Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Cameron143]

The body of man has a brain. The soul of man has a mind. And the spirit of man has a mind. You described a carnal mind, one that is focused on the flesh.

“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

So, you are right to say salvation is not something man can choose: the mind of the soul of an unredeemed man wants nothing of God. Therefore, the process of entering into the rest of God is only through death. A dead man cannot resist God. But, while the man is alive and strong he may resist Him.

So God stacked the deck, if you will.

He gave us creation to witness to the unseen aspects of Himself: things the five senses of man can discern.
The Sinai Law was given to produce desperation: an impossible standard without the provision of a redeemer.
And finally “we see Jesus” who might “taste death for everyone”.

So the gospel, to a man brought to the end of himself, to the point of despair, who can no longer resist God, is that the death he is assured to suffer has already been paid. And, now that he can no longer posture to resist God, he can receive the gospel in the spirit God gave him.. not in the mind of his soul, the mind of his spirit. His spirit did not originate with him, his parents did not give it to him, no natural line can take credit for his spirit. It is God’s and God gave it to him. So, when man ceases to resist God, the spirit of the man may respond to God’s Spirit. Man takes no credit. In fact, the credit is all the Lord’s.

This is why Paul further taught that God, in this transaction between God and God, if you will, gives life to man’s mortal bodies. Redemption covers the whole man: body, soul, and spirit.

I agree that in salvation, the entire man is redeemed. But if body, soul, and spirit need redeeming, then each facet of man must in some way be corrupted. Otherwise, one or more facets of the individual would not need redeeming. You stated earlier that when the flesh and soul are dead, they can no longer resist and the spirit is free to stop resisting and cooperate with the Spirit. However, the spirit actually needs to be quickened to relate to the Spirit.

Do you see my point? If the flesh and soul must die, the quickening of God in salvation must be the quickening of the spirit.

This is why I asked you about prevenient grace before. Those who believe in prevenient grace say God withholds the flesh...in your scenario, flesh and soul...which allows man the freedom to choose to respond to God or reject Him. This seems to me to be similar to what you are saying.

I still don't understand how you understand how an individual goes from his fallen natural estate to being saved or what role God plays in it and what role man has in it.

 

[HeIsHere]

In the Garden of Eden, man was created in the image of God Genesis 1:26-27 and was placed in a position where he was absolutely free to choose his course of action.
God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, giving man a point of decision. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" Genesis 2:17. For the command to have meaning, man had to have the capacity to either obey or disobey.

Adam and Eve exercised this freedom. Eve "saw that the tree was good for food... she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat" Genesis 3:6. This exercise of the will, though leading to sin, proves that man was not a machine or an automaton, but a free agent.

And this was before the fallen nature, they were perfect.

You will notice that this "regeneration prior to belief" is not supported by scripture and yet some assert this is the standard universal process of salvation.

 

[Freed18]

Thanks. So how does someone in this condition go from this reality to seeking God, doing good, etc?

He hears about the better life, and acts on his desire to live it.

 

[Freed18]

So...an unrighteous person who has no understanding and is not seeking God, who is unprofitable and is incapable of doing good, who tells lies and is deceitful, who curses and kills, who creates destruction and misery, who know not peace or fear God, just wake up one morning and just seek after God?

Why not ?
That seems to be the route I took.
After many years of self medicating, I actually restarted school as a way out of the life I had been living.
Even that major shift in my life wasn't enough.
Then I met a guy who spoke of life in Christ, and I was hooked.
He ended up being a poser, but I continued searching, until I met another guy who knew the truth that could make me free.

 

[HeIsHere]

He hears about the better life, and acts on his desire to live it.

"Systems" like to make the salvation complicated. Sad really.

 

[Freed18]

"Systems" like to make the salvation complicated. Sad really.

Yeah...Hear and believe, are really quite simple.

 

[Cameron143]

He hears about the better life, and acts on his desire to live it.

No he doesn't. He suppresses truth and acts contrary to God.

 

[Cameron143]

Why not ?
That seems to be the route I took.
After many years of self medicating, I actually restarted school as a way out of the life I had been living.
Even that major shift in my life wasn't enough.
Then I met a guy who spoke of life in Christ, and I was hooked.
He ended up being a poser, but I continued searching, until I met another guy who knew the truth that could make me free.

A person like that doesn't seek God. Something had to happen to you before you would seek God.

 

[Freed18]

No he doesn't. He suppresses truth and acts contrary to God.

