You must have meant to quote someone else.
My question was: So, when Paul said that "Abraham's descendants" really meant "Abraham's singular Seed which was Christ" you understand Paul's definition to be the true one, correct?
More about Israel.
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My question was: So, when Paul said that "Abraham's descendants" really meant "Abraham's singular Seed which was Christ" you understand Paul's definition to be the true one, correct?
My question was purposeful and to the point. Any claim that the OT has more than one meaning must provide an example. The example you raised from the book of Galatians isn't a case where Paul is seeing another meaning in the Genesis passage that we can't see.
Paul is not claiming that Moses secretly meant “Christ” when he wrote zeraʿ (“seed”). He is claiming that God’s promise in Genesis was always aimed at a single, climactic heir, and Christ is the fulfillment of that promise. In other words, Paul is reading Genesis teleologically, not allegorically.
Paul is not making a narrow, grammatical‑exegetical claim in Galatians 3:16. His argument is theological, covenantal, and canonical—not a piece of microscopic Hebrew grammar analysis.
Paul is not saying:
He is saying:
That’s a canonical‑promise reading, not a grammatical argument.
Amen amen amen.
Always about Jesus, the creator, not any other created man.
That's why we should go back to 1st commandment, thou shall have no other gods before me.
Hello. If you are referring to the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant itself is not the mechanism of salvation as I have already stated previously. It contains the promise of the Messiah, but it does not confer salvation. Remember, this covenant is unconditional.
What has been set forth is of extreme importance in understanding OT scripture and how anointed , God ordained men like Paul explains it. The stories, ordinances , statues and covenants and people and things associated there with all have a deeper and spiritual meaning that will be grasped by the spiritually taught. The feast of the passover had a deeper spiritual meaning 1 Cor 5:7
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
The us, the Spiritual Israel.
Other things like the altar, the priesthood, the sacrifices, laver and incense and other items under the OT all have a deeper spiritual meaning that is to be conveyed to God's Covenant People living under the NT..
Lets look at some examples : The altar Ex 27:1
1 And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.
This was a type and prefigured the spiritual altar of the New Covenant Heb 13:10
10 We have an altar[Christ], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
The Laver of washing Ex 30:18-21
18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.
19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
The laver typifies the once and for all washing of regeneration as well as the continual washing or cleansing in our daily lives from the defilement of sin..
I of course could go on, but the point is to show that OT history typifies and finds it's fulfillment in the NT, that goes for the People as well. 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
The us, the Spiritual Israel.
Other things like the altar, the priesthood, the sacrifices, laver and incense and other items under the OT all have a deeper spiritual meaning that is to be conveyed to God's Covenant People living under the NT..
Lets look at some examples : The altar Ex 27:1
1 And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.
This was a type and prefigured the spiritual altar of the New Covenant Heb 13:10
10 We have an altar[Christ], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
The Laver of washing Ex 30:18-21
18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.
19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
The laver typifies the once and for all washing of regeneration as well as the continual washing or cleansing in our daily lives from the defilement of sin..
I of course could go on, but the point is to show that OT history typifies and finds it's fulfillment in the NT, that goes for the People as well. 5
A fully unconditional covenant would include all, otherwise there must be a group of people who do not meet the conditions to inherit it.
Is it unconditional to Abraham and all that are in Christ Jesus,
or is it unconditional to all that carry a qualifying % of Abraham's DNA,
or is it any other group of people that can be defined by man?
Who is authorized to define this group?
Does the whole Bible (including the NT) support your particular claim?
Ah. I see what you meant. I agree with your conclusion.
However, there are many natural things in creation that have a spiritual antecedent in eternity.
What can wash my sins away....nothing but the blood of Jesus....which was both jew and gentile....so I think all
Israel the Children of Promise !
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Israel, the Children of Promise ! There was a Children of Israel according to the flesh, and a children of Israel according to to Promise. Now to which Israel did God make the Promises to ? The Children of Israel according to the flesh or according to Promise, and without hesitation I answer the Israel, the Children of Promise.
How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise. 5
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Israel, the Children of Promise ! There was a Children of Israel according to the flesh, and a children of Israel according to to Promise. Now to which Israel did God make the Promises to ? The Children of Israel according to the flesh or according to Promise, and without hesitation I answer the Israel, the Children of Promise.
How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise. 5
Beekeeper, I appreciate the spirit behind your questions. They show you’re genuinely trying to understand how God’s promises work, and that’s something I deeply respect. Let me slow the conversation down a bit and speak to the heart of the issue.
