Harvesting of the Earth

[Drich]

Why change it?
Why change it or even need it changed?
It clearly says sitting on a horse in Rev 19.
It clearly says he is sitting on a cloud in Rev 14.

I did not change anything. show me what you think was changed.

BTW, it says nothing of wheat harvest in verse14.

So?

The jew is the fruit harvest.
The church is grain.

Irrelevant.

The point being made is the wheat is carried into the store house and the grapes are being crushed.

Rev 14;14 debunks a one coming theory.

14 I looked and there before me, sitting on a white cloud, was one who looked like the Son of Man. He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

No it doesnt. All 14 14 says is someone who looked like Jesus was sitting on a cloud. John does not positively identify the one sitting on a cloud.

One coming omits purpose.
The other comings are not there for doctrine.
They have purpose.

You have to go back to "purpose"

bro, if you want to have this conversation, youre going to have to explain yourself. I did not grow up in your church, I've never heard anyone ever claim that Jesus came and went 4 different times.

 

[GaryA]

They are IN HEAVEN IN REV 14.

SO, NO THEY ARE NOT MORTAL.
WHETHER OR NOT they attend the mil is not a factor.

They are in HEAVEN IN REV 14.

SMH

Revelation 14:

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

So - you think mount Sion is in [the 3rd] heaven - do you?

 

[Psalm1]

Revelation 14:

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

So - you think mount Sion is in [the 3rd] heaven - do you?

The throne is in heaven

 

[GaryA]

The throne is in heaven

But, where is mount Sion?

Revelation 14:

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, ...

John heard a voice 'from' heaven - which means that he was not in heaven.

Do you believe that John was able to see events on earth and in heaven simultaneously?

 

[Psalm1]

But, where is mount Sion?

Revelation 14:

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, ...

John heard a voice 'from' heaven - which means that he was not in heaven.

Do you believe that John was able to see events on earth and in heaven simultaneously?

Rev 14 and Hebrews 12, both point to the other my zion in heaven.
There is the earthly temple and the temple in heaven
In the garden there was the tree of life and there's also a tree of life in heaven. There is the earthly jerusalem and there's the Jerusalem in heaven.
There are horses on Earth and there are horses in heaven.

 

[Musicmaster]

So the difference from jews to non-jews is equal to male to female difference?
Wow, this is a bit stretching.
Maybe we shouldn't analyze that far.

This is a misrepresentation. Let's look at what's said and in relation to what it's said:

Galatians 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The lack of distinctions, then, END when one looks upon the RESULT of being in Christ and the availability of salvation to all who believe. Notice that the distinctions in the arena of FAITH and where that faith PLACES one, THAT is where the distinctions end.

In this world, however, AND in prophecies AND in the coming Kingdom, the distinctions are still real no matter what, for in the future, salvation will be contingent upon perseverance unto the end. It's not a matter of which one is more real than the other for right now, in this realm, they are all just as real as the other because of the law of non-contradiction. One cannot be free and a slave at the same time. One cannot be male and female at the same time. One cannot be a Greek and a Jew at the same time. In times past, Greeks could and did become Jews to obtain forgiveness and salvation, but now have direct access. The gender category distinction never had a bridge for sameness nor crossing over.

So, yes, carrying the distinctions too far beyond the context and reason does create problems when we consider that Gentiles did in times past become Jews, but because salvation has come unto the Gentiles independent of Israel, that category is the only one that allowed for change that is no long necessary, therefore the inequality that defies driving them to the point of comparative dichotomies. (If I misspoke on something here I will have to proofread it later and correct it later since time is making other demands of me at the moment...)

MM

 

[Churchgoer]

This is a misrepresentation. Let's look at what's said and in relation to what it's said:

Galatians 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The lack of distinctions, then, END when one looks upon the RESULT of being in Christ and the availability of salvation to all who believe. Notice that the distinctions in the arena of FAITH and where that faith PLACES one, THAT is where the distinctions end.

In this world, however, AND in prophecies AND in the coming Kingdom, the distinctions are still real no matter what, for in the future, salvation will be contingent upon perseverance unto the end. It's not a matter of which one is more real than the other for right now, in this realm, they are all just as real as the other because of the law of non-contradiction. One cannot be free and a slave at the same time. One cannot be male and female at the same time. One cannot be a Greek and a Jew at the same time. In times past, Greeks could and did become Jews to obtain forgiveness and salvation, but now have direct access. The gender category distinction never had a bridge for sameness nor crossing over.

So, yes, carrying the distinctions too far beyond the context and reason does create problems when we consider that Gentiles did in times past become Jews, but because salvation has come unto the Gentiles independent of Israel, that category is the only one that allowed for change that is no long necessary, therefore the inequality that defies driving them to the point of comparative dichotomies. (If I misspoke on something here I will have to proofread it later and correct it later since time is making other demands of me at the moment...)

