The Church, and Israel and the Last Days.

[OMC]

Everybody sees suddenness.
We all see it.

Everybody sees the second coming is after the trib, or wrath, or whatever.
We all see it.
....so both of those dynamics are not going anywhere.

I don't see, or say that Jesus is teaching a rapture of wicked people
Your doctrine however DOES TEACH THAT AND YOU PROCLAIM IT.
The "One taken", according to YOUR DOCTRINE, is some made up "wicked person taken before the flood".
You literally made it up.

You say “Everybody sees suddenness… everybody sees the second coming is after the trib… we all see it.” Good — that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. Suddenness is real. Post‑trib return is real. But then you accuse my reading of teaching “a rapture of wicked people,” when the text itself defines who the “taken” are in the Noah and Lot analogies — and it’s not the righteous.
In Noah’s day, the ones taken were the wicked swept away by judgment (Gen 7:23). In Lot’s day, the ones taken were the destroyed in the fire (Luke 17:29). Jesus says “so shall it be” at His coming — the pattern carries over. I didn’t “make up” wicked people being taken; Jesus Himself ties the meaning of “taken” to judgment in both analogies.
The righteous are the ones left alive and preserved. You can’t flip the meaning of “taken” in the analogies without reversing Jesus’ own logic. Suddenness stays. Post‑trib stays. But the pattern stays too — and the pattern is judgment falling on the ones taken.

 

[Psalm1]

You say “Everybody sees suddenness… everybody sees the second coming is after the trib… we all see it.” Good — that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. Suddenness is real. Post‑trib return is real. But then you accuse my reading of teaching “a rapture of wicked people,” when the text itself defines who the “taken” are in the Noah and Lot analogies — and it’s not the righteous.
In Noah’s day, the ones taken were the wicked swept away by judgment (Gen 7:23). In Lot’s day, the ones taken were the destroyed in the fire (Luke 17:29). Jesus says “so shall it be” at His coming — the pattern carries over. I didn’t “make up” wicked people being taken; Jesus Himself ties the meaning of “taken” to judgment in both analogies.
The righteous are the ones left alive and preserved. You can’t flip the meaning of “taken” in the analogies without reversing Jesus’ own logic. Suddenness stays. Post‑trib stays. But the pattern stays too — and the pattern is judgment falling on the ones taken.

You just confirmed your model of "wicked people raptured pretrib"

And.. your model of; "half the world is saved, and half wicked in your wicked people pretrib rapture."

No joke.
See where a poorly thought out doctrine system leads???
Into the mess you are making.
That is where.

...and attaching Jesus to it.
Sad

 

[OMC]

You just confirmed your model of "wicked people raptured pretrib"

And.. your model of; "half the world is saved, and half wicked in your wicked people pretrib rapture."

No joke.
See where a poorly thought out doctrine system leads???
Into the mess you are making.
That is where.

...and attaching Jesus to it.
Sad

You’re not following Jesus’ argument; you’re reacting to a caricature of it. When I say the ones “taken” in the Noah and Lot analogies are the wicked, I’m not inventing a pretrib rapture of wicked people—I’m simply repeating what the text itself shows. Read it!
In Noah’s day, the ones taken were the wicked swept away in judgment (Genesis 7:23).
In Lot’s day, the ones taken were the wicked destroyed by fire (Luke 17:29).
Jesus says, “so shall it be” at His coming.
That means the pattern carries over, not the props.

You’re the one flipping the meaning of “taken,” not me.
Jesus ties “taken” to judgment in both analogies.
The righteous are the ones left alive and preserved.
That’s the pattern. Suddenness stays.
Post‑trib stays.
And the judgment-pattern stays.
Nothing in that creates a “wicked people pretrib rapture,” and nothing in the text implies “half the world is saved and half wicked.”
That accusation is your system talking, not Scripture.
When you force your model onto Jesus’ words, you end up attacking Him for the very logic He Himself uses.
That’s the mess—not the text, not the pattern, and not the timing Jesus gives.

 

[Psalm1]

You’re not following Jesus’ argument; you’re reacting to a caricature of it. When I say the ones “taken” in the Noah and Lot analogies are the wicked, I’m not inventing a pretrib rapture of wicked people—I’m simply repeating what the text itself shows. Read it!
In Noah’s day, the ones taken were the wicked swept away in judgment (Genesis 7:23).
In Lot’s day, the ones taken were the wicked destroyed by fire (Luke 17:29).
Jesus says, “so shall it be” at His coming.
That means the pattern carries over, not the props.

