Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Mem]

If we told dirty rotten sinners that Jesus loves them, then we would by lying. We don't know who the Lord Jesus loves and who He hates. I don't want the blood of dirty rotten sinners on my hands, by telling them that Jesus loves them, only to find themselves being cast into the lake of fire by Jesus, while they beg for mercy.

What sort of love is it, to throw someone you love into the lake of fire to be tormented in flames for all eternity. Do you even care about the truth of the gospel, or is it too awful to proclaim to rotten sinners.

Why would He love you? You aren't a dirty rotten sinner? Rom 11:32 says that God consigned all to disobedience (Strong's Greek says 'willful unbelief') so that He may have mercy on them all. Everyone is bound in the imprisoned in disobedience. And Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.

It's not Jesus' hate that consigns anyone to the lake of fire. It is their portion, the share which they've claimed for themselves to hold dear, the right to love the lie and hate Him whom, in truth, is their true love, and their one and only life.

 

[Cameron143]

reneweddaybyday said:

If man is resisting Someone, then the Someone was the Initiator.​

If man is resisting, then man is aware of something ... whatever it is that is being resisted. Otherwise, man is just acting on their own initiative, not "resisting" anything.

If a person lacks awareness ... is "unknowing" ... he or she is not resisting.

The point is that God reaches out (initiates) and mankind either resists or does not resist.

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My kids can unknowingly be going against my wishes. It just means they haven't considered what I wanted. Suppose I am saving the last piece of cake for myself and one of them eats it. Did they resist my wishes? Yes. Did they do so knowingly? Doubtful.

In like manner, and individual could grow up never hearing about God. As they get older, they may steal at work and drink and carouse about. Are they resisting God? Not directly, but their sin goes against God. They are acting contrary to God and are in opposition to Him.

 

[Cameron143]

Because, by believing lies and acting unjustly toward others after birth, we corrupt the innocent spirits we have as newborns .

That's one view.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I notice you stopped at Romans 9:12 just before verse 13 which clearly states that "God hated Esau".

ok ... we can take each verse separately ... but that does not change what God said before Esau was born or what was written after Esau was long dead and gone:

Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

where was it "said" unto Rebecca "The elder shall serve the younger"?


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

where is it "written" ... "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"?

Answer to Romans 9:12 ... Genesis 25 ... when Jacob and Esau were still in utero (before Esau was born "the elder shall serve the younger").

Answer to Romans 9:13 ... Malachi 1 ...

How many years between Genesis 25 and Malachi 1?

bottom line ... God never said He hated Esau before Esau was born.

do you believe that the Holy Bible is God's Word or not?

If you believe that the Holy Bible is God's Word, then you must accept the fact that God did not say He hated Esau before Esau was born.

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[reneweddaybyday]

My kids can unknowingly be going against my wishes. It just means they haven't considered what I wanted. Suppose I am saving the last piece of cake for myself and one of them eats it. Did they resist my wishes? Yes. Did they do so knowingly? Doubtful.

Your kids would be resisting if you told them you wanted the last piece.

If you did not tell them, they would be acting on their own initiative if and when they ate the last piece ... besides, I'm sure they left the dirty plate and you can lick the crumbs (i added that last part for levity).

In like manner, and individual could grow up never hearing about God. As they get older, they may steal at work and drink and carouse about. Are they resisting God? Not directly, but their sin goes against God. They are acting contrary to God and are in opposition to Him.

Romans 2:14-15

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

They act against the "work of the law written in their hearts" ... the innate moral compass which is inherent in each and every one of us.

People who are unaware of God's written law still show the requirements of that law written on their hearts because of their conscience. People who have never heard of God still possess an inherent sense of right and wrong.

