Replacement theology? Yes or No.

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Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem ***Jews***, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

No, you roasted yourself. As always.
Sigh..... :sneaky:

"Out of every nation."
Get it?
They brought the gospel to other nations.

Anyway for what it is worth I think both of us were wrong about your Zechariah passages.
I commented on them without even reading their context, and you put them into the future land of flexibility.
I think Zechariah speaks of many things in his own near future too.
 
"Out of every nation."
Get it?
They brought the gospel to other nations.

Anyway for what it is worth I think both of us were wrong about your Zechariah passages.
I commented on them without even reading their context, and you put them into the future land of flexibility.
I think Zechariah speaks of many things in his own near future too.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Jesus told us to go not tell those of other nations....go the example is like jonah...get it.
Jesus brings up the end of the age.....this is a on going preach and teaching commandment.
The nations we have today were not developed yet.


"Out of every nation."
Get it?
They brought the gospel to other nations.

Passover is observed every year....pilgrimage from all around came...Jesus could of saved the Apostles a trip to preach during such a time and not sent out his chosen. 🤔
 
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Jesus told us to go not tell those of other nations....go the example is like jonah...get it.
Jesus brings up the end of the age.....this is a on going preach and teaching commandment.
The nations we have today were not developed yet.


"Out of every nation."
Get it?
They brought the gospel to other nations.

Passover is observed every year....pilgrimage from all around came...Jesus could of saved the Apostles a trip to preach during such a time and not sent out his chosen. 🤔

But Jesus also sent the Apostles.
So what is your point?
 
No problem.

I like to look at what others have thought about a passage before making up my mind.

Putting the fulfillment into the future is easy, because it allows a lot of flexibility,
but if we find that an old prophesy has come to pass after it was spoken, that is a powerful testimony for the word of God.
I would think it a bad idea to brush it aside.
“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Keep reaching you'll hit your goal of embarrassment.
So your take is if I went to another country from the place I live I'm considered a nation? Really?
Act 2:5 says out of every nation not a nation. A little short handed on that reach.
Consider the contemporary

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If this is not the fulfillment of Abraham's covenant promises to the children of Jacob, then who has a better one to offer?

You can't build a kingdom with someone who still wants the attention of the village.
 
Consider the contemporary

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus says this to the 11 remaining disciples after He is risen.

Before the Aborigines of Australia heard the gospel the apostles were long dead.
The apostles did not disobey Jesus, they went as far as He enabled them.

When we read "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven" we do not have to assume that there were Jews living among the Aborigines.
Similarly, Mathew 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"
This verse does not force all the verses that follow it strictly into our future, especially as they match the destruction of Jerusalem and are concluded with v.34
" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

None the less, although the concept of "double fulfillment" can be wrongly applied to other passages without warrant, I consider that it is warranted here by the question that the disciples asked, i.e. v.3. "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Jesus mentions "the coming of the Son of Man" (v.27), and "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (v.30), yet how do we know that there was no such sign in the first century?
Then Jesus talks about Heaven and earth passing away, and of the coming of the Son of Man in vs. 35 to 39.
He speaks of these things as if they are one event in time.

The sequence of events I am understanding from this passage is not complicated.
Judgement for Jerusalem first, and judgement for the whole world still to come.
 
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Mathew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are standing in front of Him!
When will dispensationalists ever give us a reasonable explanation of this one?

The answer is not difficult.
John and others who survived past AD70 lived to see the new covenant kingdom of Jesus, which began with the fall of Jerusalem.
 
Mathew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are standing in front of Him!
When will dispensationalists ever give us a reasonable explanation of this one?

The answer is not difficult.
John and others who survived past AD70 lived to see the new covenant kingdom of Jesus, which began with the fall of Jerusalem.
Matthew 16:28 only sounds difficult if you assume “coming in His kingdom” must mean the final, global Second Coming, but Jesus Himself resolves the meaning six days later. The very next event in Matthew’s narrative is the Transfiguration, where Peter, James, and John literally see the Son of Man in unveiled glory, shining like the sun, with Moses and Elijah present, and with the Father’s voice declaring His royal identity. That is exactly what Jesus promised: some standing here (not all the disciples) would see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
 
In a war of ego the looser always wins.
You confuse ego with a breezy, ebullient confidence.

As for winning, that would depend on whose side the Truth is on.

As you can see, which side the Truth is on is not particularly confusing either.
 
Mathew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are standing in front of Him!
When will dispensationalists ever give us a reasonable explanation of this one?

The answer is not difficult.
John and others who survived past AD70 lived to see the new covenant kingdom of Jesus, which began with the fall of Jerusalem.
And here you go: the biblically literate and correct answer.... :sneaky:

The claim that Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 is not demanded by the text and is extremely difficult to sustain in context.