You’re the one flipping the meaning of “taken,” not me.
Jesus ties “taken” to judgment in both analogies.
The righteous are the ones left alive and preserved.
That’s the pattern. Suddenness stays.
Post‑trib stays.
And the judgment-pattern stays.
Nothing in that creates a “wicked people pretrib rapture,” and nothing in the text implies “half the world is saved and half wicked.”
That accusation is your system talking, not Scripture.
When you force your model onto Jesus’ words, you end up attacking Him for the very logic He Himself uses.
That’s the mess—not the text, not the pattern, and not the timing Jesus gives.

Lol
You are doing exactly that.
Mat 24
40;Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41;Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42;Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(Half are taken....Fact..but you say Jesus is confused.)


The SETTING IS BEFORE THE FLOOD.....
AHEM, Pretrib.
Fact, however, You say Jesus is confused.

With amazing precision Jesus says;
"38 ;For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark"

( BEFORE the flood. Normal life, Everyday life, planning for the future, AND NOAH ENTERS THE ARK,...HELLO....IN THAT SETTING....BY JESUS....HALF ARE TAKEN pretrib.)

You claim that is a "wicked people taken".
Now don't lie to us, because you said it CLEARLY.

YOU, INVENTED A WICKED PEOPLE RAPTURE PRETRIB, from those verses.
Lol
Not only that, BUT YOU ALSO INVENTED THE BIZARE DYNAMIC THAT HALF THE WORLD IS SAVED, AND HALF WICKED, (from those verses.)

Your doctrine has you doing all that.

You need to completely start over.
Go back , re-read with comprehension, and start agreeing with scripture.
And when you do that, when you re-read it for comprehension, understand Jesus is using an analogy.
And in that analogy, He is, with precision, describing a preflood/ pre-tribulation gathering.
AHEM, A rapture of half of a group of people.
So what you need to do is understand
Which components Jesus is actually using in the analogy that apply to the point that he is making.
For example, we know that in the rapture, which is a gathering of people from the Earth, that there is no water, no flood, no boat, no torrential rain.
Noah will not be there.
Lot will not be there.
thousands of animals will not be there
And it won't be only eight people that enter heaven.
PLUS THE ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION IS NOT MASSACRED.

To try and say, that All that, non applicable material, is in Jesus message, would be some attempt at a bizarre defense of false doctrine.

So go back and realize what is reality in Jesus analogy.

Rethink your message of a wicked people rapture pretrib.
Flat out bizarre.

 

[Goldwing]

But Scripture does foresee conflict centered in Jerusalem, and nations gathering around it (Zech 12–14).

Your misunderstanding as I understand it, is you have taken Zech. 12-14, which is a Judaic prophecy, and have applied it to the world at large in the last days. Please consider the following:

“The covenant between God and the ancient nation of Israel con-
tained many promises and prophecies. Contrary to the beliefs of
many people today, these promises and prophecies were condition-
al. God’s covenant with Israel was contingent on Israel’s behavior.
Bible history shows that Israel repeatedly rebelled against
God and broke His covenant. This behavior explains why God
destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. Many people
believe that God will fulfill all of the prophecies and promises that
He gave to ancient Israel, but a careful study of the unconditional
nature of the apocalyptic prophecies of Daniel and Revelation proves
that the conditional promises made to ancient Israel have been
abolished and they cannot be fulfilled! God’s covenant with ancient
Israel ended with the expiration of the seventy weeks in A.D. 33.”
(Jesus Final Victory, by Larry Wilson, pg. 23)

 

[OMC]

Lol
You are doing exactly that.
Mat 24
40;Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41;Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42;Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(Half are taken....Fact..but you say Jesus is confused.)


The SETTING IS BEFORE THE FLOOD.....
AHEM, Pretrib.
Fact, however, You say Jesus is confused.

With amazing precision Jesus says;
"38 ;For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark"

( BEFORE the flood. Normal life, Everyday life, planning for the future, AND NOAH ENTERS THE ARK,...HELLO....IN THAT SETTING....BY JESUS....HALF ARE TAKEN pretrib.)