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[Gideon300]

A monergist is a person who believes that God alone effects a person's salvation. They believe that the Holy Spirit is the only active agent in a person's spiritual rebirth, that the human will is considered spiritually dead and incapable of choosing God on its own until God first steps in to change the person's heart. They believe that saving faith is a gift from God to all whom the Father chooses to become part of the body of Christ. The gift is the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which the invisible God the Father enters the being of God the Son, and through which they both enter our beings to change our motivation for living and fill us with love, wisdom, and truth. They believe that all (100%) of the glory for their salvation goes to the Father and to the Son because in 1 Cor 1: 29, no flesh should glory in His presence. That means that no one in heaven can say "I did it!", or "I made the right decision!", or "I did the right things and believed the right things!".
A synergist is a person who believes that salvation involves a cooperative effort between divine grace and human freedom. They believe that God initiates salvation through grace, but the individual must freely choose to accept, respond to, or cooperate with that grace. They emphasize that human beings possess the free will to either assent to or resist God's salvific grace. They believe that they should get some of the glory for their salvation if they accept God's grace.

Wonderful. Someone else who wants to bang an "ism" drum.

 

[PaulThomson]

That's one view.

It is. And it is neither a calvinist nor a arminian view. Hence it is a third option.

 

[Cameron143]

Your kids would be resisting if you told them you wanted the last piece.

If you did not tell them, they would be acting on their own initiative if and when they ate the last piece ... besides, I'm sure they left the dirty plate and you can lick the crumbs (i added that last part for levity).





Romans 2:14-15

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

They act against the "work of the law written in their hearts" ... the innate moral compass which is inherent in each and every one of us.

People who are unaware of God's written law still show the requirements of that law written on their hearts because of their conscience. People who have never heard of God still possess an inherent sense of right and wrong.

.

Unbelievers walk in the flesh. The flesh is not subject to the law of God. Everything they do is contrary to God. They do nothing in faith so nothing they do pleases God. Whether they openly defy God or not, everything they do, they do in their own interest. Nothing is done for the glory of God. Whether this is apparent to them or not, they oppose God.

 

[Cameron143]

It is. And it is neither a calvinist nor a arminian view. Hence it is a third option.

I never claimed otherwise.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Unbelievers walk in the flesh. The flesh is not subject to the law of God. Everything they do is contrary to God. They do nothing in faith so nothing they do pleases God. Whether they openly defy God or not, everything they do, they do in their own interest. Nothing is done for the glory of God. Whether this is apparent to them or not, they oppose God.

If and when a person resists, they are resisting something initiated by God.

Your initial comment was:

Cameron143 said:​

Man initiates salvation by ceasing to resist?​

I merely pointed out that God initiates and man either resists or does not resist.

It appears you believe man's only response to God initiating is to resist ... is that what you believe?

.

 

[Suze]

True story....

For personal security we set up a password with my son. (We Know thousands of people he had never met)
In case we couldn't pick him up from school or a sitter or somewhere else we would send someone to pick him up for us and we would see and get him as soon as possible.

His job was to ask the person, "What's the password?" Regardless of school officials or other guardians (whom we don't trust....we don't like to trust anyone)

They were to reply with "Any word that rhymes with orange"

So...the day came my wife needed and conned a coworker into picking up our son from school....the school was called and told...my wife told this young intern about the password....but the girl was barely out of college...I'm not really sure she was out.... But the girl had confidence she could do this.

So she picks up my son...and he starts to go with her. But then he asks her for the password. She stalls....my son looks alarmed and stops....fixing to throw a fit and start yelling for help. She stammers and stalls and asked, "You sure you need a password?"

YES

This is when she has a total breakdown. She begins crying hysterically....and begins to blubber out, "I can't think of any word that rhymes with orange....and I had been trying on my way, the whole way over, to think of any and I keep drawing a blank."

My son pats her shoulder and tells her it will be okay.....he will go with her. She has such a look of relief on her face too.

It's much later that we explain the whole thing about the expression of "Words that rhyme with orange" to her....it's just one of those things.

U made me smile today , and it's not even 10am thank you !

 

[Cameron143]

If and when a person resists, they are resisting something initiated by God.

Your initial comment was:

Cameron143 said:​

Man initiates salvation by ceasing to resist?​

I merely pointed out that God initiates and man either resists or does not resist.

It appears you believe man's only response to God initiating is to resist ... is that what you believe?

.

