Hello. Would you care to answer a simple question:
Do you believe that the tribulation occurred 70AD?
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Do you believe that the tribulation occurred 70AD?
Choose any one you want. Make a list.
I have no reason to make a list, but here is a good one:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
If you are asking me about the one in Mathew 24:21 and 29, I have always said that the chapter deals with the destruction of Jerusalem AND the end of the world.
So No, it is not Daniel's 70th week, definitely not.
It IS the destruction of Jerusalem, and contains apocalyptic language used in the previous destruction of Jerusalem.
It is relevant to the end of the world yet in our future.
The thlipsis megalē of course. The tribulation characterized by the outpouring of God's wrath (orgē / thymos). Do you believe that this tribulation occurred 70AD?
The Time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7):
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."
The Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 12:1):
"...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered..."
The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21):
"For then shall be great (megalē) tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
Daniel 9:26 KJV
“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
Matthew 24:1-3 KJV
From the point of view of the people of the land to whom all those prophets including Jesus spoke?
Absolutely, 70 AD was the great tribulation for them.
For us it will come when it comes.
Reading the context of Daniel 9:24 to 27 has persuaded me to understand this prophesy as having a literal "70 week" (490 year) timeline.
As 70 AD falls outside that timeline I am compelled to consider that "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" is highly relevant information that reaches it's conclusion shortly after the 490 years are complete.
"And after threescore and two weeks", seeing that another 7 weeks are already accounted for in v.25, would mean AFTER 69 weeks, or during the 70th final week.
That is how it would work out if the beginning date is assumed to be the 7th month of 457 BC (Nehemiah 8:1-18).
The final week would begin in 27 AD, when John the Baptist began his ministry.
For dispensationalists this would be the year that their "church age" commercial break begins.
Jesus was crucified in 31AD and Steven was martyred 34 AD at the completion of the final week.
" He" in v.27 I understand to be a reference to the Messiah, not any Antichrist.
He confirms (completes) the new covenant, He causes the the sacrifice and oblation to cease by His death on the cross, and for the "overspreading" of sins of the people He shall make it desolate (Mat. 23:38).
"The desolate" are those who have not believed on Him, so the "consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon" them is the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem.
“Absolutely, 70 AD was the great tribulation for them.”
Yes chapters like Matthew 24 were mostly about preparing his disciples for what was about to happen in Jerusalem in thier generation and also the persecution they would face from the Jews and Roman’s exhibited throughout the book of acts. A lot of it is about 70 ad and the time leading up to it .
If there’s a great tribulation period at the end ….
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" is highly relevant information that reaches it's conclusion shortly after the 490 years are complete.“
have you ever noticed that Daniel has several visions that repetetively show the same events but add different details ?
what I mean to say is Daniel sees a vision of the statue with the golden head and it turns out it’s about four kingdoms about to rise up identifyong for us nebucadnezzar of Babylon as the first king and kingdom.
later he sees four beasts riding up with a total of seven heads and ten horns turns out these four beasts are four kingdoms that are about to rise up to power in succession one of which has four heads ……we get lord of details about the fourth beast and it’s ten horns ….
then he has a vision of a ram and a goat at war wherein the great single horn is broken off and four prominent horns replace it . Turns out it’s explained fornus a little later that it involves the kings of media and Persia and “king” of Greece the single prominent horn that’s broken off and four replace it . So we have another identification Alexander the Great of Greece conquered the region and later was killed and his four generals took power in his place over the empire ……later these four regions ruled by the four became the Roman Empire which ruled over Jerusalem at the time of Christ until Jerusalems destruction in ad 67-70 .
daniel is structured a lot like revelation wheras his visions are repetetive but add different details the story of those four kingdoms he repeatedly tells is also found in revelation in johns day just further along the timeline he sees a single beast with seven heads and ten horns with the same appearance of a bear and lion and leopard but he tells us that five of the heads ( kings ) of the beast had already fallen one was ruling in his time and one had not yet risen to power but would for a short time.
So the destruction of Jerusalem fits perfectly with all of it including what Jesus said in the gospel
That is a good question.
Jerusalem also existed in a form prior to 1948, as it does now.
Most of us here also have some sort of concept of "Heavenly Jerusalem" which we will be manifest after this present earth is destroyed.
I think that Mystery Babylon is old covenant Jerusalem, which cannot ever exist again because the old covenant is no more.
You’re missing the prophetic pattern God Himself established:
Scripture repeatedly destroys Jerusalem‑as‑apostate with “never again” language (Isa 1; Ezek 16; Ezek 23) and then restores Jerusalem‑as‑redeemed with glory language (Isa 2; Isa 40–66; Ezek 40–48). Zechariah 14 fits that exact pattern:
it describes the Day of the LORD when His feet stand on the Mount of Olives (v.4), living waters flow (v.8), and the LORD becomes king over all the earth (v.9).
That is Jerusalem restored after judgment, not Jerusalem instead of the New Jerusalem.
Revelation follows the same prophetic structure: the “great city” that kills the prophets (Rev 11:8; 18:24) is Jerusalem under judgment, and the exalted city is Jerusalem redeemed (Rev 21:2).
So your claim that Zechariah 14 “cannot” refer to the restored Jerusalem I described ignores the fact that the prophets themselves use covenant‑world language to distinguish the Jerusalem God destroys from the Jerusalem God restores.
