Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes friend, it is true that these passages are utterly meaningless to one such as yourself.

However, they are definitive proof of the pre-trib rapture nevertheless......

You see, some people do "get it" because they "have it". The gifts of wisdom and knowledge that is.

[2Ti 2:17-18 KJV] 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

It's hilarious how puffed you are. Very entertaining!

You're going to look back at all you posted and you WILL feel embarrassed.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

No you haven't. Every resurrection you listed (Lazarus, Jairs's daughter, etc) were in the past, as of Paul's teaching, the dead were still dead, where is their pre-trib resurrection?

Right. They are all dead.

The resurrection also includes being clothed with immortality and become like Jesus. Do you see them walking around here alive and being like Jesus? Nope.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you really revere Jesus's teaching, how about taking a real good look at this - "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. " (Jn. 5:28-29) There're only two resurrections, one is post trib, the other is post millennium, none is pre-trib.
“them that slept", key word, so the dead were still in the grave, right? Waiting for their resurrection? Then how could Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ fit the bill, where the dead saints had crawled out of the grave?“


what ? ….lol
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. "

yes I knew you were referring to this prior when you said there are two resurrection the “righteous and wicked “


Jesus is talking about works being good and evil . If we’ve done evil we’re going to be raised up with the wicked and receive thoer reward of we’ve done good we’ll be raised up and receive the righteous rewards .

I see this as Jesus saying “ everyone in thier graves will here my voice some will rise up for life and me for judgement based on thier deeds “ but not as two seperete resurrections

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; ( one even and resurrection of all the dead )

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; ( one destination ) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”( another destination )
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So to answer I think we’re reading that differently I think all will be raised at once some to life and some will be judged and cast into the lake of fire when all the dead appear before his judgement throne .

The two resurrections have a long period of time between them one was in Jesus generation when he was here , another will be when he returns


When he returns there’s also two different experiences believers will experience this when Jesus returns

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

bit then there’s another experience the same time after this happens

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s many different images but it’s all the same lesson when Jesus retirns there will be a resurrection of all humanity the first time he came there was a resurrection of the chosen remnant saints who are now dwelling in heavens kingdom with Jesus

 

[cv5]

No you haven't. Every resurrection you listed (Lazarus, Jairs's daughter, etc) were in the past, as of Paul's teaching, the dead were still dead, where is their pre-trib resurrection?

If that parcel of miniscule minutiae is all of what you thus far have gleaned from the epic voluminous eschatological teaching content on this thread, then you are truly a hopeless case.

But frankly, I knew this long ago.
You are among those who are entirely unteachable, and there is nothing that you or I can do to change this prognosis.

Sorry fake sorry......

I suggest that you and those of your ilk hold hands and stride grimly into the tribulation. And good luck believe me you are going to need it.

Oh and BTW, the answer to your inquiry is so obvious that it's too embarrassing for me to waste time addressing it. A mere child could answer it effortlessly.

 

[Beekeeper]

It’s only my opinion I’m not claiming to have some authority or office or anything but that’s my position .


which beast ? I know that a lot of people have ideas of the mark I’ve heard lots of theories some think it’s Nero’s name in the numerical alphabet that was commonly known in the times others think it’s mocking of the mark god speaks of his people having as a sign upon thier forehaeds and hands through faithfulness to him . Sort of evil works and tboughts v godly works and thoughts

But I personally have never really looked into what it could have been there are some good plausible theories other than the two I suggested I’m not sure bout the mark brother. Never have studied or prayed about it

The seven headed beast is a co tibia toon of daniels four beasts with seven heads and ten horns ( Daniel 7) johns writing as the sixth head rules and 7 was going to rise up shortly.

