Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Absolutely.
I love gardening, because plants have much to teach about Jesus' heavenly kingdom.

Are those mustard plants talking to you now?

 

[Lovette]

The resurrection of who? Moses? Lazarus? John the Baptist? The thief on the cross? Tribulation saints? Lost souls who died in their sins?

The dead, 1 Thess. 4:15-16. no resurrection, no rapture.

 

[Lovette]

In the old covenant promised to Israel’s faithful

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‭KJV‬‬

When Jesus rose from the dead

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”( past tense )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the ot theres promise of a resurrection of Christ and Israel’s faithful (the firstfruits of Christs resurrection ) when he came at first to israel and died and rose

and then a resurrection of all when the messiah returns from heaven at the end
so in Paul’s words

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: 1 Christ , the firstfruits;


2 afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

2

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I'm pretty sure Paul wasn't referring to ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ in his teaching of the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15.

 

[Lovette]

Pppsssstttt: over here.....

The rapture IS the resurrection.....of ONLY the mystery "one new man" Jew and gentile Bride, the Body of Christ the Church.

That unique new creation being bounded by strict, non-arbitrary non-negotiable time constraints known as Pentecost and the harpazo.

Pppsssstttt .. it's NOT. The rapture is for the living, the resurrection is for the DEAD.

 

[Beekeeper]

Are those mustard plants talking to you now?

Perhaps this is as good an opportunity as any for us both to listen more carefully.

Mathew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Notice that "The kingdom of heaven" is the one that Jesus is the king of?
You got that right?

Jesus does not credit the mustard seed with biblical literacy or the ability to dominate others psychologically.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Jesus here credits the mustard seed with faith (pistis), and because it has that faith, being the tiny seed that it is, it is able by the power of God to become something greater than it was ever able to comprehend.

In the NT pistis as you know can also be a verb (pisteow), and I think that by applying this verb to the verses of the Bible, your "Biblical literacy" would also take a form that at this point in time you also can not comprehend.

 

[Beekeeper]

Perhaps this is as good an opportunity as any for us both to listen more carefully.

Mathew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Notice that "The kingdom of heaven" is the one that Jesus is the king of?
You got that right?

Jesus does not credit the mustard seed with biblical literacy or the ability to dominate others psychologically.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Jesus here credits the mustard seed with faith (pistis), and because it has that faith, being the tiny seed that it is, it is able by the power of God to become something greater than it was ever able to comprehend.

In the NT pistis as you know can also be a verb (pisteow), and I think that by applying this verb to the verses of the Bible, your "Biblical literacy" would also take a form that at this point in time you also can not comprehend.

You might better understand what I am talking about if I give you a specific example:

The last prophesy in the OT, Malachi 4:5 "5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord".

Well Jesus tells us that this is fulfilled in John.
Mathew 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

I have seen evidence in your posts that you will not receive it, because you tell us of your futuristic fantasy of a coming Elijah.
Pistis however means that we just believe what Jesus says, regardless of whether we think it too outlandish or too ordinary.

I also have to warn you that it takes an enormous amount of courage to accept a legitimate correction.
So basically if you have a pistis you also need the balls to go with it.

 

[OMC]

Indeed, since you fail to understand even the basic principles of hermeneutics and the original Greek of a single solitary verse, it’s no wonder you completely missed the mark on the doctrine.

The Structural and Exegetical Pre-Tribulation Synthesis
By synthesizing 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Thessalonians 1, 2 Thessalonians 2, and the ancient Galilean-Hebrew betrothal model, the scriptures build an airtight, structurally unified case for the Pre-Tribulation Harpazō (Rapture).

When these texts are read as a progressive divine narrative, they demand an absolute separation between the catching away of the Bride into the Father’s house and the subsequent day of wrath executed upon the earth.