Yes, if we are talking about the natural fallen man.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, the lake of fire is tragic for those who are going to spend eternity in it.

Not sure why you think that, it is all to god's ultimate glory, the deterministic god of your soteriology left them in their sin because he hates them anyway.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The early church believed in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from day one, but precise vocabulary like homoousios or Trinity wasn't formalized until later centuries. A lack of 16th- or 17th-century labels does not mean the underlying biblical concepts were absent.

I agree that people do not necessarily need to have a precise vocabulary to understand concepts. However, the "underlying concept of divine determinism" vs human "free will" was well known in the First Century by Jewish sects such as the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes who had differing views on the matter as well as by the Pagan philosophies and religions that existed at that time.

The Stoics believed every event in the universe was pre-determined and fated by the gods. In Augustine's first work, On Providence (De ordine, 386 CE) teaches this Stoic philosophy when asserting that the falling of a leaf to an exact location is predetermined by a meticulous micromanaging. Augustine himself singled out (Stoic) Providence as the one belief he never doubted throughout his diverse philosophical-religious journeys (Conf.6.5,7; cf. Ord.2.12). To account for human choices, intellectual Stoics like Augustine taught that humans were captives to bad choices because their innate choosing ability was faulty. Excuse me, but this sounds suspiciously like what Augustine later called total inability.

The final influence on Augustine was the nine years he spent as a member of the Persian Gnostic cult of Manichaeism which held that everything that happened in the universe and within the mind of humans was predetermined by one of two universal powers.

Reformed theologians acknowledge that before the 5th-century Pelagian controversy, many early writers used ambiguous or synergistic language regarding human will. Augustine articulated a profound view of original sin, total inability, and unconditional election, showing that these truths were derived directly from Paul's epistles rather than invented out of whole cloth.

There was nothing ambiguous about the language of the early writers. I know having read them myself for many years. The fact that you say this shows that you have not read or studies their writings but and have surrendered your judgment to others who interpret the word for you.
Although I believe Augustine was a true convert to the faith. The system of theology he introduced into Christianity where God micromanages every physical event as well as every movement and choice of the individual makes a mockery out of the gospel of salvation which invites all men to obtain life through repentance and faith. It makes salvation into something like a lottery which does not require any conditions since man's will has been rendered INOPERABLE by God Himself.

Reformed theology insists that final authority rests in the Word of God, not patristic consensus. Even if an early writer leaned toward a synergistic view of free will, biblical exegesis of texts in Romans and Ephesians remains the ultimate standard for truth.

What you are calling the word how you interpret the word. The Patristic writers plainly and simply opposed the idea of total divine unilateral determinism of individual destinies and supported the view that humans can make choices. That this WAS what they had been teaching since the times of the Apostles anyone can ascertain by simply reading what they wrote. What they opposed was not Biblical exegesis since they could still read in the original Koine Greek language. What they opposed was the kind of false teaching of the philosopher turned theologian Augustine of Hippo

A person can have a temporary, emotional, or superficial profession of faith, be active in the church, and yet lack genuine spiritual rebirth (citing 1 John 2:19).

By assuming your own premise you conclude that any Christian who does not believe Reformed Doctrine has not having experienced the new birth. Tell me, do you think the Reformers Martin Luther, Zwingli and John Calvin exhibited the fruit of Christ in their lives? Christ said we would know them by their fruits

 

[HeIsHere]

Because, by believing lies and acting unjustly toward others after birth, we corrupt the innocent spirits we have as newborns .

Along with the fact that original sin as defined by Augustine is not found in scripture, separation, yes, guilt no.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Really? When the apostles were preaching, do we read of them telling people that Jesus loves them? Certainly in the epistles they said things like that when addressing people who had already been saved, for example:

NKJV 1Jn 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I cannot think of one instance where they told unsaved sinners, "Jesus loves you."

a). When John 3:16 says God SO loved the world the word SO is the adverb houtōs (oὕτως) which means
thus, so, or in this way. Or (referring to what precedes or follows) so giving His only son to die for us was HOW the Father loved us.