MM

I appreciate your explanation and understand your analysis.
However, I still don't buy it. I believe there are some mystery from God that better leave it to God.

On the other hand, even from your dispensationism point of view, there is no biblical ground to support current isreal state. I have said it many times. Let God be God. God used Joseph s brother to fulfill the plan, but God don't call us to behave as Joe s brothers.

Do you get my analogy?

 

[GaryA]

Rev 14 and Hebrews 12, both point to the other my zion in heaven.
There is the earthly temple and the temple in heaven
In the garden there was the tree of life and there's also a tree of life in heaven. There is the earthly jerusalem and there's the Jerusalem in heaven.
There are horses on Earth and there are horses in heaven.

Do you suppose that there are "mountains" (outside the city) in the "heavenly" Jerusalem?

 

[Davidstarr]

Do you suppose that there are "mountains" (outside the city) in the "heavenly" Jerusalem?

Does the bible say anything about mountains outside the heavenly Jerusalem?
If you have the biblical references then why don't you post them?
Instead of asking someone's personal opinion on the matter so you can find a way to argue about it....

 

[GaryA]

Does the bible say anything about mountains outside the heavenly Jerusalem?

Not that I am aware of...

If you have the biblical references then why don't you post them?

Needless to say - I have no such references.

Instead of asking someone's personal opinion on the matter so you can find a way to argue about it....

Do not wish to argue - only want @Psalm1 to explain his reasoning behind believing that the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 (in the context of that verse/chapter) are resurrected "glorifed" (body) saints rather than mortal saints on the earth.

 

[Musicmaster]

I appreciate your explanation and understand your analysis.
However, I still don't buy it. I believe there are some mystery from God that better leave it to God.

On the other hand, even from your dispensationism point of view, there is no biblical ground to support current isreal state. I have said it many times. Let God be God. God used Joseph s brother to fulfill the plan, but God don't call us to behave as Joe s brothers.

Do you get my analogy?

To say there's no support for Israel having been ,and still is, in a fallen state is a denial of scripture spoken directly by Christ Himself and that which He inspired to be written by other of those with whom He had directly conversed.

MM

 

[Churchgoer]

To say there's no support for Israel having been ,and still is, in a fallen state is a denial of scripture spoken directly by Christ Himself and that which He inspired to be written by other of those with whom He had directly conversed.

MM

where is the scripture backing?
For Christians to support secular Israel state.

 

[Omegatime]

where is the scripture backing?
For Christians to support secular Israel state.

“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you

 

[Churchgoer]

“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you

This is God saying to Abraham. Not to a secular state, who is rejecting God. Can you please read the scripture context? Educated man?

True blessing is to support them accepting Jesus, and stay far away from murdering, stealing, sexual immorality....

True cursing is encouraging them to reject Jesus, to murder, to steal.

If you want to curse them, go ahead.

But my Lord Jesus do not allow me to do that. Actually my Lord don't allow me to do that to anyone.

 

[Davidstarr]

“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you

There were many conditional promises given to Abraham and his descendants provided they remain obedient to His will.
The promises would not apply if they rejected Him.....

There are many references for this. Do you need some of them?
Hos 4:6 is a good start for you.

 

[Churchgoer]

There were many conditional promises given to Abraham and his descendants provided they remain obedient to His will.
The promises would not apply if they rejected Him.....

There are many references for this. Do you need some of them?
Hos 4:6 is a good start for you.

They refuse to read the context.
And they refuse to acknowledge exactly what is blessing.

When a son steals something, should parents correct him? Or should parents encourage the stealing?

 

[Davidstarr]

They refuse to read the context.
And they refuse to acknowledge exactly what is blessing.

When a son steals something, should parents correct him? Or should parents encourage the stealing?

Context again.
It's war-time. Both parents are old and decrepit. Son steals a loaf of bread to keep them alive for 1 more day. Hmmm tough call....

But I understand what you mean.

Should a judge let a convicted child molester go free just because he claims to be Christian?
That won't usually happen. Well, unless it's a Catholic priest......

But parents should teach their children right from wrong. If they don't society, law enforcement, then a judge WILL.

But "conditional" promises usually implies the person has the ability to make an informed choice.
Choose God's and all the blessings He can give will be given when needed.
Choose against God and don't expect any blessings from Him whatsoever. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[Musicmaster]

where is the scripture backing?
For Christians to support secular Israel state.

Now you're asking a split in questioning. Sticking to your original question about the fall of Israel, Jesus predicted that in a parable here:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

A fig tree has always been a symbol of Israel throughout the scriptures, with fruit being faith rightly placed. What did Jesus want Israel to believe, that He was/is Messiah. How long did Jesus strive with Israel? Three years... After His crucifixion, He was prepared to cut down Israel, but the Father said to let it go for one more year after He has done His work through the twelve, and what happened one year after the ascension of Christ? Stephen was stoned after issuing his scathing indictment against Israel for our refusal to accept Christ Jesus as Messiah and thus our continued rejection of Him as a nation of His priests, so Stephen then saw Him STANDING at the right Hand of the Father rather than sitting as He had been doing previously.