Part 1: The Exegetical Link Across the Thessalonian Epistles
1. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 — The Sequence of Descent and Departure
* Direction of Travel: In 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, Christ descends from heaven into the air (aēr). Believers are "caught up" (harpazō) to meet Him in the air to be taken where He is. In direct contrast to Post-Tribulational passages (such as Zechariah 14:4 or Revelation 19:11–14), His feet do not touch the Mount of Olives, nor does He establish an earthly throne at this moment.
* The Scope: The passage is restricted entirely to believers ("dead in Christ" and "we which are alive"). Unbelievers are neither mentioned, judged, nor resurrected here.

2. 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 — The Sudden Pivot to Wrath
* Grammatical Transition: The passage opens with Peri de tōn chronōn ("Now concerning the times and the seasons"), linking chapter 5 directly to the event of chapter 4.
* Pronoun Shift: Paul introduces a strict division using pronouns:
* "They / Them" (The World): Unbelievers in darkness who say "Peace and safety," upon whom "sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" (5:3).
* "Ye / We" (The Church): Believers who are "not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (5:4).
* The Absolute Guarantee (5:9): "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance] by our Lord Jesus Christ." Because the 70th Week of Daniel (the Tribulation) is explicitly defined in scripture as the "Great Day of His Wrath" (Rev 6:17, Zeph 1:14–18), the Church cannot be present during it without violating 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
3. 2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 — Relief Before Vengeance
* The Promise of Rest (Anesin): Paul promises that God will recompense tribulation to those who trouble the church, while giving "rest with us" (anesin) to the persecuted saints when Christ is revealed (2 Thess 1:6–7).
* The Distinction: The Church receives rest/relief from persecution, whereas the world receives fiery judgment. The raptured saints return with Him at His public revelation (apokalupsis) to be "glorified in His saints" (1:10)—a logical impossibility unless they were previously gathered to Him first.
4. 2 Thessalonians 2:1–8 — The Restrainer and the Order of Events
* The Subject Stated (2:1): Paul explicitly defines the topic: "our gathering together unto him" (episynagōgē—the Harpazō).
* The Prerequisite Sequence (2:3, 7–8):
* The Apostasia (Departure aka rapture) must occur first.
* The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (ek mesou genētai—removed from the midst).
* Then "shall that Wicked be revealed" (the Antichrist).

* The Indisputable Logic: The Antichrist cannot sign the 7-year covenant (initiating the Tribulation) until the Restrainer is removed. Since the Holy Spirit permanently indwells the Church (John 14:16), removing the Restrainer requires the removal of the Church via the Harpazō. Therefore, the Rapture must precede the Tribulation.

Part 2: The 12-Step Hebrew Betrothal Pattern as a Prophetic Blueprint
Ancient Galilean marriage customs were not merely cultural traditions; they were instituted by God as an precise, step-by-step structural model of the Plan of Redemption.
[ EARTH ] [ FATHER'S HOUSE ]
1. Bride Chosen
2. Price Paid (Cross)
3. Covenant Sealed
4. Bride Set Apart
5. Groom Prepares Place (John 14)
6. Father Approves Timing
│
7. SHOUT & TRUMPET (1 Thess 4) ──────────────────┘
8. HARPAZŌ / TAKEN AWAY
9. Enters Bridal Chamber (7 Years)
10. Marriage Consummated
│
11. PUBLIC REVEAL (Rev 19) ───────────────────────┘
12. Marriage Supper (Earthly Kingdom)