But then there’s “ the beast that was , and is not , goeth to perdition but shall come later out of the abyss and rule with the ten kings …..this is the one concerning the mark the 8th king is the beast often times in the context other times it’s the seven headed beast but the head that was wounded yet lives he’s the 8th king


It’s a possibility that the seven kings were all in that generation

and that also the 8th king who returns with the ten kings serving him for a short is for a latter days

Bit anything I say is just what I think after reading scripture over the years and thinking and considering ect

I have already expressed the view that the sixth king was Nero.
Beasts generally represent empires, heads represent kings and horns represent provincial rulers, i.e. the 10 provincial rulers of Rome.
The 7 mountains of Revelations 17:9 are also Rome.
Nero is also specifically represented as a "beast".
Nero later cuts his own throat with his sword (Revelations 13:3 and 13:10), plunging Rome into absolute chaos, war and ruin, so that the empire appeared to be ended, hence the short failed reign of Galba.
Revelations 13:3....."and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast"
Vespasian returns and revives the empire.

This sermon covers a lot of my views on that subject:

 

[Beekeeper]

You have no answer, your mouth is stopped. To this or anything else that I post. Frankly it would be a waste of ink to even try.

Silence is certain proof that.....they have no answer....

Obviously.

Psa 63:11 - But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.

Silence can mean a lot of different things, but the fact that you interpret it that way also tells us a lot about your approach to interpretation.

 

[Beekeeper]

Only a fool or the damned take a "wait and see" attitude as regards eschatology. Jesus Himself warns accordingly and profusely.

Therefore, since you reject the biblical doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, enjoy the horrors of the tribulation friend. And just remember this: you condemned you own self. With no help from me whatsoever.

Oh and BTW, @OMC got all weepy and self righteous last time I said this. He declared that I was condemning believers to the tribulation.

Which is patently absurd on its face, because you see he is in fact ALSO a post-tribber! Consequently he ALSO condemns HIMSELF, yet cast the blame for his condemnation upon me, the one who believes in the pre-trib rapture and preaches it continuously!

Truly I pity those who are brainwashed into denying their blessed hope and are deceived into self-condemnation.

Do you really think you are saving yourself by your theology?
I already knew that you were a bit smug, but this takes it to a whole different level!
Are you sure your not the Antichrist?

 

[Lovette]

If that parcel of miniscule minutiae is all of what you thus far have gleaned from the epic voluminous eschatological teaching content on this thread, then you are truly a hopeless case.

But frankly, I knew this long ago.
You are among those who are entirely unteachable, and there is nothing that you or I can do to change this prognosis.

Sorry fake sorry......

I suggest that you and those of your ilk hold hands and stride grimly into the tribulation. And good luck believe me you are going to need it.

Oh and BTW, the answer to your inquiry is so obvious that it's too embarrassing for me to waste time addressing it. A mere child could answer it effortlessly.

What's so obvious is the emperor's new clothes, you have no answer at all, as much as there's no "zeroth" pretrib resurrection of the saints at all.

 

[Lovette]

Then how could Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ fit the bill, where the dead saints had crawled out of the grave?“

Were they risen in incorruptible bodies? In a perfect world, instead of our sinful and broken one? If not, then they didn't fit the bill at all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have already expressed the view that the sixth king was Nero.
Beasts generally represent empires, heads represent kings and horns represent provincial rulers, i.e. the 10 provincial rulers of Rome.
The 7 mountains of Revelations 17:9 are also Rome.
Nero is also specifically represented as a "beast".
Nero later cuts his own throat with his sword (Revelations 13:3 and 13:10), plunging Rome into absolute chaos, war and ruin, so that the empire appeared to be ended, hence the short failed reign of Galba.
Revelations 13:3....."and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast"
Vespasian returns and revives the empire.

This sermon covers a lot of my views on that subject:

Thanks for sharing your views it’s a good read through to consider.

“Beasts generally represent empires, heads represent kings and horns represent provincial rulers”

did you notice the ten crowns on the horns ?

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So if Nero is the sixth head here

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past ) and one is,( johns present ) and the other is not yet come; ( johns future ) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Nero is six , who would be the seventh ?

did you notice this johns hearing how this will happen .

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then sees this

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

……,And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:11-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then sees this

“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason I’m highlighting this is I’m wondering do you think this is about the first generation of the church ? Or the last ?

 

[WayneNSO]

I know you don't believe, but just watch the times we live in. Jesus said we can know the season even though we won't know the day or the hour.

