The Church, and Israel and the Last Days.

[OMC]

The church.
the nation of Israel
Biblical nation of Israel
How do these all fit in the last days is a question that is one of the most abused in modern theology.
The Three Are Not the Same — and Scripture Never Confuses Them.

1. The Church (ἐκκλησία)
The Church is:
Jew + Gentile together
One new humanity (Eph 2:15)
The Body of Christ
The people of the New Covenant
Defined by Christ’s blood, not ethnicity
The Church is not a nation, not a geopolitical entity, and not an ethnic group.
It is the assembly of the redeemed, gathered under the risen Christ.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
Paul forbids collapsing them (Rom 11).

2. Modern State of Israel (1948–present)

The modern nation-state of Israel is:
a secular political entity
not a covenant nation
not the restored theocracy
not the fulfillment of the prophets
not the kingdom of God
It has historical continuity with ancient Israel, but no covenant continuity.
God did not re-establish the Sinai covenant in 1948.The prophets never said He would.
Modern Israel is political, not theological.

3. Biblical Israel (Old Covenant Israel)

Biblical Israel was:
a covenant nation under Torah
a theocracy
a priestly people
a national vessel for Messiah
a people judged, exiled, restored, judged again, and replaced by the New Covenant
Biblical Israel was destroyed as a covenant nation (Heb 8:13).
Not erased as a people — but its covenant ended.

Biblical Israel is not the modern state.
Biblical Israel is not the Church.
Biblical Israel is the Old Covenant nation that served its purpose: to bring forth Messiah.

How They Fit in the Last Days

A. The Church in the Last Days
The Church:
suffers
witnesses
endures
is purified
is gathered to Christ
reigns with Him
The Church is the central redeemed community of the last days.
Not Israel.
Not America.
Not any nation.

B. Modern Israel in the Last Days

Modern Israel plays a historical role, not a covenant role.
Scripture does not assign:
salvation to the state
covenant to the state
prophetic fulfillment to the state
kingdom authority to the state
But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).
Modern Israel is geopolitical stage, not covenant actor.

C. Biblical Israel in the Last Days

Biblical Israel’s role is eschatological, not political.

Paul says: “A partial hardening has happened… until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.” (Rom 11:25)
This is not the modern state.
This is the Jewish people, as a people, experiencing a future turning to Christ.
Not a return to Torah. Not a return to the old covenant. Not a return to the theocracy.
A return to their Messiah.
That is the biblical “Israel in the last days.”

The Church = New Covenant people of Christ (Jew + Gentile).
Modern Israel = secular nation-state, not covenant Israel.
Biblical Israel = Old Covenant nation, fulfilled and superseded by Christ.

In the last days:
The Church is the redeemed community.
Modern Israel is the geopolitical stage.
Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.
That is the clean, text-anchored distinction.

I encourage debate on any of these topics.

 

[Aussie52]

The church.
the nation of Israel
Biblical nation of Israel
How do these all fit in the last days is a question that is one of the most abused in modern theology.
The Three Are Not the Same — and Scripture Never Confuses Them.

1. The Church (ἐκκλησία)
The Church is:
Jew + Gentile together
One new humanity (Eph 2:15)
The Body of Christ
The people of the New Covenant
Defined by Christ’s blood, not ethnicity
The Church is not a nation, not a geopolitical entity, and not an ethnic group.
It is the assembly of the redeemed, gathered under the risen Christ.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
Paul forbids collapsing them (Rom 11).

2. Modern State of Israel (1948–present)

The modern nation-state of Israel is:
a secular political entity
not a covenant nation
not the restored theocracy
not the fulfillment of the prophets
not the kingdom of God
It has historical continuity with ancient Israel, but no covenant continuity.
God did not re-establish the Sinai covenant in 1948.The prophets never said He would.
Modern Israel is political, not theological.

3. Biblical Israel (Old Covenant Israel)

Biblical Israel was:
a covenant nation under Torah
a theocracy
a priestly people
a national vessel for Messiah
a people judged, exiled, restored, judged again, and replaced by the New Covenant
Biblical Israel was destroyed as a covenant nation (Heb 8:13).
Not erased as a people — but its covenant ended.

Biblical Israel is not the modern state.
Biblical Israel is not the Church.
Biblical Israel is the Old Covenant nation that served its purpose: to bring forth Messiah.