* Bride Chosen: God chose the Church before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).
* Bride Price Paid (Mohar): Christ purchased the Church with His own blood at Calvary (1 Cor 6:20, 1 Pet 1:18–19).
* Marriage Covenant (Kiddushin): Sealed through the New Covenant in His blood at the Last Supper (Luke 22:20).
* Bride Set Apart: The Church is sanctified and kept pure for her one Husband (2 Cor 11:2).
* Groom Departs to Prepare a Place: Jesus ascended to Heaven, stating: "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2).
* Bride Waits (Unknown Day or Hour): The groom could only return when his father granted permission. The Bride had to remain in continuous readiness (Matt 24:36, 1 Thess 5:6).
* Groom Comes with a Shout and Trumpet: The Groom approaches in the night with a herald's shout and the blast of a shofar (1 Thess 4:16).
* The Bride Is Taken Away (Harpazō): The Bride is physically lifted up and removed from her home to the Groom’s father's house (1 Thess 4:17).
* Retreat into the Bridal Chamber (Chuppah): The Bride and Groom enter the chamber for seven units of time while the doors are shut. On Earth, this corresponds to the 7-year Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week); in Heaven, the Church is hidden away safely from wrath ("Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself... until the indignation be overpast" — Isaiah 26:20).
* Consummation: The eternal, unbreakable union of Christ and His resurrected Church.
* The Public Revelation: After the 7-year period, the Groom steps out of the chamber with His Bride, revealing her publicly to the world in glory (Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14).
* The Marriage Supper: The celebration of the kingdom feast on Earth following the victory over darkness (Rev 19:7–9).
Comparative Structural Summary
| Feature | The Pre-Tribulation Harpazō (1 Thess 4 / John 14) | The Post-Tribulation Second Coming (Rev 19 / Zech 14) |
|---|---|---|
| Location of Meeting | In the air (aēr) | On the Earth (Mount of Olives) |
| Destination | Father's House in Heaven (Bridal Chamber) | Earth (To set up the Millennial Kingdom) |
| Participants | Believers only (Resurrected & Translated) | Every eye sees Him; All nations judged |
| Context | Deliverance from wrath / Comfort | Outpouring of wrath / Armageddon |
| Hebrew Wedding Phase | Step 8: Groom fetches Bride to His Father's House | Step 11: Groom reveals Bride publicly to the world |
Conclusion
The internal grammar of the Thessalonian letters and the Hebrew marriage topology align on a single structural truth: The Church is taken away before judgment falls.
1 Thessalonians 4 provides the mechanics (Harpazō in the air), 1 Thessalonians 5 provides the guarantee (Exemption from the Day of Wrath), 2 Thessalonians 2 provides the sequence (Restrainer removed first), and the 12-step Hebrew marriage framework provides the divine blueprint that binds the entire doctrine together.

 

[OMC]

Indeed, since you fail to understand even the basic principles of hermeneutics and the original Greek of a single solitary verse, it’s no wonder you completely missed the mark on the doctrine.

The Structural and Exegetical Pre-Tribulation Synthesis
By synthesizing 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Thessalonians 1, 2 Thessalonians 2, and the ancient Galilean-Hebrew betrothal model, the scriptures build an airtight, structurally unified case for the Pre-Tribulation Harpazō (Rapture).

When these texts are read as a progressive divine narrative, they demand an absolute separation between the catching away of the Bride into the Father’s house and the subsequent day of wrath executed upon the earth.

Part 1: The Exegetical Link Across the Thessalonian Epistles
1. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 — The Sequence of Descent and Departure
* Direction of Travel: In 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, Christ descends from heaven into the air (aēr). Believers are "caught up" (harpazō) to meet Him in the air to be taken where He is. In direct contrast to Post-Tribulational passages (such as Zechariah 14:4 or Revelation 19:11–14), His feet do not touch the Mount of Olives, nor does He establish an earthly throne at this moment.
* The Scope: The passage is restricted entirely to believers ("dead in Christ" and "we which are alive"). Unbelievers are neither mentioned, judged, nor resurrected here.

