Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[GWH]

G,
you have always demonstrated a good and kind nature. Thank you.

Thank YOU! Wish you were around when I was getting accused of doing otherwise,
although most haters seem to have departed this forum--or have been departed.

The worst accusation I have experienced lately is using too many acronyms,
so I confessed and have been typing out many of them. TTYL, LTL.
LIC, GWH

 

[Watchman22]

My reason for beginning this thread is simply to share my fallible faith with atheists, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth. I am grateful to all people—famous philosophers and anonymous acquaintances—who have helped shape my beliefs.

I believe reality is interconnected or unified, so that it is not necessary to worry about where to start exploring, but I will begin by asking the following philosophical question: Is there some truth which is not debatable; which everyone believes at least implicitly and uses as a common point of departure in discussing ultimate reality? I think there is such axiomatic truth, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student. Thus, absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen (even in ice .

An “ism” affirms some valid part of reality. The truth represented by skepticism is that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. I find this truth expressed by the apostle Paul in the New Testament (NT) book of 1 Corinthians 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror).

The element of uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic has “certain” assumptions at least implicitly; so, what do y'all think are three pre-Scriptural axiomatic truths revealed via right logic?

Over...

78 pages, maybe you already covered this.

G, do you really think there is people out there that don't or haven't been living life, surrendering themselves to God?

The word God means , a power greater than ourselves.

I think that every human being is serving something that they perceive is greater than themselves. Something that has power over them.

1) money,
2) power,
3) prestige,
4) men or woman,
5) drugs, alcohol,
6) job,
7) etc.

So in religious terms, every human being is faithing towards something. Of course only one object of faith will result in eternal life. So in reality, you would be trying to persevere to surrender thems to your God , instead of theirs, right?

Gods program, is a program of attraction. That call of the Father should cause His chosen to search out certain things that will satisfy the caller.

My question, is do you seek out atheists?
And If you do, do you think all mankind is called out by the Father?

 

[GWH]

78 pages, maybe you already covered this.

G, do you really think there is people out there that don't or haven't been living life, surrendering themselves to God?

The word God means , a power greater than ourselves.

I think that every human being is serving something that they perceive is greater than themselves. Something that has power over them.

1) money,
2) power,
3) prestige,
4) men or woman,
5) drugs, alcohol,
6) job,
7) etc.

So in religious terms, every human being is faithing towards something. Of course only one object of faith will result in eternal life. So in reality, you would be trying to persevere to surrender thems to your God , instead of theirs, right?

Gods program, is a program of attraction. That call of the Father should cause His chosen to search out certain things that will satisfy the caller.

My question, is do you seek out atheists?
And If you do, do you think all mankind is called out by the Father?

I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn.
Yes, there are many temptations, including pride in how good/surrendered we are.
Yes, the spiritual choice is binary: God (love and truth) or Satan (hate and lies).
God attracts everyone to become chosen, but not irresistibly.
Yes, ever since I encountered atheism circa 1967 my desire has been to save atheists and to inoculate Christians against atheism.
Yes, I think Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37 apply to all of humanity.

Do my answers agree with your beliefs?

 

[rewriter]

I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn.
Yes, there are many temptations, including pride in how good/surrendered we are.
Yes, the spiritual choice is binary: God (love and truth) or Satan (hate and lies).
God attracts everyone to become chosen, but not irresistibly.
Yes, ever since I encountered atheism circa 1967 my desire has been to save atheists and to inoculate Christians against atheism.
Yes, I think Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37 apply to all of humanity.

Do my answers agree with your beliefs?

Be careful with your first assertion, such a statement of "not always" would include the writers of the NT, and without knowing their status vis a vis God at the time of their writing, they might have introduced errors into what we accept as scripture.

 

[GWH]

Be careful with your first assertion, such a statement of "not always" would include the writers of the NT, and without knowing their status vis a vis God at the time of their writing, they might have introduced errors into what we accept as scripture.

They might have introduced errors no matter what we assert about them,
and what we accept is not infallible. We walk by sufficiently confident faith, not by absolutely certain proof.

Right rewriter? :^)

 

[rewriter]

They might have introduced errors no matter what we assert about them,
and what we accept is not infallible. We walk by sufficiently confident faith, not by absolutely certain proof.

Right rewriter? :^)

Correct. Such allows Paul to claim that he is writing his own opinion, not God's and also for him to make a rather strange argument about women's hair.