How They Fit in the Last Days

A. The Church in the Last Days
The Church:
suffers
witnesses
endures
is purified
is gathered to Christ
reigns with Him
The Church is the central redeemed community of the last days.
Not Israel.
Not America.
Not any nation.

B. Modern Israel in the Last Days

Modern Israel plays a historical role, not a covenant role.
Scripture does not assign:
salvation to the state
covenant to the state
prophetic fulfillment to the state
kingdom authority to the state
But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).
Modern Israel is geopolitical stage, not covenant actor.

C. Biblical Israel in the Last Days

Biblical Israel’s role is eschatological, not political.

Paul says: “A partial hardening has happened… until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.” (Rom 11:25)
This is not the modern state.
This is the Jewish people, as a people, experiencing a future turning to Christ.
Not a return to Torah. Not a return to the old covenant. Not a return to the theocracy.
A return to their Messiah.
That is the biblical “Israel in the last days.”

The Church = New Covenant people of Christ (Jew + Gentile).
Modern Israel = secular nation-state, not covenant Israel.
Biblical Israel = Old Covenant nation, fulfilled and superseded by Christ.

In the last days:
The Church is the redeemed community.
Modern Israel is the geopolitical stage.
Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.
That is the clean, text-anchored distinction.

I encourage debate on any of these topics.

A very good summary. The dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will come out and attack for sure.

 

[OMC]

A very good summary. The dispensationalists and Christian Zionists will come out and attack for sure.

"With much agony"

 

[SACREDWARRIOR]

The church.
the nation of Israel
Biblical nation of Israel
How do these all fit in the last days is a question that is one of the most abused in modern theology.
The Three Are Not the Same — and Scripture Never Confuses Them.

1. The Church (ἐκκλησία)
The Church is:
Jew + Gentile together
One new humanity (Eph 2:15)
The Body of Christ
The people of the New Covenant
Defined by Christ’s blood, not ethnicity
The Church is not a nation, not a geopolitical entity, and not an ethnic group.
It is the assembly of the redeemed, gathered under the risen Christ.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
Paul forbids collapsing them (Rom 11).

2. Modern State of Israel (1948–present)

The modern nation-state of Israel is:
a secular political entity
not a covenant nation
not the restored theocracy
not the fulfillment of the prophets
not the kingdom of God
It has historical continuity with ancient Israel, but no covenant continuity.
God did not re-establish the Sinai covenant in 1948.The prophets never said He would.
Modern Israel is political, not theological.

3. Biblical Israel (Old Covenant Israel)

Biblical Israel was:
a covenant nation under Torah
a theocracy
a priestly people
a national vessel for Messiah
a people judged, exiled, restored, judged again, and replaced by the New Covenant
Biblical Israel was destroyed as a covenant nation (Heb 8:13).
Not erased as a people — but its covenant ended.

Biblical Israel is not the modern state.
Biblical Israel is not the Church.
Biblical Israel is the Old Covenant nation that served its purpose: to bring forth Messiah.

How They Fit in the Last Days

A. The Church in the Last Days
The Church:
suffers
witnesses
endures
is purified
is gathered to Christ
reigns with Him
The Church is the central redeemed community of the last days.
Not Israel.
Not America.
Not any nation.

B. Modern Israel in the Last Days

Modern Israel plays a historical role, not a covenant role.
Scripture does not assign:
salvation to the state
covenant to the state
prophetic fulfillment to the state
kingdom authority to the state
But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).
Modern Israel is geopolitical stage, not covenant actor.

C. Biblical Israel in the Last Days

Biblical Israel’s role is eschatological, not political.

Paul says: “A partial hardening has happened… until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.” (Rom 11:25)
This is not the modern state.
This is the Jewish people, as a people, experiencing a future turning to Christ.
Not a return to Torah. Not a return to the old covenant. Not a return to the theocracy.
A return to their Messiah.
That is the biblical “Israel in the last days.”

The Church = New Covenant people of Christ (Jew + Gentile).
Modern Israel = secular nation-state, not covenant Israel.
Biblical Israel = Old Covenant nation, fulfilled and superseded by Christ.

In the last days:
The Church is the redeemed community.
Modern Israel is the geopolitical stage.
Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.
That is the clean, text-anchored distinction.

I encourage debate on any of thes

NAILED IT!!!!!

 

[timf]

If the church today is the "body of Christ", why would god pour his wrath on it with the tribulation?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[OMC]

If the church today is the "body of Christ", why would god pour his wrath on it with the tribulation?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Church does go through tribulation.Those are not the same thing.**

That’s the whole issue.