2. 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 — The Sudden Pivot to Wrath
* Grammatical Transition: The passage opens with Peri de tōn chronōn ("Now concerning the times and the seasons"), linking chapter 5 directly to the event of chapter 4.
* Pronoun Shift: Paul introduces a strict division using pronouns:
* "They / Them" (The World): Unbelievers in darkness who say "Peace and safety," upon whom "sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" (5:3).
* "Ye / We" (The Church): Believers who are "not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (5:4).
* The Absolute Guarantee (5:9): "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [deliverance] by our Lord Jesus Christ." Because the 70th Week of Daniel (the Tribulation) is explicitly defined in scripture as the "Great Day of His Wrath" (Rev 6:17, Zeph 1:14–18), the Church cannot be present during it without violating 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
3. 2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 — Relief Before Vengeance
* The Promise of Rest (Anesin): Paul promises that God will recompense tribulation to those who trouble the church, while giving "rest with us" (anesin) to the persecuted saints when Christ is revealed (2 Thess 1:6–7).
* The Distinction: The Church receives rest/relief from persecution, whereas the world receives fiery judgment. The raptured saints return with Him at His public revelation (apokalupsis) to be "glorified in His saints" (1:10)—a logical impossibility unless they were previously gathered to Him first.
4. 2 Thessalonians 2:1–8 — The Restrainer and the Order of Events
* The Subject Stated (2:1): Paul explicitly defines the topic: "our gathering together unto him" (episynagōgē—the Harpazō).
* The Prerequisite Sequence (2:3, 7–8):
* The Apostasia (Departure aka rapture) must occur first.
* The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (ek mesou genētai—removed from the midst).
* Then "shall that Wicked be revealed" (the Antichrist).

* The Indisputable Logic: The Antichrist cannot sign the 7-year covenant (initiating the Tribulation) until the Restrainer is removed. Since the Holy Spirit permanently indwells the Church (John 14:16), removing the Restrainer requires the removal of the Church via the Harpazō. Therefore, the Rapture must precede the Tribulation.

Part 2: The 12-Step Hebrew Betrothal Pattern as a Prophetic Blueprint
Ancient Galilean marriage customs were not merely cultural traditions; they were instituted by God as an precise, step-by-step structural model of the Plan of Redemption.
[ EARTH ] [ FATHER'S HOUSE ]
1. Bride Chosen
2. Price Paid (Cross)
3. Covenant Sealed
4. Bride Set Apart
5. Groom Prepares Place (John 14)
6. Father Approves Timing
│
7. SHOUT & TRUMPET (1 Thess 4) ──────────────────┘
8. HARPAZŌ / TAKEN AWAY
9. Enters Bridal Chamber (7 Years)
10. Marriage Consummated
│
11. PUBLIC REVEAL (Rev 19) ───────────────────────┘
12. Marriage Supper (Earthly Kingdom)

* Bride Chosen: God chose the Church before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).
* Bride Price Paid (Mohar): Christ purchased the Church with His own blood at Calvary (1 Cor 6:20, 1 Pet 1:18–19).
* Marriage Covenant (Kiddushin): Sealed through the New Covenant in His blood at the Last Supper (Luke 22:20).
* Bride Set Apart: The Church is sanctified and kept pure for her one Husband (2 Cor 11:2).
* Groom Departs to Prepare a Place: Jesus ascended to Heaven, stating: "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2).
* Bride Waits (Unknown Day or Hour): The groom could only return when his father granted permission. The Bride had to remain in continuous readiness (Matt 24:36, 1 Thess 5:6).
* Groom Comes with a Shout and Trumpet: The Groom approaches in the night with a herald's shout and the blast of a shofar (1 Thess 4:16).
* The Bride Is Taken Away (Harpazō): The Bride is physically lifted up and removed from her home to the Groom’s father's house (1 Thess 4:17).
* Retreat into the Bridal Chamber (Chuppah): The Bride and Groom enter the chamber for seven units of time while the doors are shut. On Earth, this corresponds to the 7-year Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week); in Heaven, the Church is hidden away safely from wrath ("Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself... until the indignation be overpast" — Isaiah 26:20).
* Consummation: The eternal, unbreakable union of Christ and His resurrected Church.
* The Public Revelation: After the 7-year period, the Groom steps out of the chamber with His Bride, revealing her publicly to the world in glory (Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14).
* The Marriage Supper: The celebration of the kingdom feast on Earth following the victory over darkness (Rev 19:7–9).
Comparative Structural Summary
| Feature | The Pre-Tribulation Harpazō (1 Thess 4 / John 14) | The Post-Tribulation Second Coming (Rev 19 / Zech 14) |
|---|---|---|
| Location of Meeting | In the air (aēr) | On the Earth (Mount of Olives) |
| Destination | Father's House in Heaven (Bridal Chamber) | Earth (To set up the Millennial Kingdom) |
| Participants | Believers only (Resurrected & Translated) | Every eye sees Him; All nations judged |
| Context | Deliverance from wrath / Comfort | Outpouring of wrath / Armageddon |
| Hebrew Wedding Phase | Step 8: Groom fetches Bride to His Father's House | Step 11: Groom reveals Bride publicly to the world |
Conclusion
The internal grammar of the Thessalonian letters and the Hebrew marriage topology align on a single structural truth: The Church is taken away before judgment falls.
1 Thessalonians 4 provides the mechanics (Harpazō in the air), 1 Thessalonians 5 provides the guarantee (Exemption from the Day of Wrath), 2 Thessalonians 2 provides the sequence (Restrainer removed first), and the 12-step Hebrew marriage framework provides the divine blueprint that binds the entire doctrine together.