This is where Revelation picks up where Daniel left off.
Revelation 17:9-11
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
I still think you need to reconsider your stance on a restored earthly Jerusalem vs the New Jerusalem/Heaven and here's why:
The New Jerusalem is distinct from the restored earthly Jerusalem primarily because it is a divine, celestial creation that descends from heaven to a new heaven and new earth, rather than being a renovation of the existing physical city. Biblical texts describe it as a perfect cube measuring 1,400 miles (12,000 stadia) in length, width, and height — a scale that dwarfs the entire planet and makes it physically impossible for the city to rest within the boundaries of the current Earth.
Key distinctions with supporting verses:
- Cosmic Origin: The New Jerusalem is described as the "bride, the wife of the Lamb" and the eternal dwelling place of God, representing the church triumphantor the redeemed people of God, rather than a geographic location in the Promised Land.
- Rev 21:2 – "I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
- Rev 3:12 – "The one who conquers… I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God… and I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
- Rev 21:10 – "And the angel showed me the great city, the holy city of Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."
- Rev 21:3 – "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."
- New Creation Context: It appears only after the first heaven and first earth have passed away and the sea is no more, indicating it belongs to a completely new cosmic order, not the restored old world.
- Rev 21:1 – "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more."
- Impossible Dimensions: The city is a perfect cube of 12,000 stadia (~1,400 miles) on every side — roughly the distance from New York to Dallas in each direction — making a literal earthly location impossible.
- Rev 21:16 – "The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal."
- Infinite Glory: The city requires no temple because God and the Lambare its temple, and it is illuminated by God's glory rather than the sun or moon — signifying a permanent, unmediated presence that transcends earthly physical laws.
- Rev 21:22 – "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb."
- Rev 21:23 – "And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb."
- Rev 21:24–25 – "By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there."
- Theological Symbolism: While some interpret the New Jerusalem as the restored earthly Jerusalem, the overwhelming consensus in Revelation portrays it as a heavenly reality that comes down to meet believers, serving as the capital of eternity rather than a terrestrial capital. The contrast is explicit: the earthly Jerusalem "never left the earth" (Isa 2:2–4; Zech 14:8–11 describe its restoration in place), whereas the New Jerusalem is repeatedly said to be "coming down out of heaven" — a distinction the text itself draws.
- Rev 21:1–2 (the whole sequence: new creation → city descends from heaven)
- Rev 21:4 – "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
The point you’re missing is simple:
Zechariah 14 is not describing the New Jerusalem at all; it is describing the earthly Jerusalem after the Day of the LORD,
where nations still exist, survivors still come up to worship (Zech 14:16),
rain can be withheld (v.17), and
plague can strike (v.12–15).
None of that can happen in the New Jerusalem,
where there is no death (Rev 21:4),
no night (21:25),
no temple (21:22), and
no sinners entering (21:27).
Your own verses prove your point about the New Jerusalem — but they also prove it cannot be Zechariah 14’s Jerusalem.
That's why I mentioned earlier that you need to read the New Testament (Revelation) in conjunction with the Old Testament (Zechariah).
The 1,000 year period (Revelation 20) on earth is the restored Jerusalem on earth.
After the 1,000 years of a restored Jerusalem are over on the earth, we see the transition of HEAVEN COMING DOWN TO EARTH to replace it.
You’re repeating the same mistake: you’re treating Revelation 20’s thousand years as the period described in Zechariah 14, but Scripture itself makes that impossible because Zechariah 14 contains conditions that cannot exist after the resurrection, after Satan is bound, and after death is abolished.
That's because it is. The 1,000 year period is the time of restoration, not a permanent heaven.
Here's how I answered it to Pilgrimshope in relation to:
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That verse should be broken up to relay different messages.
The current heavens and the earth, which are now, will be kept in store for the restoration of God's original people. Once that 1,000 year period is complete, it will be reserved for fire after everyone on it is judged and move on to their permanent locations.
@OMC, I forgot to add:
Zechariah 14 is describing what happens either right before or after Jesus returns and brings judgement and wrath upon the earth before the 1,000 years of restoration start on the earth.
Scripture never places Zechariah 14 inside a 1,000‑year period, never says the present heavens and earth will be “kept in store for restoration,” and never teaches a temporary restored‑Jerusalem era before the fire; 2 Peter 3:7 says the present heavens and earth are “reserved unto fire,” not “reserved unto restoration,” and Revelation 20’s millennium is the heavenly reign of the souls of the martyrs (Rev 20:4), not an earthly era with mortals, withheld rain, plague, and annual pilgrimages like Zech 14 describes.
Your interpretation rewrites the text: Zech 14 has mortals (v.16), sin (v.17), judgment (v.12–15), and weather (v.17); Rev 20’s millennium has resurrected saints (20:4–6) and no mention of mortal nations obeying feast‑laws; Rev 21–22 has no death, no night, no temple, no sinners, and no curse.
The sequence Scripture gives is fixed:
Day of the LORD → restored earthly Jerusalem (Zech 14) → final judgment (Rev 20:11–15) → destruction of the old creation (2 Pet 3:7,10) → new creation → New Jerusalem (Rev 21–22).
You are speaking from the futurist‑millennial framework — not from the prophetic pattern Scripture actually gives.