It also allows politics to play a much bigger factor in the writings than is commonly recognized. More on that in a different post, likely my own of NT

 

[Watchman22]

I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn.
Yes, there are many temptations, including pride in how good/surrendered we are.
Yes, the spiritual choice is binary: God (love and truth) or Satan (hate and lies).
God attracts everyone to become chosen, but not irresistibly.
Yes, ever since I encountered atheism circa 1967 my desire has been to save atheists and to inoculate Christians against atheism.
Yes, I think Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37 apply to all of humanity.

Do my answers agree with your beliefs?

You said,
"I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn."

Lets look at this first.

You don't think a called out one, who has responded with saving faith, gone through the acceptance, testing , grafting on, and is given the spirit of Christ, isn't always Spirit filled?

 

[LTL]

I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn.
Yes, there are many temptations, including pride in how good/surrendered we are.
Yes, the spiritual choice is binary: God (love and truth) or Satan (hate and lies).
God attracts everyone to become chosen, but not irresistibly.
Yes, ever since I encountered atheism circa 1967 my desire has been to save atheists and to inoculate Christians against atheism.
Yes, I think Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37 apply to all of humanity.

Do my answers agree with your beliefs?

G,
my dad was a true atheist, So much in fact that I did not want to talk to him about the Savior. But after more than twenty years of being removed from a wicked family, I visited them in Southeastern Kansas and all their hatred was still there. But I did sit down with them to discuss the atonement and they treated me with the same distance that I had seen them treat others who witnessed to them. And now he is sitting in hell since 2015. A younger brother, sixty five year old, joined him in 2022. Yes they hate each other and they hate others. And to hell they went to suffer the buffeting of Satan.

And yet I chose Jesus as my god in about 1978. And I was away from them for years because they were servants of hate. If atheists can not see the advantage of having love as the guiding light, then to hell with them. It is where they belong. And then after some heat and fire and hate upon them by the wicked then they will learn to see the advantage of a loving God. So some turn to Jesus on their own, and others must first burn in hell.

So let them burn in hell with their kind. The Savior is just in all his dealings. Let them burn and then they can decide if they want to stay in that wicked place or repent to the advantage of the second resurrection. Where they will remain in their sin forever but come forth away from hell to a kingdom of spiritual death. Not having salvation from sin but to live with their kind away from the love of Jesus Christ. Let them burn for a while so they can see the advantage of a loving God.

 

[Watchman22]

G,
my dad was a true atheist, So much in fact that I did not want to talk to him about the Savior. But after more than twenty years of being removed from a wicked family, I visited them in Southeastern Kansas and all their hatred was still there. But I did sit down with them to discuss the atonement and they treated me with the same distance that I had seen them treat others who witnessed to them. And now he is sitting in hell since 2015. A younger brother, sixty five year old, joined him in 2022. Yes they hate each other and they hate others. And to hell they went to suffer the buffeting of Satan.

And yet I chose Jesus as my god in about 1978. And I was away from them for years because they were servants of hate. If atheists can not see the advantage of having love as the guiding light, then to hell with them. It is where they belong. And then after some heat and fire and hate upon them by the wicked then they will learn to see the advantage of a loving God. So some turn to Jesus on their own, and others must first burn in hell.

So let them burn in hell with their kind. The Savior is just in all his dealings. Let them burn and then they can decide if they want to stay in that wicked place or repent to the advantage of the second resurrection. Where they will remain in their sin forever but come forth away from hell to a kingdom of spiritual death. Not having salvation from sin but to live with their kind away from the love of Jesus Christ. Let them burn for a while so they can see the advantage of a loving God.

So when Jesus told the centurion you "and" your household ? Don't you think thats worth some investigation before you send your household to hell?

 

[LTL]

So when Jesus told the centurion you "and" your household ? Don't you think thats worth some investigation before you send your household to hell?

They send themselves to hell by rejecting the law of Jesus Christ. To love God with all your heart. Which they do not. Because they are laws unto themselves to hate each other. So away with them to their refuge of hate which is hell.

 

[Watchman22]

They send themselves to hell by rejecting the law of Jesus Christ. To love God with all your heart. Which they do not. Because they are laws unto themselves to hate each other. So away with them to their refuge of hate which is hell.

So i guess that would be a no.

 

[LTL]

So i guess that would be a no.

Are you speaking for me?

 

[Watchman22]

They send themselves to hell by rejecting the law of Jesus Christ. To love God with all your heart. Which they do not. Because they are laws unto themselves to hate each other. So away with them to their refuge of hate which is hell.

That judgment is the one judgment were not allowed to perform.

My advice would be check yourself, your thinking is off.