Wrath ≠ Tribulation

Wrath = God judging the wicked
Tribulation = the world persecuting the Church

Paul says both in the same book:

“We are destined for tribulation.” (1 Thess 3:3)
“God has not appointed us to wrath.” (1 Thess 5:9)
Your merging them. Paul separates them.

The Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath, not God’s
Revelation 12:
“The devil has great wrath.”
“He went to make war with the saints.”
That’s tribulation.

Not God judging His own body.

God’s wrath comes after the tribulation
Jesus: “Immediately after the tribulation… the Son of Man comes.” (Matt 24:29–30)
Revelation: Tribulation = chapters 6–13 Wrath = chapters 14–19
Two different phases.

The Church is present during tribulation, absent during wrath
Same pattern as Exodus:
Israel suffered oppression (tribulation)
Israel was spared the plagues (wrath)
The Church follows the same pattern.

• The Church = not appointed to wrath
• The Church = appointed to tribulation
• Tribulation = Satan’s rage
• Wrath = God’s judgment
• Scripture never merges them

 

[lrs68]

Isaiah 68:6
"Nation will be born in a day."

Isaiah 11:11–12
“Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover with His hand the second time the remnant of His people… And He will lift up a flag for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

 

[HeIsHere]

Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.

Can you support this with scripture, not with just one line.

 

[OMC]

Can you support this with scripture, not with just one line.

• Romans 11:25–27
• Zechariah 12:10
• Zechariah 13:1
• Jeremiah 31:31–34
• Hosea 3:4–5
• Ezekiel 36:24–27
• Ezekiel 37:24–25
• Matthew 23:39
• Acts 3:19–21
• Romans 11:23

 

[HeIsHere]

• Romans 11:25–27
• Zechariah 12:10
• Zechariah 13:1
• Jeremiah 31:31–34
• Hosea 3:4–5
• Ezekiel 36:24–27
• Ezekiel 37:24–25
• Matthew 23:39
• Acts 3:19–21
• Romans 11:23

Out of context is insufficient.

 

[OMC]

Out of context is insufficient.

Get to work

 

[HeIsHere]

Get to work

You made the assertion that would be your job actually.
So then I can believe then you cannot back this up with scripture using correct hermeneutics, therefore it is not a truth claim.

 

[OMC]

You made the assertion that would be your job actually.
So then I can believe then you cannot back this up with scripture using correct hermeneutics, therefore it is not a truth claim.

“Brother, truth does not bend to your convenience. If God has placed the evidence before you and you refuse to examine it, you are not protecting your faith — you are protecting your pride.
The Bereans were noble because they searched the Scriptures daily.
You cannot claim nobility while refusing the very work God commends.
If you want truth, you must pursue it. If you refuse to pursue it, do not pretend you are defending it.”

 

[Churchgoer]

The church.
the nation of Israel
Biblical nation of Israel
How do these all fit in the last days is a question that is one of the most abused in modern theology.
The Three Are Not the Same — and Scripture Never Confuses Them.

1. The Church (ἐκκλησία)
The Church is:
Jew + Gentile together
One new humanity (Eph 2:15)
The Body of Christ
The people of the New Covenant
Defined by Christ’s blood, not ethnicity
The Church is not a nation, not a geopolitical entity, and not an ethnic group.
It is the assembly of the redeemed, gathered under the risen Christ.

The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.
Paul forbids collapsing them (Rom 11).

2. Modern State of Israel (1948–present)

The modern nation-state of Israel is:
a secular political entity
not a covenant nation
not the restored theocracy
not the fulfillment of the prophets
not the kingdom of God
It has historical continuity with ancient Israel, but no covenant continuity.
God did not re-establish the Sinai covenant in 1948.The prophets never said He would.
Modern Israel is political, not theological.

3. Biblical Israel (Old Covenant Israel)

Biblical Israel was:
a covenant nation under Torah
a theocracy
a priestly people
a national vessel for Messiah
a people judged, exiled, restored, judged again, and replaced by the New Covenant
Biblical Israel was destroyed as a covenant nation (Heb 8:13).
Not erased as a people — but its covenant ended.

Biblical Israel is not the modern state.
Biblical Israel is not the Church.
Biblical Israel is the Old Covenant nation that served its purpose: to bring forth Messiah.

How They Fit in the Last Days

A. The Church in the Last Days
The Church:
suffers
witnesses
endures
is purified
is gathered to Christ
reigns with Him
The Church is the central redeemed community of the last days.
Not Israel.
Not America.
Not any nation.