Matthew 16:28
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
The issue is not whether some disciples survived until AD 70. The question is:

What event does Matthew himself place immediately after this prediction?

The answer is the Transfiguration.

Jesus says that some standing there would see the Son of Man in His Kingdom glory. Then:

Matthew 17:1–2
“And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John... and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun...”
The prophecy is given.

Six days pass.

Jesus selects exactly three of those standing there.

They literally see Christ unveiled in supernatural royal glory.

That fits Matthew 16:28 remarkably well.

Matthew 16:28 and 17:1 belong together​

The modern chapter division can obscure the connection. Read them continuously:

“There be some standing here... till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John... and was transfigured before them.
Nothing in Matthew 16:28 mentions Jerusalem, Rome, Titus, the Temple's destruction, or a covenantal transfer in AD 70.

Instead, Matthew immediately gives us a visible manifestation of Christ's glory.

Peter himself explains the Transfiguration​

Peter later writes:

2 Peter 1:16–18
“We have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty... And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
Notice Peter's language:

“power and coming”
“eyewitnesses”
“majesty”
“honour and glory”


Peter explicitly associates the Transfiguration with the glory of Christ's coming.

The Transfiguration was therefore a preview or prophetic manifestation of the future Messianic Kingdom.

Peter does not point to AD 70.

He points to the holy mountain.

Mark and Luke make the connection equally clear​

Mark records:

Mark 9:1
“There be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”
Then immediately:

“And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John... and he was transfigured before them.”
Luke likewise says:

Luke 9:27
“There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.”
Then:

Luke 9:28
“And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James...”
Luke specifically links the timing of the Transfiguration to “these sayings.”

All three Synoptic Gospels therefore place the Transfiguration immediately after this prophecy.

That is powerful contextual evidence.

“Some standing here” favors the Transfiguration​

The objection is sometimes raised:

“Why would Jesus mention death if the fulfillment came only six days later?”
But Jesus did not say that only a few would survive.

He said some standing there would see the manifestation.

And exactly that occurs.

From the larger group Jesus selects:

Peter, James and John.

Those three see what the others do not.

The distinction is therefore between those who would see the vision and those who would not, not necessarily between those who would live and those who would die.

Matthew 16:27 gives the larger context​

The preceding verse is crucial:

Matthew 16:27
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
That is plainly eschatological.

Christ comes:

in the Father's glory,
with His angels,
and rewards every man.


That did not happen in AD 70.

There was no universal resurrection, no universal judgment, and no rewarding of every man according to his works.

Verse 28 therefore naturally means:

Some of you are about to receive an advance preview of that glory.

Six days later, they do.

Matthew 16:27 is the future reality.

Matthew 16:28–17:8 is the preview.

AD 70 does not resemble the promised Kingdom​

The preterist interpretation requires:

“the Son of man coming in his kingdom”

to mean:

Roman armies destroying Jerusalem.

But the Transfiguration actually contains the proper imagery:

Christ glorified.
Christ radiant.
Christ majestic.
Glorified saints present.
The Father authenticating the Son.
Disciples literally seeing Him.


Which event better satisfies:

“they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”?
The answer is evident from the narrative.

Furthermore, the OT Messianic Kingdom includes things that plainly did not begin in AD 70:

  • Messiah ruling from Zion — Isaiah 2:1–4; 11:1–10
  • Israel restored spiritually and nationally — Ezekiel 36–37
  • Jerusalem exalted, not destroyed — Zechariah 14
  • Worldwide knowledge of the LORD — Isaiah 11:9
  • Nations coming to Jerusalem to worship — Zechariah 14:16
  • Israel dwelling securely under Messiah — Ezekiel 37:21–28
AD 70 produced almost the exact opposite:

Jerusalem was devastated.

The Temple was destroyed.

Israel was dispersed.

Gentile domination continued.

Messiah did not visibly reign from Jerusalem.

The nations did not stream to Zion.

Worldwide peace did not begin.

Calling AD 70 the beginning of the promised Messianic Kingdom therefore reverses the prophetic picture.

Jesus Himself places Jerusalem's judgment before future restoration​

Jesus said:

Luke 21:24
“Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Jerusalem's destruction and subjugation therefore belong to a continuing period of Gentile domination, not the consummation of the Messianic Kingdom.

Likewise:

Matthew 23:39
“Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
There remains a future recognition of Messiah.

The contextual sequence is straightforward​

Matthew 16:27 — Christ describes His future glorious coming.

Matthew 16:28 — He promises that some standing there will see the Son of Man in Kingdom glory.