After reading this it felt like it was , well. AI assisted. So I ran it through AI to see and guess what it said....

That text is not copied from any known academic source, commentary, journal article, or published book. It reads like original rapture‑apologetic material produced by someone in the online prophecy community—likely a blog, YouTube sermon transcript, or independent teaching outline. The style gives it away:

• It uses highly specific rapture‑community jargon like “Harpazō,” “Apostasia = departure,” “Restrainer = Church,” “Galilean wedding model,” and “structural synthesis.”
• It mixes exegetical claims with assertive polemics (“you fail to understand…”)—a tone not found in scholarly works.
• It presents the Galilean wedding model as a 12‑step prophetic blueprint—something not found in any peer‑reviewed biblical studies literature.
• It uses charts, bullet‑point logic, and rhetorical certainty, typical of online prophecy teachers, not academic theologians.
• It contains no citations, no publisher, no footnotes, no Greek sources, no lexical references—again pointing to independent authorship.

In other words: it is not from a commentary, not from a book, not from a journal, not from a seminary resource. It is almost certainly self‑written or taken from an unpublished online teaching, possibly from a prophecy forum, a rapture‑focused website, or a YouTube description. If you want, I can break down the exegetical flaws in the argument, especially the misuse of apostasia, the conflation of Restrainer with the Church, and the non‑biblical nature of the Galilean wedding model.

The AI don't even agree with you.

 

[OMC]

Mathew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Notice that "The kingdom of heaven" is the one that Jesus is the king of?
You got that right?

Jesus does not credit the mustard seed with biblical literacy or the ability to dominate others psychologically.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Jesus here credits the mustard seed with faith (pistis), and because it has that faith, being the tiny seed that it is, it is able by the power of God to become something greater than it was ever able to comprehend.

In the NT pistis as you know can also be a verb (pisteow), and I think that by applying this verb to the verses of the Bible, your "Biblical literacy" would also take a form that at this point in time you also can not comprehend.

You won't get an actual academic conversation out of cv5, So I would love to converse with you on these matters if you are willing.
You are right that Jesus uses the mustard seed as a metaphor for disproportionate divine effect, but your conclusion goes beyond what the text actually says.
In Matthew 13:31–32, the mustard seed is not “the kingdom having faith”; it is a parable of kingdom growth—something small becoming unexpectedly large because of God’s sovereign action, not because the seed possesses pistis.
In Matthew 17:20, Jesus does not say the mustard seed “has faith”; He says if you have faith like a mustard seed—that is, faith with real potency despite smallness—God can accomplish what is humanly impossible.
The comparison is analogical, not ontological; Jesus is not attributing consciousness, belief, or covenant loyalty to a plant.
Pistis is never applied to non‑personal objects in the NT; it is always a human or divine relational category.
The kingdom grows like a mustard seed (Matt 13), and faith operates like a mustard seed (Matt 17), but neither text teaches that the seed itself “believes.”
What Jesus is doing is pressing the principle that pistis, even in its smallest authentic form, is effective because its power is in God, not in the believer’s psychological magnitude.