You claim that is a "wicked people taken".
Now don't lie to us, because you said it CLEARLY.

YOU, INVENTED A WICKED PEOPLE RAPTURE PRETRIB, from those verses.
Lol
Not only that, BUT YOU ALSO INVENTED THE BIZARE DYNAMIC THAT HALF THE WORLD IS SAVED, AND HALF WICKED, (from those verses.)

Your doctrine has you doing all that.

You need to completely start over.
Go back , re-read with comprehension, and start agreeing with scripture.
And when you do that, when you re-read it for comprehension, understand Jesus is using an analogy.
And in that analogy, He is, with precision, describing a preflood/ pre-tribulation gathering.
AHEM, A rapture of half of a group of people.
So what you need to do is understand
Which components Jesus is actually using in the analogy that apply to the point that he is making.
For example, we know that in the rapture, which is a gathering of people from the Earth, that there is no water, no flood, no boat, no torrential rain.
Noah will not be there.
Lot will not be there.
thousands of animals will not be there
And it won't be only eight people that enter heaven.
PLUS THE ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION IS NOT MASSACRED.

To try and say, that All that, non applicable material, is in Jesus message, would be some attempt at a bizarre defense of false doctrine.

So go back and realize what is reality in Jesus analogy.

Rethink your message of a wicked people rapture pretrib.
Flat out bizarre.

You’re overlooking what Jesus clearly points out: the pattern of judgment, not a pre-tribulation rapture.
In Matthew 24, the “days of Noah” describe life going on as usual until Noah entered the ark, and then judgment came—not a secret rescue of half the world.
In Genesis 7:23, those “taken” are the wicked swept away; in Luke 17:29, those “taken” are the wicked destroyed by fire.
Jesus says, “so shall it be” when the Son of Man is revealed, meaning the judgment pattern continues, without the specific details of water, ark, animals, or flood mechanics.
When He says “one will be taken, and the other left,” in the context of sudden judgment, He’s describing the separation of the judged from the spared, just like in the days of Noah and Lot.
You interpret “taken” as “raptured” because your framework requires it, but Jesus has already shown “taken” means removed in judgment, and “left” means left alive. This isn’t me inventing a “wicked people rapture”—it’s you forcing “rapture” into a passage about judgment and attributing that to Jesus.

 

[NightTwister]

Premil wars are the best kind

 

[Psalm1]

You’re overlooking what Jesus clearly points out: the pattern of judgment, not a pre-tribulation rapture.
In Matthew 24, the “days of Noah” describe life going on as usual until Noah entered the ark, and then judgment came—not a secret rescue of half the world.
In Genesis 7:23, those “taken” are the wicked swept away; in Luke 17:29, those “taken” are the wicked destroyed by fire.
Jesus says, “so shall it be” when the Son of Man is revealed, meaning the judgment pattern continues, without the specific details of water, ark, animals, or flood mechanics.
When He says “one will be taken, and the other left,” in the context of sudden judgment, He’s describing the separation of the judged from the spared, just like in the days of Noah and Lot.
You interpret “taken” as “raptured” because your framework requires it, but Jesus has already shown “taken” means removed in judgment, and “left” means left alive. This isn’t me inventing a “wicked people rapture”—it’s you forcing “rapture” into a passage about judgment and attributing that to Jesus.

Again re read it!
1) BEFORE THE FLOOD...you left it out. You left out the timing
2) the SETTING is pretrib.Jesus with precision tells us the setting is pretrib.
Buying, selling, normal life, everyday life, planning for the future.
3) IN THAT SETTING AND TIMING THERE IS A GATHERING OF HALF OF A GROUP.

You do not incorporate THE MAJOR COMPONENTS, of setting and timing, and who is taken.
You purposefully OMIT THEM.
Even when shown, you backpeddle into generalities.

When was NOAH GATHERED?
POST FLOOD OR PREFLOOD?
WHEN WAS LOT GATHERED AND REMOVED?
Was it post judgement in ashes, and in the destroyed city, or BEFORE IT BURNED?

Jesus gave you 2 pretrib gatherings.
2 of them.

Then Jesus gave you a vivid gathering of half a group BEFORE THE FLOOD.
BEFORE THE FLOOD HALF ARE TAKEN
Jesus said it, not me.