Matthew 17:1–2 — six days later Peter, James and John see Christ transfigured in supernatural majesty.

2 Peter 1:16–18 — Peter later describes that very event as an eyewitness revelation of Christ's “power and coming” and His “majesty.”

No forty-year leap to AD 70 is required.

No Roman army needs to become “the Son of Man.”

No destruction of Jerusalem needs to be renamed the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom.

The inspired narrative supplies the explanation six days later.

The Transfiguration was not the actual establishment of the Millennium. It was a proleptic preview of the glory of the future King and His Kingdom.

The preterist says:

“John lived until AD 70 and therefore saw Jesus come in His Kingdom.”
But Scripture never says that.

Scripture does explicitly record Peter, James and John seeing Christ manifested in royal glory immediately after Jesus made the promise.

And Peter later tells us what that experience represented:

“the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”

because they had been

“eyewitnesses of his majesty.”

That is not a dispensational escape hatch.

It is simply allowing Matthew 17 to explain Matthew 16:28, and allowing Peter himself to explain what he saw.
 
Matthew 16:28 only sounds difficult if you assume “coming in His kingdom” must mean the final, global Second Coming, but Jesus Himself resolves the meaning six days later. The very next event in Matthew’s narrative is the Transfiguration, where Peter, James, and John literally see the Son of Man in unveiled glory, shining like the sun, with Moses and Elijah present, and with the Father’s voice declaring His royal identity. That is exactly what Jesus promised: some standing here (not all the disciples) would see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

And what a glorious day that will be amen...
Let's add this so we can fully understand...

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

And this all happened when.....?.......call me a misguided futuristic what ever if you will but I gotta say I have a reason.
 
In summery, 2 sides debate:

1. See the Bible as a love letter between God and human.
2. See the Bible as a love letter between God and ethnic Israel.

Go figure.
 
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If this is not the fulfillment of Abraham's covenant promises to the children of Jacob, then who has a better one to offer?

You can't build a kingdom with someone who still wants the attention of the village.
Amen . Reminds me of Israel’s issue

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: ….,For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we ( the apostles ) use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7, 11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If a person sticks to only Israel’s covenant word the law and prophets it seems like there could never be anything else but the covenant made at Sinai the gospel and epistles are what makes the ot come clear and onto focus. Otherwise we’re flying blind
 
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When will dispensationalists ever give us a reasonable explanation of this one?

The answer is not difficult.
John and others who survived past AD70 lived to see the new covenant kingdom of Jesus, which began with the fall of Jerusalem.
Jesus says this to the 11 remaining disciples after He is risen.

Before the Aborigines of Australia heard the gospel the apostles were long dead.
The apostles did not disobey Jesus, they went as far as He enabled them.

When we read "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven" we do not have to assume that there were Jews living among the Aborigines.
Similarly, Mathew 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"
This verse does not force all the verses that follow it strictly into our future, especially as they match the destruction of Jerusalem and are concluded with v.34
" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

None the less, although the concept of "double fulfillment" can be wrongly applied to other passages without warrant, I consider that it is warranted here by the question that the disciples asked, i.e. v.3. "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Jesus mentions "the coming of the Son of Man" (v.27), and "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (v.30), yet how do we know that there was no such sign in the first century?
Then Jesus talks about Heaven and earth passing away, and of the coming of the Son of Man in vs. 35 to 39.
He speaks of these things as if they are one event in time.

The sequence of events I am understanding from this passage is not complicated.
Judgement for Jerusalem first, and judgement for the whole world still to come.


“Before the Aborigines of Australia heard the gospel the apostles were long dead.”

yes but my view is everytime someone picks up the new testsment they are hearing the witness of the apostles and Christ even today you and I hear thoer testinonies and witness of the gospel even Matthew is the witness of an apostle John ect

So literally until the end there will be the testimony of them who were chosen for this purpose

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those aboriginies did hear the witness of the apostles who began at Jerusalem yet “ somehow “ we still read thoer wotnesses andbhear them in churches ect

It’s still the same witnesses reaching the ends of the earth
 
both?
Ethnic Israel not part of human kind?
Whew. Nasty.
Of course they are. But they are FIRST.
So they are a subset of the greater set.

[Rom 1:16 KJV] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[Rom 2:10 KJV] 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
 
Mathew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are standing in front of Him!
When will dispensationalists ever give us a reasonable explanation of this one?

The answer is not difficult.
John and others who survived past AD70 lived to see the new covenant kingdom of Jesus, which began with the fall of Jerusalem.
Just think:
All that you had to do was literally flip the page to obtain the right answer.
But nope.

That is how heresies get started BTW. Sheer ignorance.