Some do that, but I didn't.

 

[Freed18]

A person like that doesn't seek God. Something had to happen to you before you would seek God.

Yeah, life without God occurred.

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah, life without God occurred.

From a human and natural perspective, what you described is exactly what occurred. But from a spiritual and God oriented perspective, much more occurred.

Read Acts 2:23 and share with me who is responsible for Jesus being crucified.

 

[TMS]

Perfect? Gosh. Imagine that. Yet they sinned. Christ is perfect and He did not sin.

We are perfected in Him and none other. Salvation is by the will of God.

Not man. Scripture says so.

If you are given a choice to follow the wide road to destruction or the rarrow road to salvation.

Are we allowed to choose which road we walk?

 

[GWH]

Wow! What a strawman choice!

Apparently a monergist is a tulipist, who believes God loves only a few folks He forces to have "faith", and a synergist is a mfwer,
who believes God loves all of humanity and provides them the opportunity to accept His grace. IOW, God initiates; sinners may cooperate--or not, which makes them instead of God responsible for not repenting. When sinners repent, they become members of the body of Christ as his loving Holy Spirit indwells their hearts, motivating them to glorify God and reflect His omnilove to others.
Obviously, repentance is the right decision, and satisfying God's condition for salvation through accepting God's gift does not mean they earned or deserve it.

Now vote.

Bumped for voting.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Notice that knowing about God through creation and conscience leads to suppression of truth. Where in the passage does anyone not suppress the truth and go on to become saved.

The man described in Romans 3:10ff always suppresses the truth. This is the natural fallen man who is at enmity with God. And unless God alters these individual's spiritual realities, they will remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

once again, if this was true no one would be saved.

You and I both would be lost. because until we are saved, we were in our natural state..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Good scripture, however I’d say knowing at some point in their past that what they are doing is sinful, is different than knowing they are spiritually dead, in need of a savior. The very fact that they reject the truth in unrighteousness, and continue or even get worse in their sinning, tells us they never believed.

It says they know they deserve death

by defenition, by defenition then they would understand they need saved.

the problem is they love their sin, they love being their own God. and they know they have to give that up to recieve the truth about God

And remember, these dudes have rejected the Truth so much, that their consciences are seared, and now, they don’t even think their abominations are sinful!

That dude was you and I at one time my friend.

So the question always boils down to why do THEY reject Him and WE don’t?

That is a question you can ask God.

I call it pride..

The pharisee rejected God in pride

the tax collector was humbled.

the question is. How did the tax collector get humbled

Certainly not because we are smarter to understand, and certainly not because we live a more moral life than they.

Nope.. Never said this

Scripture tells us we were gifted the faith, that when we hear the Gospel, is activated, or as King Jimmy says, quickened.

The gift of faith is offered to everyone as is the gift of faith.

God did not chose you over others. and say I give you faith, they can rot in hell.

when we get right down to it. Thats in essence what you are saying

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Perfect? Gosh. Imagine that. Yet they sinned. Christ is perfect and He did not sin.

We are perfected in Him and none other. Salvation is by the will of God.

Not man. Scripture says so.

yes, they had no sin, so they were perfect.

Jesus had no sin and he was perfect also

the difference is Jesus, who was tempted in all ways. chose not to go against his father

Adam and eve did.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You will notice that this "regeneration prior to belief" is not supported by scripture and yet some assert this is the standard universal process of salvation.

God does not make a person alive while still under the penalty of sin

also. if he did, then the person has no need to get saved, he is already saved.. so it would never matter if he had faith or not..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yeah...Hear and believe, are really quite simple.

but it is not simple.. only few chose that way.. sadly

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

A person like that doesn't seek God. Something had to happen to you before you would seek God.

Yes. God draws you

and brings you to the point you either recieve him, or you continue to reject him

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Bumped for voting.

1. We do not cooperate with God, this would be us saving ourselves in doing whatever works are required.
2. The woman in the corner of a burning house who is rescued by the fireman because she chose to trust him. and recieve his help. did not cooperate with the fireman, she placed her faith in him, knowing she could not save herself
3. repenting is just a change of heart. or going from a state of unbelief to a state of faith. it is not really doing something. Those who have repented will recieve the gift God is offering to them in faith. this again is not a work. you are just recieving the gift in faith. On Christmas day when a child take a gift handed to him, he is not cooperating. He is reciving a gift in faith from someone who loves him.