You still try to over generalize and proclaim a wicked person rapture pretrib.
Then make an even worse mistake, of trying to shoehorn in, a bizarre dynamic of, "half the world is born again and half unsaved."
It becomes clear that the group from which half are taken is a sub group. Not earths population.
Your claim of half the earth being wicked and half saved is ludicrous.

Your doctrine painted yourself into a corner friend.

No way is what you are asserting possible.
Way way off.

 

[OMC]

Again re read it!
1) BEFORE THE FLOOD...you left it out. You left out the timing
2) the SETTING is pretrib.Jesus with precision tells us the setting is pretrib.
Buying, selling, normal life, everyday life, planning for the future.
3) IN THAT SETTING AND TIMING THERE IS A GATHERING OF HALF OF A GROUP.

You do not incorporate THE MAJOR COMPONENTS, of setting and timing, and who is taken.
You purposefully OMIT THEM.
Even when shown, you backpeddle into generalities.

When was NOAH GATHERED?
POST FLOOD OR PREFLOOD?
WHEN WAS LOT GATHERED AND REMOVED?
Was it post judgement in ashes, and in the destroyed city, or BEFORE IT BURNED?

Jesus gave you 2 pretrib gatherings.
2 of them.

Then Jesus gave you a vivid gathering of half a group BEFORE THE FLOOD.
BEFORE THE FLOOD HALF ARE TAKEN
Jesus said it, not me.

You still try to over generalize and proclaim a wicked person rapture pretrib.
Then make an even worse mistake, of trying to shoehorn in, a bizarre dynamic of, "half the world is born again and half unsaved."
It becomes clear that the group from which half are taken is a sub group. Not earths population.
Your claim of half the earth being wicked and half saved is ludicrous.

Your doctrine painted yourself into a corner friend.

No way is what you are asserting possible.
Way way off.

According to Scripture, the idea that Matthew 24 and Luke 17 refer to a pre‑tribulation “gathering of half a group” instead of a judgment pattern is exactly what Jesus challenges.
He clearly compares His coming to “the days of Noah” and “the days of Lot” (Matthew 24:37–39; Luke 17:26–30), where the timing described—“before the flood” or “before it burned”—marks the moment judgment falls on the wicked while the righteous are preserved, not a secret removal of part of a mixed group.
In both Noah’s and Lot’s cases, those “taken” are swept away in judgment (Genesis 7:23; Luke 17:29), and those “left” are spared. Reading “rapture” into “one taken, and the other left” imposes a framework on a passage where Jesus is plainly describing sudden separation by judgment, not a pre‑tribulation rescue of the Church.

 

[Psalm1]

You’re not following Jesus’ argument; you’re reacting to a caricature of it. When I say the ones “taken” in the Noah and Lot analogies are the wicked, I’m not inventing a pretrib rapture of wicked people—I’m simply repeating what the text itself shows. Read it!
In Noah’s day, the ones taken were the wicked swept away in judgment (Genesis 7:23).
In Lot’s day, the ones taken were the wicked destroyed by fire (Luke 17:29).
Jesus says, “so shall it be” at His coming.
That means the pattern carries over, not the props.

You’re the one flipping the meaning of “taken,” not me.
Jesus ties “taken” to judgment in both analogies.
The righteous are the ones left alive and preserved.
That’s the pattern. Suddenness stays.
Post‑trib stays.
And the judgment-pattern stays.
Nothing in that creates a “wicked people pretrib rapture,” and nothing in the text implies “half the world is saved and half wicked.”
That accusation is your system talking, not Scripture.
When you force your model onto Jesus’ words, you end up attacking Him for the very logic He Himself uses.
That’s the mess—not the text, not the pattern, and not the timing Jesus gives.

Who was beating on the door of the ark?
Those gathered into it preflood/ pretrib?

Left behind, and not rescued, is a very bad place in a flood. Or and deadly tribulation.

Jesus said,
" Because you have kept the word of my testimony. How will also keep you from a trial? How do you spell about to come upon the whole earth"

Jesus said,
" Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of man."

Lot removed pretrib
NOAH sealed into the ark pretrib
The baby Jesus removed and gathered into Egypt pretrib.