B. Modern Israel in the Last Days

Modern Israel plays a historical role, not a covenant role.
Scripture does not assign:
salvation to the state
covenant to the state
prophetic fulfillment to the state
kingdom authority to the state
But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).
Modern Israel is geopolitical stage, not covenant actor.

C. Biblical Israel in the Last Days

Biblical Israel’s role is eschatological, not political.

Paul says: “A partial hardening has happened… until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.” (Rom 11:25)
This is not the modern state.
This is the Jewish people, as a people, experiencing a future turning to Christ.
Not a return to Torah. Not a return to the old covenant. Not a return to the theocracy.
A return to their Messiah.
That is the biblical “Israel in the last days.”

The Church = New Covenant people of Christ (Jew + Gentile).
Modern Israel = secular nation-state, not covenant Israel.
Biblical Israel = Old Covenant nation, fulfilled and superseded by Christ.

In the last days:
The Church is the redeemed community.
Modern Israel is the geopolitical stage.
Biblical Israel (the Jewish people) experiences a future turning to Christ — not a return to Moses.
That is the clean, text-anchored distinction.

I encourage debate on any of these topics.

I don't disagree too much with this one.

 

[WayneNSO]

Can you support this with scripture, not with just one line.

Of course we can, it is easy - you take verses already fulfilled and throw them into the future, then for icing on the cake you take the twelves tribes/ sons of Israel and call them all Judah. Then for the cherry on top, you ignore all verses that say Israel was at war with Judah and vice versa. And Voilà, you have the modern acceptable understanding of Scripture.

 

[OMC]

I don't disagree too much with this one.

What part you stuck on?

 

[Churchgoer]

What part you stuck on?

Just as some people use partial scripture as a weapon to murder, to steal, we need to be careful.

When you say ethnic jew will have a future returning to Jesus, of course, if anyone still alive. Same for all ethnics.

What do you tell ethnic jew that are dying tonight? To accept Jesus or not?

 

[WayneNSO]

Just as some people use partial scripture as a weapon to murder, to steal, we need to be careful.

When you say ethnic jew will have a future returning to Jesus, of course, if anyone still alive. Same for all ethnics.

What do you tell ethnic jew that are dying tonight? To accept Jesus or not?

I agree with that, they do not have a different path of salvation. Everyone has one path only. Christ crucified and resurrected.

 

[OMC]

Just as some people use partial scripture as a weapon to murder, to steal, we need to be careful.

When you say ethnic jew will have a future returning to Jesus, of course, if anyone still alive. Same for all ethnics.

What do you tell ethnic jew that are dying tonight? To accept Jesus or not?

You tell them the same thing you tell anyone dying tonight:Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no ethnic exception.
No prophetic loophole.
No covenant bypass.
No “wait for the national turning.”
No “you’re Jewish, so your salvation works differently.”

Scripture is blunt:
Acts 4:12 — “There is no other name under heaven… by which we must be saved.”
John 14:6 — “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Romans 10:12 — “There is no difference between Jew and Greek.”

If an ethnic Jew is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.
If an ethnic Arab is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.
If an ethnic Gentile is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.

The future turning of Israel does not replace the present call of the gospel.

Prophecy never excuses unbelief.
Prophecy never delays repentance.
Prophecy never creates a second path for any ethnicity.

Every soul — Jew or Gentile — must come to Christ now, not “in the future national turning.”

 

[Churchgoer]

You tell them the same thing you tell anyone dying tonight:Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no ethnic exception.
No prophetic loophole.
No covenant bypass.
No “wait for the national turning.”
No “you’re Jewish, so your salvation works differently.”

Scripture is blunt:
Acts 4:12 — “There is no other name under heaven… by which we must be saved.”
John 14:6 — “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Romans 10:12 — “There is no difference between Jew and Greek.”

If an ethnic Jew is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.
If an ethnic Arab is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.
If an ethnic Gentile is dying tonight, you preach Christ tonight.

The future turning of Israel does not replace the present call of the gospel.

The future turning of ethnic jew does not mean today we encourage them to reject Jesus, to murder, to plunder, to bomb, to immorality.....

Prophecy never excuses unbelief.
Prophecy never delays repentance.
Prophecy never creates a second path for any ethnicity.

Every soul — Jew or Gentile — must come to Christ now, not “in the future national turning.”