 

[Beekeeper]

You won't get an actual academic conversation out of cv5, So I would love to converse with you on these matters if you are willing.
You are right that Jesus uses the mustard seed as a metaphor for disproportionate divine effect, but your conclusion goes beyond what the text actually says.
In Matthew 13:31–32, the mustard seed is not “the kingdom having faith”; it is a parable of kingdom growth—something small becoming unexpectedly large because of God’s sovereign action, not because the seed possesses pistis.
In Matthew 17:20, Jesus does not say the mustard seed “has faith”; He says if you have faith like a mustard seed—that is, faith with real potency despite smallness—God can accomplish what is humanly impossible.
The comparison is analogical, not ontological; Jesus is not attributing consciousness, belief, or covenant loyalty to a plant.
Pistis is never applied to non‑personal objects in the NT; it is always a human or divine relational category.
The kingdom grows like a mustard seed (Matt 13), and faith operates like a mustard seed (Matt 17), but neither text teaches that the seed itself “believes.”
What Jesus is doing is pressing the principle that pistis, even in its smallest authentic form, is effective because its power is in God, not in the believer’s psychological magnitude.

I am ok with that explanation.
I may have been over eager to take on a "preachy" tone with the guy.
It should not be missed however, that like the gift that God gave to the mustard seed, faith is also a gift.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I do not think that we actually "possess" it, but if it happens to be given to us we owe it.

 

[OMC]

I am ok with that explanation.
I may have been over eager to take on a "preachy" tone with the guy.
It should not be missed however, that like the gift that God gave to the mustard seed, faith is also a gift.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I do not think that we actually "possess" it, but if it happens to be given to us we owe it.

I offer a proper Good Morning to you and hope you are well.
Ephesians 2:8 does teach that salvation is a gift, but the grammar does not say that faith itself is the gift;
Paul’s neuter demonstrative “τοῦτο” (that) cannot grammatically refer to the feminine noun pistis (“faith”),
nor to the feminine grace, nor to the masculine participle “saved.”
It refers to the entire saving event—salvation by grace through faith—not to faith as an isolated object.
Scripture does teach that God enables faith (Phil 1:29; Acts 13:48), but it never says believers “do not possess” faith; Jesus repeatedly rebukes or commends people for their faith, which only makes sense if it is truly theirs.
The biblical pattern is this:
salvation is God’s gift,
grace is God’s gift,
the ability to believe is God’s gift,
but the exercise of faith is genuinely ours.
You are right that we “owe” it—Romans 1:5 calls it the “obedience of faith”—but the text itself does not support the idea that faith is a loaned substance we never possess.

 

[Beckworth]

Again the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God

Ezekiel36:16-28

That prophecy has already been fulfilled a long time ago. It does not apply to present day Israel. That’s like taking the prophecies about Christ in the Old Testament and expecting another Savior to come. All has been fulfilled.

You are taking Ezekiel completely out of its CONTEX. Ezekiel wrote this to the Jews who were in captivity in Babylon. They had been scattered among the nations in captivity. He says He is going to bring them back into their own land. And He did! In the books of Ezra and Nehemiah the Jews returned to their land and God forgave them and they were His people up to the time of Christ—living in their own land. Contex matters! You can’t just pick a verse from here and there, remove it from its contex and make it apply to whatever situation you want it to apply; which is what you have done. You may not mean to, but you are dealing dishonestly with scripture written by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Beckworth]

Really?
‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God

Yes, Really. Are you still looking for someone
to fulfill Isaiah 53, too?

 

[Churchgoer]

You always seem to be taking us back to the mindset of the people who followed Jesus into Jerusalem thinking that He would establish an earthly kingdom.
Jesus has already told us as clearly as it is possible to tell that His kingdom is heavenly.