Those left behind during the trib martyred...murdered.
All that refuse the mark die.
Every man woman and child that are not in the book, receive the mark of the Beast.
The antichrist is given power over the saints, and murders them. They are seen in heaven as an innumerable number.
The Bible declares that they came out of the great tribulation, and had dirty robes, But they washed them in the blood of the lamb

Over and over the ones left behind are not a good thing.

Again the bible is opposite your doctrine.

 

[Psalm1]

According to Scripture, the idea that Matthew 24 and Luke 17 refer to a pre‑tribulation “gathering of half a group” instead of a judgment pattern is exactly what Jesus challenges.
He clearly compares His coming to “the days of Noah” and “the days of Lot” (Matthew 24:37–39; Luke 17:26–30), where the timing described—“before the flood” or “before it burned”—marks the moment judgment falls on the wicked while the righteous are preserved, not a secret removal of part of a mixed group.
In both Noah’s and Lot’s cases, those “taken” are swept away in judgment (Genesis 7:23; Luke 17:29), and those “left” are spared. Reading “rapture” into “one taken, and the other left” imposes a framework on a passage where Jesus is plainly describing sudden separation by judgment, not a pre‑tribulation rescue of the Church.

Oh really?
Noah is left behind and not removed?
Again who is banging and clawing at the door of the ark?
Ahem, those left behind.
There is nothing of the earths population removed preflood and judged....absolutely nothing.
You are talking pure foolishness.

Lot is not removed prejudgement?
Who is being burned alive DURING THE JUDGEMENTENT?
Who is left behind?
Ahem...THE WICKED.

Noah was taken over a mile into the sky via the flood.
Noah RETURNED TO EARTH postflood, postrib.
DURING the flood, we see Noah in the heavens, DURING THE ENTIRE TRIB.

Your deal is so bizarre to think Lot stays in the city, and the citizens of Sodom are removed to some location.

See what happens when you willy nilly start "interpreting" scripture and depart from what Jesus said ?

 

[OMC]

Who was beating on the door of the ark?
Those gathered into it preflood/ pretrib?

Left behind, and not rescued, is a very bad place in a flood. Or and deadly tribulation.

Jesus said,
" Because you have kept the word of my testimony. How will also keep you from a trial? How do you spell about to come upon the whole earth"

Jesus said,
" Pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of man."

Lot removed pretrib
NOAH sealed into the ark pretrib
The baby Jesus removed and gathered into Egypt pretrib.

Those left behind during the trib martyred...murdered.
All that refuse the mark die.
Every man woman and child that are not in the book, receive the mark of the Beast.
The antichrist is given power over the saints, and murders them. They are seen in heaven as an innumerable number.
The Bible declares that they came out of the great tribulation, and had dirty robes, But they washed them in the blood of the lamb

Over and over the ones left behind are not a good thing.

Again the bible is opposite your doctrine.

According to Scripture, your claim that Noah, Lot, the flight to Egypt, and Revelation 3:10 prove a pre‑tribulation removal of the righteous ignores the fact that Jesus explicitly interprets the Noah‑Lot pattern as judgment falling on the wicked (“the flood came and took them all away,” Matthew 24:39; “it rained fire… and destroyed them all,” Luke 17:29), that in both cases the ones taken are the judged and the ones left are the spared, and that the Bible consistently teaches that final separation belongs to Christ at His coming (Matthew 13:41–43), not to a pre‑tribulation extraction, meaning your insistence that “left behind is always bad” reverses Jesus’ own explanation of who is removed in judgment and who is preserved

 

[OMC]

Oh really?
Noah is left behind and not removed?
Again who is banging and clawing at the door of the ark?
Ahem, those left behind.
There is nothing of the earths population removed preflood and judged....absolutely nothing.
You are talking pure foolishness.

Lot is not removed prejudgement?
Who is being burned alive DURING THE JUDGEMENTENT?
Who is left behind?
Ahem...THE WICKED.

Noah was taken over a mile into the sky via the flood.
Noah RETURNED TO EARTH postflood, postrib.
DURING the flood, we see Noah in the heavens, DURING THE ENTIRE TRIB.

Your deal is so bizarre to think Lot stays in the city, and the citizens of Sodom are removed to some location.

See what happens when you willy nilly start "interpreting" scripture and depart from what Jesus said ?

