No you didn't answer it with a simple yes or no. But you dont have to, i know how it would make you look.
Calvinism is Gospel !
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We seem to agree that God’s salvific work is transformative, but we disagree on when that transformation occurs. In your view, transformation comes after faith; in mine, transformation comes before faith. I see a logical connection between transformation and faith: a spiritually dead person cannot perform a spiritually alive act. Faith must arise from new life, not precede it. One could argue that regeneration and faith occur so close together that it feels like a photo‑finish, but even then the logical order remains. Scripture consistently presents inner transformation as a marker of God’s electing work, not as a universal ability granted to all people.
Do you believe a person can exercise saving faith before God has transformed their inner nature?
Oh that was supposed to be Calvinists in Salem? Didn't know
IF they were actually witches though.................
The OT certainly does not 'suffer a witch to live'. I don't suppose God has changed His mind on that one either.ps: don't mention Copeland again. nightmare fuel there
mr. or mz bright didn't write the op or any other post that sounds 'put together'. bright prefers things like 'you gonna burn in hell' and similar deeply religious sentiments
I think most if not all Calvinists are cessationists.
If what you state is true then God leaves people in their sin with no hope.
The other error is that nowhere does scripture state that regeneration precedes faith, regeneration is salvation and sanctification cannot precede justification.
God will not regenerate you unless Christ has already Justified you by His blood and cleared your legal status to righteous. Its based upon that He gives Spiritual life inwardly by the Spirit. First Legal righteousness then inner righteousness.
Well I am glad to read you have come to your senses... Belief/Faith in Christ >>> Declared righteous by faith and then Regeneration.
I hear you. But your objection is resolved in a more complete understanding of God's providence.
Predestination is not merely the outcome of God’s choice; it is the outworking of a story God is telling, and it is a good story. God’s sovereignty is not mechanical but narrative—He not only ordains the final moment in history, He shapes every moment along the way to serve His redemptive purpose. Joseph’s life is the prime example. His brothers’ betrayal was genuinely evil, yet God wove every scene—from the pit, to Potiphar’s house, to prison, to Pharaoh’s court—into a trajectory that fulfilled His will and preserved His people. The point is not to speculate about how God accomplishes this but to recognize the essential truth Scripture insists upon: God is in control, and He is good. Predestination is not cold determinism; it is the assurance that the Author of history is writing a story in which even the darkest chapters serve His righteous and gracious ends.
Predestination, properly understood, is hopeful, encouraging, and fulfilling.
I am uncertain as to your reasoning, so I will not try to evaluate your stated position. You simply assert that “regeneration does not precede faith” and that “sanctification cannot precede justification,” but you never explain why you believe these things.
So, please allow me to make a few assumptions to keep the conversation moving in a positive direction. I am going to assume that your assertions come with certain typical assumptions, so correct me if I am wrong. For example, sanctification is often reduced to moral improvement, as though it were merely the gradual shaping of character. But biblically, sanctification is first and foremost consecration—God’s act of setting apart an individual for Himself and for His purposes. And the marker of that consecration is not moral achievement but belief in what God has said. When God sanctifies someone—sets them apart for Himself—the first evidence of that divine act is faith. In that sense, sanctification in its consecrating dimension can indeed precede justification, because faith itself is the sign that God has already claimed and set apart the person who now believes.
As I say, my intent is not to set up a straw man. So correct me where I went wrong.
Apparently you have never read Scripture with an open mind seeking to learn the truth.
If salvation is not possible, then sinners cannot justly/logically be blamed for not seeking it.
What kind of God would condemn humanity to hell? Not a kind God.
What sort of person would choose to believe in a hateful God?
Those who project their own hatred onto God and are hell-bound for such heresy.
You obviously dont have a clue of what I just posted.
I believe the purpose of earthly existence is for souls to learn their need for God's salvation
from mortality and immorality and to eternal joyful fellowship with God in heaven.
So, yes, I believe everyone can learn/believe this truth.
God initiates/teaches; sinners may cooperate/learn--or not.
To put divine regeneration before human faith makes God into an unjust Ogre for not regenerating everyone.
And to view saving faith as work/meritorious is unScriptural. It is merely accepting God's grace per Eph. 2:8-9.
Rip out the entire OT from your Bible, throw it away, and forget it altogether. And by law, I should have said Tanach, that even includes Ezekiel 36:25-27.
Then reevaluate what you couldn't see. While there, consider the difference between Christology and eisegesis. Most can't see any distinction there either; most apply the layer of Christology and insert whatever they want into every page throughout the OT anyway. Even the most "conservative" Christians are "liberal" interpreters without any respect to the historical context and audience, including what was believed by the intended audience at the time.