When people describe the Abrahamic covenant as unconditional, they’re not saying it applies to everyone. They’re saying that God Himself carries the weight of fulfilling it, without requiring Abraham or his descendants to meet certain conditions for the covenant to remain in effect. It’s unconditional in the sense that God does not revoke it, not in the sense that it becomes universal.
And Scripture is very clear about who God made that covenant with. He names them:
- Abraham
- Isaac
- Jacob
- And the children of Jacob
Now, the New Testament opens the door wide for all nations to share in the blessing that flows from Abraham—salvation in Jesus, adoption into God’s family. Paul is careful to distinguish between the spiritual blessing for all nations and the national promises God still holds for Israel.
So when you ask whether the covenant is unconditional for “all who are in Christ,” I hear the desire to see God’s grace extended broadly—and it is. But the Abrahamic covenant and the New Covenant are two different gifts. One is about salvation for all nations. The other is about God’s faithfulness to a particular family He chose long ago.
I shared with you passages from previous posts; I hope you read them. If God Himself speaks these promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants, and if the prophets and apostles reaffirm them, then the question becomes:
How do we honor what God has spoken without redefining the people He spoke it to?
I’m not trying to win an argument here. I’m trying to be faithful to the story Scripture tells—a story where God keeps His promises, both to Israel and to the nations, without one canceling the other.
I see this as the key to a correct understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant.
It would clarify the meaning a lot more though if we were to say "Jesus is the one who defines".
Concerning the house of David it was prophesied: "He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" 2Samuel 7:13.
It is because of this prophesy that there was such great excitement when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, and such bitter disappointment when He was crucified so soon afterwards.
Both Mary and Joseph were born into the house of David, although the throne had been empty for many years by the time Jesus was born.
So the people were right in recognizing Jesus as the son of David and rightful king of Israel.
The people were also mistaken, as many Jews and Christians are to this day, in not recognizing the full extent of His authority and power, or the magnificent size of His true kingdom.
Revelations 11:15 "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
Here we have the fulfillment of 2Samuel 7:15, but notice that the borders of Jesus' kingdom has been expanded far beyond the borders of the land promised to Abraham.
Of course all the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates is given to Jesus too, and like the rest of the world He will do with it what He judges to be right.
His "rod of iron" might come in useful for that.
Another area of Jesus' authority is that he is also the king of heaven (John 18:36).
If Jesus was to establish the throne of David on this earth, that would not fulfill 2Samuel 7:13, because "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2Peter 3:10).
In other words, it is impossible for an earthly kingdom to last forever.
A literal 1000 years would also have an end.
Another area of Jesus' authority is that He is also the high priest.
Just as the Levites made ceremonial intersession for man to God with their sin offerings in the temple, Jesus, a priest forever after the order Melchizadek (a higher and order than that of Aaron) makes real intersession for the sins of His people, being Himself the temple (John 2:19).
Note that without the existence of a Temple it is impossible to keep the law of Moses, and that one of the consequences for breaking the law is: "ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." (Deuteronomy 28:63).
Notice also that for all who can repent and believe in Jesus Christ, there is not only a temple and a high priest, but the entire "Greater Israel" and the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant are theirs too.
I understand. Luke 17 says as much. I was thinking about the parables about the kingdom too, mustard seed, leaven, start off small and cover the entire earth then at the end of the age the tares are taken out from the kingdom, the field which is according to Jesus the world.
This fits perfectly. Praise His Holy name name!
Yeah Just like He separated the carnal jews from Spiritual Israel in the Olive Tree simile, the fakes were broken off Rom 11:17,19,20
Yeah. The postulate that the recipients of Abraham's promises were all his natural dependents falls apart in so many places only a scheme against the truth could foment the argument.
Consider also that Israel's status among Evangelicals - as irreproachable - has prevented the message of salvation from being effective among the Arab gentiles and many other people-groups. I often wonder with what guilt the Lord will credit the church for causing such a stumbling block in the path of so many.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Consider also that Israel's status among Evangelicals - as irreproachable - has prevented the message of salvation from being effective among the Arab gentiles and many other people-groups. I often wonder with what guilt the Lord will credit the church for causing such a stumbling block in the path of so many.
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Romans 11 tells us what He will do with it. The promise is the same in the OT as in the NT
Nope, we were grafted in, not the other way round. And we were told not to boast lest we too fall. We don't replace the Jews.
Romans 11 is talking about for any jew that accept Jesus, such as Paul, Peter, yes, they are children of God.
Same rule applies to all humanity.
No one is special.
Same rule applies to all humanity.
No one is special.