According to Scripture, the claim that “Noah was removed” and that “those left behind were the wicked” is the very reversal Jesus corrects, because He explicitly says the ones taken in Noah’s day were those the flood “took them all away” (Matthew 24:39), while Noah—sealed safely in the ark—remained and was preserved, meaning your attempt to turn preservation into “left behind doom” contradicts Jesus’ own interpretation of who is removed in judgment and who is kept safe.

 

[OMC]

Your misunderstanding as I understand it, is you have taken Zech. 12-14, which is a Judaic prophecy, and have applied it to the world at large in the last days. Please consider the following:

“The covenant between God and the ancient nation of Israel con-
tained many promises and prophecies. Contrary to the beliefs of
many people today, these promises and prophecies were condition-
al. God’s covenant with Israel was contingent on Israel’s behavior.
Bible history shows that Israel repeatedly rebelled against
God and broke His covenant. This behavior explains why God
destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. Many people
believe that God will fulfill all of the prophecies and promises that
He gave to ancient Israel, but a careful study of the unconditional
nature of the apocalyptic prophecies of Daniel and Revelation proves
that the conditional promises made to ancient Israel have been
abolished and they cannot be fulfilled! God’s covenant with ancient
Israel ended with the expiration of the seventy weeks in A.D. 33.”
(Jesus Final Victory, by Larry Wilson, pg. 23)

I apologize that I missed this. I shall respond, better late than never.
Your misunderstanding is that you treat Zechariah 12–14 as “abolished” because Israel broke the covenant, but Scripture itself never abolishes those chapters; the conditional covenant of Deuteronomy explains Israel’s discipline, yet the prophets repeatedly declare post‑discipline restoration that is not conditional—God says He will “pour upon the house of David… the spirit of grace” (Zech. 12:10), He will “go forth and fight against those nations” (14:3), and He will “be king over all the earth” (14:9), none of which depend on Israel’s prior obedience but on God’s own oath, and your quotation from Wilson simply asserts that all national promises ended in A.D. 33 without showing a single text where God cancels Zechariah’s future events, meaning your argument rests on a theological system, not on the prophets’ actual words, which consistently place these judgments and deliverances in the last days and on the world stage, not in a closed, first‑century Judaic window.

 

[God-fearing]

Could you please explain what the tribulation is as you see it is. In short....
I believe that it is man made as mankind furthers its self from God causing more divisions that lead to chaos.
God refraining his blessings and protective hedge that many take for granted or simply dont believe.
I see the anti-Christ taking advantage of the chaos promising answers and putting forth his agenda.

 

[OMC]

Could you please explain what the tribulation is as you see it is. In short....
I believe that it is man made as mankind furthers its self from God causing more divisions that lead to chaos.
God refraining his blessings and protective hedge that many take for granted or simply dont believe.
I see the anti-Christ taking advantage of the chaos promising answers and putting forth his agenda

The tribulation, as Scripture defines it, is not a man‑made social unraveling but the concentrated period of Satan’s wrath against the saints, the Beast’s persecution, and the world’s hatred of God’s people, because Jesus Himself said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation,” and John said he was already in “the tribulation” with the churches, meaning tribulation is what the world does to believers, not what God does to mankind; and while human sin certainly produces chaos, division, and moral collapse, the biblical tribulation is specifically the time when God allows the restrainer to step aside, Satan unleashes his fury, the Beast rises to power, deception intensifies, and believers are pressured, hunted, and martyred, not because God withdraws His hedge but because the enemy is permitted to wage war, and the Antichrist does not merely “take advantage of chaos” but is empowered by the dragon to deceive the nations, demand worship, and enforce the mark, so the tribulation is not humanity drifting from God but the final global assault on the saints before Christ returns

 

[Psalm1]

According to Scripture, your claim that Noah, Lot, the flight to Egypt, and Revelation 3:10 prove a pre‑tribulation removal of the righteous ignores the fact that Jesus explicitly interprets the Noah‑Lot pattern as judgment falling on the wicked (“the flood came and took them all away,” Matthew 24:39; “it rained fire… and destroyed them all,” Luke 17:29), that in both cases the ones taken are the judged and the ones left are the spared, and that the Bible consistently teaches that final separation belongs to Christ at His coming (Matthew 13:41–43), not to a pre‑tribulation extraction, meaning your insistence that “left behind is always bad” reverses Jesus’ own explanation of who is removed in judgment and who is preserved

Nope.
Again, by ignoring WHAT JESUS SAID, you are trying to prove your point by saying JESUS did NOT have a point.