That is a good argument against the full Preterist position, that everything has been fulfilled and things are getting better with more turning to Christianity every year. I do not see that, no doubt the time of no more sorrow and Christ as our King on earth will come, but at present all I see is things waxing worse, and worldly anti-Christian sentiment rising, so I think we have a partial agreement here ?

 

[WayneNSO]

No you haven't. Every resurrection you listed (Lazarus, Jairs's daughter, etc) were in the past, as of Paul's teaching, the dead were still dead, where is their pre-trib resurrection?

And Lazarus went on to die, he did not have an immortal body, everlasting life, just an extension to his life.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Were they risen in incorruptible bodies? In a perfect world, instead of our sinful and broken one? If not, then they didn't fit the bill at all.

You sort of keep demanding new details be present in everything I’ve shown you in Israel’s covenant that they were promised a resurrection when the messiah came and then shown you it happening in the gospel to israelite saints who had been buried

……and no incorruptable bodies is about the last resurrection at the end of the new covenant when the new things willl be fulfilled they are spiritual bodies

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: ….. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35-36, 42, 44, 49-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That has nothing to do with what I’ve shown you it’s paul teaching Christian’s about the resurrection that is in the new covenant promises. Israel had a covenant prior before he made the new one

It was mediated by Moses
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭34:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To understand Israel’s covenant we have to read it and accept what’s written that defines the covenant Moses words ot had its own mediator , own sacrofoces . Own preists it’s own blood and it’s own word from its own mediator
“And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in thier covenant later the prophets began promising a resurrection for Israel’s saints which I’ve shown you a few times now for when the messiah came with life

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

each testament promises a resurrection to the people of that covenant . the ot promised the faithful of Israel in the ot that when he came He would open thier graves and they would rise.

The New Testament promises that just as Jesus ascended into heaven he will return from heaven and raise all the faithful in him and gather all who are still living to be with him in a new creation where he dwells among the people and walks the streets of Jerusalem

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And Lazarus went on to die, he did not have an immortal body, everlasting life, just an extension to his life.

To be clear the bible never says what happened to Lazarus later ot does say man is appointed once to die

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“ Lazarus died twice “ is just an inferance with no basis.

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who are those men who had been redeemed from the earth with Jesus in heaven ? How’d they get there ?

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth…… These were redeemed from among men,

being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Who could those 144000 redeemed from the earth standing in sion with Jesus be ?

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the spirits of just men made perfect

remember resurrection bodies are spiritual

 

[WayneNSO]

To be clear the bible never says what happened to Lazarus later ot does say man is appointed once to die

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“ Lazarus died twice “ is just an inferance with no basis.

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who are those men who had been redeemed from the earth with Jesus in heaven ? How’d they get there ?

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth…… These were redeemed from among men,

being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Who could those 144000 redeemed from the earth standing in sion with Jesus be ?

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the spirits of just men made perfect

remember resurrection bodies are spiritual

So what happened to Lazarus? Why is he not the oldest man in the world today ? Let me guess, he was conveniently swept up to heaven, despite the Bible saying that our inheritance is on Earth, blesses are the meek etc.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So what happened to Lazarus? Why is he not the oldest man in the world today ? Let me guess, he was conveniently swept up to heaven, despite the Bible saying that our inheritance is on Earth, blesses are the meek etc.

“So what happened to Lazarus?“

the bible never says . What happened to Enoch ? Why isn’t he the oldest man ?

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again though what I had said is it’s complete inferance to claim “ Lazarus died twice “ that’s factual the scriotire never tells us beyond the meal he later shared with Jesus


My contention is that there’s a place in heaven where god dwells and like there with Enoch he’s able to translate people from flesh to spirit like Paul explains about the resurrection we’re waiting for at the end

 

[OMC]

“So what happened to Lazarus?“

the bible never says . What happened to Enoch ? Why isn’t he the oldest man ?