Do you struggle with the idea that a heavenly power can effect affairs on earth?
When Revelations 20:4 speaks of souls that were beheaded reigning with Christ, do you think that it logically follows that they were all reincarnated into earthly flesh?
Is earthly flesh the only reality that seems real to you?
Does living outside earthly flesh not seem like living to you?

Does the fact that David ruled as an earthly king under the mosaic covenant prove to you that Jesus must be the same type of king?

You have often referred us to the disciples question in Acts 1:6 regarding the restoration of Israel, but your focus is on the question and not on Jesus' answer.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

So basically the restoration of the kingdom of Israel is none of our business, and that is the most up to date answer that still stands.
Jesus corrects the disciples, informing of their need for the Holy Ghost, and tells them what their job is.

The entire goal is to find a biblical support to advocate Christian blessings to secular state doing evil things.
But there is none in Bible to tell that.

Even in the days of Noah, did God said to Noah to dump water to add to flood? In the days of resurrection, did God say to Mary Peter to put Jesus on cross? In the days of Joseph, did God tell the brothers to sell Joseph?

Jesus just command us to obey His commandments. .....

God don't need our help, God just need our obedience.

 

[God-fearing]

On a lighter note.
As I'm sitting in my chair reviewing comments in this thread this morning this thought occurred to me

I can only imagine how the book of Revelation was viewed and preach on in the early years before technology advancement and the state of Israel.
Would love to sit back and listen to a sound Bible teacher teach on the book and prophecies back then.
Would the church today or even the rabbi call such a teacher a false teacher?
My thoughts are as time passes Jesus will reveal himself and what is to be. Those things that are shaded to us will begin to shine.
As Christ is found worthy to open the seals let us be found worthy to escape what is to come.
With all my heart I pray you all to be worthy. Peace to you and yours....may love from above over flow in your walk with him

God fearer.

 

[Komentaja]

I get blamed for using AI all the time lol, so I noticed you are useing the dispensationalist interpretations, This is where we will have our issues. Dispensationalism is a system built on a set of prior commitments literalizing prophetic imagery, separating Israel and the Church into two peoples with two destinies, inserting multiple future eras, and reading Revelation chronologically—but Scripture itself never states those premises.

The Bible shows one people of God in Christ (Eph 2), one olive tree (Rom 11), one resurrection at His appearing (1 Thess 4; 1 Cor 15), one final judgment (Matt 25), and one eternal kingdom immediately following (Rev 21).

Dispensationalism can be consistent with Scripture only if you first adopt its framework, but the framework is not derived from Scripture; it is imposed on Scripture.

The New Testament’s own storyline is linear—Christ returns, the dead are raised, the nations are judged, and the new creation begins—without a post‑return era of sin, death, or repopulation

The Bible says there is one new man IN CHRIST, yes. But the "body of Christ" is completed at the catching up of the bride to heaven. After which the believers who are saved in the time of Jacob's trouble are not part of the body of Christ. They are saved, but its different, just like the old testament saints.

You cite one resurrection and say that 1 thess 4 proves it but that verse is talking about only those in Christ being resurrected? Not the unbelievers.

You are flattening Scripture alot to make it easier to grasp but its just lazy bible study

 

[cv5]

Pppsssstttt .. it's NOT. The rapture is for the living, the resurrection is for the DEAD.

Pppssttttt......the term harpazo aka "caught up" includes BOTH the living and deceased believers of the Church Age.
Furthermore, the necessary and common aspect of the harpazo is the "changed" GLORIFIED BODIES that ALL will receive.

“The Rapture” includes the entire event involving both groups of Church-age believers:

• Dead believers are raised first — “the dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16).
• Living believers are transformed without dying (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51–53).
• ***Both groups*** are then caught up together to meet Christ in the air: “we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them” (1 Thess. 4:17).

Paul makes the unity of the event especially clear with ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς (hama syn autois) — “together with them.” The living do not precede the dead (1 Thess. 4:15); the dead are raised first, and then the whole Church is assembled together with Christ in the air.