b). This is reinforced by Paul in Romans 5:7-8
: …7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
God did not wait until we cleaned up our lives before He sacrificed Himself. He did it even while we were still in rebellion against Him.
His willingness to do this proved His love towards us.

c). Even before Paul became a believer, while he was still persecuting the members of Christ's own body, Jesus had already died to save them. Ages before Jesus was tortured and died, the Trinity had already calculated the cost determined to go through with it, even knowing that many would reject it.

d). You seem oddly reluctant to speak of God's motives for sacrificing Himself yet that is the very reason He paid such an extravagent price. Paul had no reluctance to speak of his hearts desire and his prayer to God to bring his people to salvation even though they hated him.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Along with the fact that original sin as defined by Augustine is not found in scripture, separation, yes, guilt no.

You are absolutely right about this. Augustine missed it primarily because of his abysmal ignorance of the Koine Greek language and his tendency to trust his own judgement which was contaminated by his extensive immersion in Stocism and Manichaeism which he imported like a computer virus into the scriptures.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I have no idea what I am . I do know that , many years ago , in my early twenties , I was into astrology and tarot , I genuinely did not c them as evil or occult .
One day I was walking down my local high street and noticed there was a ' Bible Exhibition ' in a church hall , I was drawn in . When I went home that day I felt as if I needed to get to know God so , within a couple of days I felt that I needed to buy a Bible and throw all my astrology / tarot stuff away , I did both those things and have never looked back .
None of that felt as if I was making a conscious decision , it was a feeling inside me , I felt I needed to do those things . What does that make me ? Apart from extremely grateful and happy that God showed me such mercy and kindness .

As a teen, I was also in the occult, including astrology and reading tarot cards. I went through a period where I began to sense malevolent presences around me. It was so strong that I could actually tell where they were. After joining a Bible Study group, I
learned that these presences were called demons and that they were evil. I began to see that I was surrounded by evil.

This is what the scriptures call the conviction. It comes from Holy Spirit. He is the one who enlightens us as to our true condition and begins drawing us to Christ. Although it may not have been a single decision, my path, like yours was a series of smaller decisions which led me ultimately to give up those things that were holding me in bondage. Like you, I also destroyed my occult paraphenalia. The Holy Spirit is the one who makes us conscious of where we are and what we need to do.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

It appears you believe man's only response to God initiating is to resist ... is that what you believe?​

Yes, if we are talking about the natural fallen man.

and I believe that natural fallen man does not always, in every circumstance, resist God each and every time He initiates.

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I believe some folks underestimate the power of God inherent in the gospel of Christ.

Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached ... receive the blessing.

Those who resist (suppress the truth in unrighteousness) do not receive the blessing.

You know I believe this ... we've discussed these things before.

hope/pray you have a blessed day, Cameron143.

.

 

[decipher]

You have misrepresented the synergist position, thereby revealing your own bias and corrupting the results.

Please expound on what a synergist position is.

Anti-calvinist and anti-arminian....

U dont have a "none of the above"

That would be silly. That is like having to choose "on or off", "moving or still", "God does it all or God doesn't do it all" concerning your salvation, "God gets all the glory because he changes the person, God doesn't get all the glory because God offers His saving grace to all, but a person can refuse because of free will. Personally, I think it is silly to imagine an all knowing and powerful God offering His saving grace to someone and being turned down. It's like when He grants repentance. You can't refuse it because when He grants it, you have it. Salvation is a state of being where you recognize that you are a sinner, repent and turn to God for forgiveness, put your trust in His plan for forgiveness of sins through His Son, and lastly, getting sealed and perfected when Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit acts as a portal through which both Father and Son enter the being indwelled and change the person's motivation for living from love of self first to love of God first and love of everyone else as one loves himself. It is through the Holy Spirit that we become part of the body of Christ and in the Family of the Father. It is through the Holy Spirit that God communicates and directs our thoughts and actions (all motivated by love). I will admit that I give all the glory for my salvation to God Almighty, the Father who through His Son made it possible. My intent is not to deceive or change the definition of a synergist, but to be truthful. If I'm in error, please correct me in defining a synergist.