 

[LTL]

That judgment is the one judgment were not allowed to perform.

My advice would be check yourself, your thinking is off.

You may question the Savior but I will not. The wicked go to hell where they belong.

 

[Watchman22]

You may question the Savior but I will not. The wicked go to hell where they belong.

Im trying to help your household from being sent to hell, how is that questioning Jesus?

Again, you've made a judgment your not qualified to make.

 

[LTL]

Im trying to help your household from being sent to hell, how is that questioning Jesus?

Again, you've made a judgment your not qualified to make.

You are sadly mistaken. Those who do not follow the Savior by definition follow Lucifer. Therefore, when they reject the message of the gospel they reject their God and thereby are judged. And he calls to them again and again and they reject him again and again. Their fate is hell to suffer the buffeting of Satan. Which by the way is easily avoidable. But no, they choose to be their own gods and they deserve the rewards of the hate they spew.

 

[Watchman22]

You are sadly mistaken. Those who do not follow the Savior by definition follow Lucifer. Therefore, when they reject the message of the gospel they reject their God and thereby are judged. And he calls to them again and again and they reject him again and again. Their fate is hell to suffer the buffeting of Satan. Which by the way is easily avoidable. But no, they choose to be their own gods and they deserve the rewards of the hate they spew.

You have incorrect foundational understandings.

Only a small group is called out from among a larger group that are not called.

Those ones who are not called, "are yours and my households."

 

[LTL]

You have incorrect foundational understandings.

Only a small group is called out from among a larger group that are not called.

Those ones who are not called, "are yours and my households."

I do not understand your response.

I do understand that servants minister to others. But that is a different situation. We teach our family and they decide to follow or not. If they teach others to hate, then they have crossed the line.

There are many who choose to be laws unto themselves and do not hate. These atheists like to quantify their belief doctrine as deists. Not quite an atheist and not quite a follower of Jesus Christ. When in fact, they are followers of Jesus Christ under their breath.

But I am talking about the true haters of others. They hate and will not love. They have no light in them. And they belong in hell with their kind.

But for others who do not hate there is hope for them. They should accept the Savior who loves them.

 

[Watchman22]

I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn.
Yes, there are many temptations, including pride in how good/surrendered we are.
Yes, the spiritual choice is binary: God (love and truth) or Satan (hate and lies).
God attracts everyone to become chosen, but not irresistibly.
Yes, ever since I encountered atheism circa 1967 my desire has been to save atheists and to inoculate Christians against atheism.
Yes, I think Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37 apply to all of humanity.

Do my answers agree with your beliefs?

1547?

 

[GWH]

You said,
"I believe no one attains moral perfection or is always Spirit-filled/completely surrendered during this earthly sojourn."

Lets look at this first.

You don't think a called out one, who has responded with saving faith, gone through the acceptance, testing , grafting on, and is given the spirit of Christ, isn't always Spirit filled?

Obviously not, because Spirit-filled folks do not sin, but saints do sin.
When saints sin, if they confess, then God forgives and they are again Spirit-filled/cooperating fully with God. Again, as soon as a new Spirit-filled/baptized Christian realizes a sin was committed, he/she should confess it (1John 1:9) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did (Gen. 3:7-8). Then God will forgive, and the saint will again be in a Spirit-filled or spiritual/surrendered condition.

This spiritual flip-flopping might happen once a day, or it could occur several times in an hour. While this instability may be bad, failure to confess promptly is much worse, because it results in chain-sinning or back-sliding. This condition is also referred to as being carnal/worldly (1Cor. 3:1) or prodigal (Luke 15:13) if it continues for weeks or years.

This unstable or immature phase in a Christian’s spiritual relationship with God is followed eventually (and hopefully soon) by a second phase of relative perfection or maturity signified in the Bible (especially the King James Version) by the phrase “walking with God” or what you like to call "the surrendered life".

Gen. 5:24 describes Enoch as a man who walked with God, and the apostle Paul described the goal of Christians (the fullness of Christ) as walking with God (Rom. 6:4, Gal. 5:16, Eph. 4:1, 1Thes. 4:1). Elsewhere the continually (ideally) Spirit-filled condition is referred to as walking: in light (1John 1:7), in love (Eph. 5:2), in a new life (Rom. 6:4), according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:4), and in good works (Col. 1:10).

The outward evidence that someone is Spirit-filled (Eph. 5:18) or walking with God is the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit or fullness of Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13), which consists of such attributes as those listed in Gal. 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (John13:35), because “love” sums up the moral character/nature of God (1John 4:7-8).