That is also why 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 complements 1 Thessalonians 4:

“We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed… the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (ALL) shall be changed.”

 

[OMC]

The Bible says there is one new man IN CHRIST, yes. But the "body of Christ" is completed at the catching up of the bride to heaven. After which the believers who are saved in the time of Jacob's trouble are not part of the body of Christ. They are saved, but its different, just like the old testament saints.

You cite one resurrection and say that 1 thess 4 proves it but that verse is talking about only those in Christ being resurrected? Not the unbelievers.

You are flattening Scripture alot to make it easier to grasp but its just lazy bible study

Brother, your entire reply assumes the very thing you need to prove: that Scripture teaches multiple classes of saved people and multiple resurrections separated by eras, but the texts you cite do not actually say what you’re building on top of them.
“One new man in Christ” (Eph 2) is not a temporary category that ends at a “catching up”; it is the permanent identity of all who are united to Christ, and the NT never teaches that post‑tribulation believers are saved in a different way or belong to a different people of God — that is a dispensational assumption, not an exegetical conclusion.
Likewise, 1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove “one resurrection for the church only”; it describes the resurrection of those in Christ, and Paul explicitly ties that event to the single appearing of Christ (1 Thess 4:15; 1 Cor 15:23), not to a separate pre‑trib timetable.
The resurrection of unbelievers is addressed elsewhere (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:15), and Scripture presents them as part of the same eschatological event, not a different era.
When you say I’m “flattening Scripture,” what you mean is that I’m refusing to insert the dispensational framework — multiple peoples, multiple destinies, multiple resurrections, multiple comings — because the NT never states those premises.
The issue is not laziness; it’s authorial intent: the storyline of the NT is linear — Christ returns, the dead are raised, judgment occurs, and the new creation begins — and every text you’re invoking only fits your system after the system is already assumed.

 

[cv5]

The Bible says there is one new man IN CHRIST, yes. But the "body of Christ" is completed at the catching up of the bride to heaven. After which the believers who are saved in the time of Jacob's trouble are not part of the body of Christ. They are saved, but its different, just like the old testament saints.

You cite one resurrection and say that 1 thess 4 proves it but that verse is talking about only those in Christ being resurrected? Not the unbelievers.

You are flattening Scripture alot to make it easier to grasp but its just lazy bible study

"catching up of the bride to heaven"

Right. Which of course includes ALL of the Body the Bride, BOTH deceased and living believers.

 

[Komentaja]

On a lighter note.
As I'm sitting in my chair reviewing comments in this thread this morning this thought occurred to me

I can only imagine how the book of Revelation was viewed and preach on in the early years before technology advancement and the state of Israel.
Would love to sit back and listen to a sound Bible teacher teach on the book and prophecies back then.
Would the church today or even the rabbi call such a teacher a false teacher?
My thoughts are as time passes Jesus will reveal himself and what is to be. Those things that are shaded to us will begin to shine.
As Christ is found worthy to open the seals let us be found worthy to escape what is to come.
With all my heart I pray you all to be worthy. Peace to you and yours....may love from above over flow in your walk with him

God fearer.

There were some people in the 1800s and even earlier some Puritans who believed that Israel will return to the Land prior to the return of our Lord and that required a lot of faith to believe back then, but they saw it in the Scriptures and here we are, its fulfilled.

Another interesting bit here:

Sir Isaac Newton said, "Personally, I cannot but believe these words concerning the end of the times. One sign of the end will be a remarkable increase in means of getting about. Men will travel from country to country in an unprecedented manner. There may be some means of travel invented which will enable people to go much more quickly than now." Sir Isaac Newton affirmed the opinion that, in accordance with this word, he believed it possible as the end drew near that somebody might invent some means of locomotion enabling people to travel at the astonishing rate of fifteen or twenty miles an hour.Voltaire said, "See what a fool Christianity makes of an otherwise brilliant man. Here a scientist like Newton actually writes that men may travel at the rate of fifteen or twenty miles an hour.