You are definitely not serious about exegesis.
Your fabricated pretrib rapture of the wicked, by necessity, declares that HALF the world righteous, and HALF born again.
Utterly impossible.

You definately painted yourself into a corner.

 

[Psalm1]

According to Scripture, the claim that “Noah was removed” and that “those left behind were the wicked” is the very reversal Jesus corrects, because He explicitly says the ones taken in Noah’s day were those the flood “took them all away” (Matthew 24:39), while Noah—sealed safely in the ark—remained and was preserved, meaning your attempt to turn preservation into “left behind doom” contradicts Jesus’ own interpretation of who is removed in judgment and who is kept safe.

QUOTE
"According to Scripture, the claim that “Noah was removed” and that “those left behind were the wicked” is the very reversal"

Noah, IN YOUR VERY ARGUMENT , IS LEFT BEHIND.

This is ludicrous.
We have witnessed a tsunami, where a ship on the ground would never saved a thousand people.
Had the ark been there it would have been removed and those LEFT BEHIND perished.

As bad of a conclusion your are manufacturing is, it pales to your reframing of Lot.
JESUS USED BOTH, AS A PICTURE OF HIS COMING.
Both had normal life before the gatherings.

Now look at your CONTINUING DILEMMA.
Now you need Lot staying and Sodom population removed PRE BURNING.

You really stepped in it.
Again, your remedy is to START with the written Word.

Lot was not removed pretrib?
"Before the flood setting", is actually Jesus in confusion?
Half the world is saved? Huh ????
Half is heathen? Huh????
Noah was not gathered into the ark pretrib?
( psssst..."ark" is a type of heaven.)

Noah was lifted high over the mountains DURING THE TRIB.
Noah was in the heavens for the ENTIRE TRIB.
Noah RETURNED TO EARTH POSTRIB.

What is comical is that you guys are forced to go against the bible.
It is embarrassing for you for sure.

 

[OMC]

Nope.
Again, by ignoring WHAT JESUS SAID, you are trying to prove your point by saying JESUS did NOT have a point.

You are definitely not serious about exegesis.
Your fabricated pretrib rapture of the wicked, by necessity, declares that HALF the world righteous, and HALF born again.
Utterly impossible.

You definately painted yourself into a corner.

You keep insisting that Jesus’ Noah‑Lot analogy must teach a pre‑trib rescue of the righteous, but Jesus Himself explicitly defines the pattern as judgment falling on the wicked, not salvation removing the righteous—He says, “the flood came and took them all away” (Matthew 24:39) and “it rained fire… and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:29), and He follows those statements with “so shall it be” at His coming, meaning the ones taken are the ones removed in judgment, while the ones left are the ones preserved, exactly as in Matthew 13:41–43 where the angels remove the wicked from among the righteous; your accusation that this creates a “pre‑trib rapture of the wicked” is a category error, because Jesus is not describing a rapture at all—He is describing final judgment, and your claim that this requires “half the world righteous and half born again” is a straw man, because Jesus is describing two individuals as an illustration of sudden separation, not a statistical distribution of the global population; the corner you think I’m in is the one Jesus Himself stands in, and the only way out of it is to stop reversing His own explanation of who is removed and who is preserved

 

[Psalm1]

According to Scripture, the claim that “Noah was removed” and that “those left behind were the wicked” is the very reversal Jesus corrects, because He explicitly says the ones taken in Noah’s day were those the flood “took them all away” (Matthew 24:39), while Noah—sealed safely in the ark—remained and was preserved, meaning your attempt to turn preservation into “left behind doom” contradicts Jesus’ own interpretation of who is removed in judgment and who is kept safe.

Do you ever investigate????
You just quoted " took them away"

"Took" in that passage is the Greek;

Original Word: αἴρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: airó
Pronunciation: ah'-ee-ro
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
KJV: away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)
NASB: take, taken away, picked, pick, takes away, away, take away
Word Origin: [a primary root]

1. to lift up
2. (by implication) to take up or away
3. (figuratively) to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind)
4. (specially) to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor)
5. (by Hebraism) to atone for sin

What? ????
To sail away?????
to atone for sin???????

Huh???
You were saying???