Perhaps you'll see a contradiction then about who, what, where, and why you couldn't see past the NT writers and modern interpreters?
I'm going to address you directly and wish I could do it face-to-face, man to man.
The OT commands the death of anybody that commits homosexuality, which is symbolically represented by that modern rainbow flag.
I haven't ever seen a TULIP flag in any Reformed church before.
I don't know the kind of Calvinist that wanders the halls here in this forum. But I do know the type of Calvinist that died on the battlefield of the Revolutionary War; 2/3rds of the soldiers were Calvinist.
I'm going to refrain from saying anything else to you because you aren't a true believer and are nothing more than unsaved trash. What you called mentally ill or borderline heresy and then insinuated was no different than Calvinism shows how man-centered you are. G-d commands the death of homosexuals, for example, but man always knows better and has a better solution, and that is, man knows best. Like the Jews under the oppression and suppression of Rome, you should be thankful to be under a Calvinist-framed government in America.
I'd love to confront you face to face, man to man, mouth, so you could say that to my face.
But because I can't, I'll just ignore you.
They were tried, e.g., trials. And despite many misconceptions, those witches were not burned at the stake. And the total numbers were fewer than 20 tried, convicted, and put to death.Oh that was supposed to be Calvinists in Salem? Didn't know
IF they were actually witches though.................
ps: don't mention Copeland again. nightmare fuel there
Modern armchair historians suggest that Calvinists blamed them for various plagues. Obviously, those critics don't know witchcraft and what witchcraft can do to others, obviously, by the penalty of law. The law doesn't command the death of "comedians."
Most people empathize with witches, only thinking of cute Harry Potter.
There is wisdom when the Scripture goes silent; for example, the Scriptures do not reveal the method of Pharaoh's magicians, etc.
And you nailed it @pinebeach G-d is immutable, and the Law reveals He is Holy.
That's the kind of response I expect here.I think you need to get help from a professional therapist, be it a pastor or other type of clinician.
And having said that, that's all I need to hear. I wouldn't associate with most people here in person.
Thank G-d for sects or denominations (1 Cor. 11:19).
People drawn to this system have profound psychological issues and they use the system to deal with them rather than actually
turning to God for healing, that is what I see when I read so many of their posts,
accusing people of having a creepy smile (yes that happened) attacking a person's ethnicity (yes that happened) calling people liars incessantly and so much more.....and now saying the unsaved are trash... well that is imho regarding who Calvinists are, they need to get help because they hate people and make God in their image.
It doesn't surprise me that you turn to secular psychology.
Secular psychology has replaced the church ministry; psychologists and healthcare workers are modern secular priests.
Attaching somebody's mental condition is a tactic used by secularists to destroy credibility.
Gotta love today's weaponization of the healthcare system.
Even more so, how much your children and their children are going to love it too.
It's revealing to find what is written in the OT regarding witches...can be either male or female. It's mostly 'words', not some hag stirring a cauldron with bat wings and eyes of newt. I won't say more other than they were to be put to death and never mourned over even it was someone you loved. Well enough...curiosity killed the cat after all.
Your argument relies on human philosophy and emotional labels rather than the clear text of Scripture. Calling God an 'unjust Ogre' for exercising His sovereign right to show mercy is the exact objection Paul dismantled 2,000 years ago.
In Romans 9:14, Paul anticipates your exact emotional response: 'Is there unrighteousness with God?' His answer is an absolute 'God forbid.' He states clearly in verse 16: 'So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.' If God owes salvation to no one, He is not 'unjust' for regenerating only His elect. Justice is hell; salvation is unmerited mercy. [1, 2, 3, 4]
You claim that 'sinners may cooperate/learn.' But 1 Corinthians 2:14 completely shatters this: 'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' An unregenerate sinner cannot 'learn' their need for God or 'cooperate' with the Gospel because they are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). A corpse cannot cooperate with its own resurrection. [1, 2, 3, 4]
You cite Ephesians 2:8-9, but you ignore the context of verses 4–5: 'Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.' God does not wait for a dead man to 'accept' grace before quickening him. The quickening (regeneration) happens while we are dead. [1, 2, 3]
Faith is not a work, but it is an action performed by a living heart. Because the natural heart is stone (Ezekiel 36:26), God must sovereignly replace it with a heart of flesh before that person can or will believe. Regeneration must precede faith, otherwise you have a spiritually dead man performing a spiritual act. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
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