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again though what I had said is it’s complete inferance to claim “ Lazarus died twice “ that’s factual the scriotire never tells us beyond the meal he later shared with Jesus


My contention is that there’s a place in heaven where god dwells and like there with Enoch he’s able to translate people from flesh to spirit like Paul explains about the resurrection we’re waiting for at the end

Lazarus was raised as a sign, not glorified, and John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life, not the eschatological transformation Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15. The inheritance of the meek on the earth (Matt 5:5) refers to the final state, not the intermediate state, and does not forbid God from taking individuals to Himself prior to the resurrection; Elijah proves that point as clearly as Enoch. So the correct conclusion is simple: Lazarus was raised to mortal life, lived as a witness, and died again at some point — not because the text says “he died twice,” but because resurrection to immortality is explicitly tied to Christ’s return, not to the sign‑miracle at Bethany.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Lazarus was raised as a sign, not glorified, and John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life, not the eschatological transformation Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15. The inheritance of the meek on the earth (Matt 5:5) refers to the final state, not the intermediate state, and does not forbid God from taking individuals to Himself prior to the resurrection; Elijah proves that point as clearly as Enoch. So the correct conclusion is simple: Lazarus was raised to mortal life, lived as a witness, and died again at some point — not because the text says “he died twice,” but because resurrection to immortality is explicitly tied to Christ’s return, not to the sign‑miracle at Bethany.

“Lazarus was raised as a sign, not glorified, and John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life, not the eschatological transformation Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15.“


first….. I never said it was what Paul was talking about . I’ve specifically made the point that it wasn’t .

Second show me why you say this in John 11-12

John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life…..

Doesn’t Jesus say that anyone who lives and believes in him will never die ? Doesn’t he say “ I am the resurrection and life ?” That isn’t suggesting temporary extension of mortal life is it ? To say “ anyone who lives and believes in me will never die ?

What’s happening is you guys have theories and so anything you see you simple explain away without ever addressing it but not by using any scripture you’re just explaining what it doesn’t .

to be clear ……. Someone said as a fact “ Lazarus died again it was temporary “

and what I said was “ the Bible never tells us that it’s a matter of inferance wi th no scriptiral support “ that’s a fact . I know some of you have different opinions and that’s ok the point is no one should assume “ Lazarus died a second time ot eas a sign and just temporary “ because you don’t actually know that. Enoch was translated and never died . This doesn’t mean Enoch spent eternity on earth …….. where did Enoch get translated to?

“Lazarus was raised to mortal life, lived as a witness, and died again at some point — not because the text says “he died twice,” but because resurrection to immortality is explicitly tied to Christ’s return, not to the sign‑miracle at Bethany.”

yes This is your inferring that he did I understand . But no it’s tied to Christ coming the first time to israel also the first resurrection of the saints ……

 

[OMC]

“Lazarus was raised as a sign, not glorified, and John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life, not the eschatological transformation Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15.“


first….. I never said it was what Paul was talking about . I’ve specifically made the point that it wasn’t .

Second show me why you say this in John 11-12

John 11–12 treats his resurrection as a temporary restoration of mortal life…..

Doesn’t Jesus say that anyone who lives and believes in him will never die ? Doesn’t he say “ I am the resurrection and life ?” That isn’t suggesting temporary extension of mortal life is it ? To say “ anyone who lives and believes in me will never die ?

What’s happening is you guys have theories and so anything you see you simple explain away without ever addressing it but not by using any scripture you’re just explaining what it doesn’t .

to be clear ……. Someone said as a fact “ Lazarus died again it was temporary “

and what I said was “ the Bible never tells us that it’s a matter of inferance wi th no scriptiral support “ that’s a fact . I know some of you have different opinions and that’s ok the point is no one should assume “ Lazarus died a second time ot eas a sign and just temporary “ because you don’t actually know that. Enoch was translated and never died . This doesn’t mean Enoch spent eternity on earth …….. where did Enoch get translated to?