So, we as a nation were cut down, which brought down that middle wall of partition and with salvation having come unto the Gentiles who, in times past, were without God in the world, without Christ, outside the commonwealth of Israel, and thus without hope, but with the fall of Israel, salvation THEN became accessible directly to the Gentiles that had never been available to them before apart from joining with Israel to become a Jew, affirmed by Jesus when calling Gentiles "dogs."

As to your question about support for "secular Israel," where do you see any declared end for support and love for Israel among Gentiles?

Numbers 24:9
He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

So, do you curse us or do you desire blessings upon us? What Gentile is himself without sin even among believers? Given that most Gentiles are Christ-rejectors, should we of Israel therefore curse all of you? Have you stopped paying taxes to your government because of its mistakes in the use of military might at various points throughout its hitory?

Being fallen isn't stated anywhere in scripture of which I am aware whereby we of Israel should cease receiving your prayerful support and blessing, for the Lord is not at all finished with us. If you're a follower of replacement theology, then that's another matter entirely, which would lead me to leave that between you and the Lord for Him to deal with you about that.

MM

 

[Psalm1]

This is God saying to Abraham. Not to a secular state, who is rejecting God. Can you please read the scripture context? Educated man?

True blessing is to support them accepting Jesus, and stay far away from murdering, stealing, sexual immorality....

True cursing is encouraging them to reject Jesus, to murder, to steal.

If you want to curse them, go ahead.

But my Lord Jesus do not allow me to do that. Actually my Lord don't allow me to do that to anyone.

Read Paul's letters.
He travail over them.
He called himself both a Christian and a Jew.
Both heritages side by side.
In Romans 9-11 Paul prophesied the covenant Jews to be grafted back in.

BTW, they were a fallen state way before tge cross.

Fallen Christians are still covenant.
Read the prodigal.
He was fallen and still family.

Same as the Jew.
(Fallen, but still covenant.)

 

[Churchgoer]

Now you're asking a split in questioning. Sticking to your original question about the fall of Israel, Jesus predicted that in a parable here:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

A fig tree has always been a symbol of Israel throughout the scriptures, with fruit being faith rightly placed. What did Jesus want Israel to believe, that He was/is Messiah. How long did Jesus strive with Israel? Three years... After His crucifixion, He was prepared to cut down Israel, but the Father said to let it go for one more year after He has done His work through the twelve, and what happened one year after the ascension of Christ? Stephen was stoned after issuing his scathing indictment against Israel for our refusal to accept Christ Jesus as Messiah and thus our continued rejection of Him as a nation of His priests, so Stephen then saw Him STANDING at the right Hand of the Father rather than sitting as He had been doing previously.

So, we as a nation were cut down, which brought down that middle wall of partition and with salvation having come unto the Gentiles who, in times past, were without God in the world, without Christ, outside the commonwealth of Israel, and thus without hope, but with the fall of Israel, salvation THEN became accessible directly to the Gentiles that had never been available to them before apart from joining with Israel to become a Jew, affirmed by Jesus when calling Gentiles "dogs."

Jesus also call jew leaders other names too. Just fyi. Take it into context.

As to your question about support for "secular Israel," where do you see any declared end for support and love for Israel among Gentiles?

Support and love, must be within Jesus teaching.
If one gives a confused child access to sex exchange, it is curse, not supporting.
Same for secular Israel state, if one gives it weapon to murder and bomb, it is entering into crime together with them. In psalm, God tells people to stay away from evil schemes.

Numbers 24:9
He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

So, do you curse us or do you desire blessings upon us?

Only true blessings from. GOD. WE often pray for Israel people to turn to God.

What Gentile is himself without sin even among believers?

True, we iron sharpen iron. If it is good, we encourage, if it is bad, we correct. As I said, not to give a confused child or adult access to sexual immorality.

Given that most Gentiles are Christ-rejectors, should we of Israel therefore curse all of you?

We of Israel? Secular? If secular, go by your local civil law.
Should really turn to Jesus. That's the key.

Have you stopped paying taxes to your government because of its mistakes in the use of military might at various points throughout its hitory?

We voice our objection to evil acts. Tax as Peter did, Jesus did.

Being fallen isn't stated anywhere in scripture of which I am aware whereby we of Israel should cease receiving your prayerful support and blessing,

Again, agree blessings support, prayers, within God. Not outside of God.

for the Lord is not at all finished with us.

No one is finished until we die, all have chance to turn to God.

If you're a follower of replacement theology, then that's another matter entirely, which would lead me to leave that between you and the Lord for Him to deal with you about that.

MM

I believe Jesus the fulfillment.
Ethnicity never saved anyone, not even in OT.
Only Jesus blood saves, even in OT.
Jesus never change.