (the same pillar of cloud/fire from the Exodus and the glory that filled the Temple). To observers miles away in the east, it looked like a brilliant, radiant star breaking out in the sky.
### 2. How the Magi Knew: The Written Legacy of Balaam and Daniel
Regarding how the Magi knew what to look for, Fruchtenbaum traces their knowledge back to two foundational roots in Mesopotamia:
* **Balaam’s Prophecy (Numbers 24:17):** *"There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel."* Balaam originally uttered this prophecy from the eastern mountains (Mesopotamia/Pethor). Fruchtenbaum notes that this specific, written Messianic expectation was preserved among the scribal and scholarly classes in the East for centuries.
* **Daniel’s Influence:** As chief of the astrologers/wise men in Babylon, Daniel explicitly integrated Jewish prophetic truth into the administrative and intellectual history of the region—including precise timelines like the 490 years (Daniel’s Seventy Weeks).
### 3. The Timing
In traditional dispensational chronologies championed by scholars like Fruchtenbaum, the birth of Christ is typically dated around **5 to 4 BC** (due to Herod's death traditionally placed in 4 BC, though some debate points to slightly adjusted timelines).
Crucially, Fruchtenbaum views the timing through the lens of **sovereign divine intervention meeting preserved written revelation**, rather than a cyclical calendar formula. The Magi saw a miraculous, unrepeatable manifestation of God's glory because the exact timing of the Incarnation had arrived—fulfilling the trajectory of Daniel’s timeline, completely independent of any routine planet
ary alignments.