“Lazarus was raised to mortal life, lived as a witness, and died again at some point — not because the text says “he died twice,” but because resurrection to immortality is explicitly tied to Christ’s return, not to the sign‑miracle at Bethany.”

yes This is your inferring that he did I understand . But no it’s tied to Christ coming the first time to israel also the first resurrection of the saints ……

Brother, nothing I said depends on “Paul’s resurrection” or on confusing Lazarus’s sign‑miracle with glorification; you already affirmed they’re different, and I’m agreeing with you.
The reason John 11–12 treats Lazarus’s resurrection as mortal is because the narrative itself keeps Lazarus inside the normal conditions of mortal life — he eats a meal (John 12:2), he is a target for murder (John 12:10), and he is used as a sign to provoke belief, not as a preview of the final resurrection; glorified saints are never described as eating dinner in Bethany or being threatened by assassins.
When Jesus says, “He who lives and believes in Me shall never die,” He is not redefining Lazarus’s condition; He is declaring the eschatological promise of eternal life, the same promise He gives in John 6, John 10, and John 14 — and He immediately asks Martha, “Do you believe this?” because He is grounding her hope in future resurrection, not claiming Lazarus’s present state is immortal.
Your point that Scripture never states Lazarus died again is true, but Scripture also never states Enoch remained alive on earth — silence is not evidence, and the only resurrection Scripture ties to immortality is the one at Christ’s appearing (John 6:39–40; 1 Cor 15:23).
So the claim “Lazarus died again” is not dogma; it is simply the only conclusion consistent with the fact that Lazarus was restored to ordinary human life, not transformed into the imperishable life Paul describes.

 

[WayneNSO]

the bible never says . What happened to Enoch ? Why isn’t he the oldest man ?

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again though what I had said is it’s complete inferance to claim “ Lazarus died twice “ that’s factual the scriotire never tells us beyond the meal he later shared with Jesus


My contention is that there’s a place in heaven where god dwells and like there with Enoch he’s able to translate people from flesh to spirit like Paul explains about the resurrection we’re waiting for at the end

Jesus himself said:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 3:13

Lets look at the verse in Hebrews in context.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain . . .

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death . . .

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet . . .

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place . . .

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Notice that Hebrews chapter 11 mentions Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham, then in verse 13 we get this: "These all died in faith", who died in faith? All the ones previously listed. "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And in verse 39, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" Verse 40, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect"

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They are all waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ and the ressurection. As Paul writes in Titus 1 verse 2:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 1:2

Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Notice it doesnt say some of his days, it says all of his days. He was not changed to immortality and continued to walk with God, all the days he lived were three hundred and sixty-five years. And if he lived only for three hundred and sixty-five years THEN HE MUST HAVE DIED!

In the next verse, we get the phrase "and he was not", this is biblical language for he was dead.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Genesis 5:24

An example of this is Matthew 2:17:

Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Meaning the children died.

So when Genesis 5 verse 24 says Enoch, he was not, it means Enoch died.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Genesis 5:24

So now lets look at this translated part:

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Genesis 5:24

We read that "God took him" and in Hebrews 11 verse 5 we read that Enoch: "was translated that he should not see death; and was not found,"

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5

By implication had not God taken him he would of suffered a violent death. There was probably a lot of death and destruction in the Earth prior to the judgement of the flood. God moved him, translated him, from one place to another, and gave him a peaceful death.

A similar event happened to Moses.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

In Deuteronomy 34 verses 5 and 6 we read how God took Moses from the people after which Moses died and was buried by God. He was buried in secret, no man knows where he was buried. If the people knew where he was buried, you can be sure that they would build a shrine and worship him.

So like Enoch, God removed, translated Moses from the people, and buried him. Giving them both a peaceful death.

We see a similar unusual event in the New Testament concerning Phillip:

Acts 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

In Acts chapter 8 we find Phillip being sent to a eunuch from Ethiopia, who was in his chariot reading Isaiah 53. Phillip starting at that scripture preached Jesus Christ to him. When they came to some water and the eunuch asked if he could be baptized, Phillip replied, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest."

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Then in verse 39 we get this: "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more" "But Philip was found at Azotus"

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Like Enoch, Phillip was taken away by the spirit, only in his case it was to preach elsewhere.