OSAS, When does salvation take place?

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Why yes, yes we can.
Hello again Scooter, I agree with you about believers being justified and saved by Him (as well as receiving eternal life from Him) on this side of the grave, and so does the Bible :)

The only rub that I can see in what you believe is this, how can we be justified/saved and granted eternal life if we have not yet been redeemed and forgiven (by the redemption that is found in Him/in His shed blood, that is, which is the basis for God's choice to forgive us of our sins and save us) :unsure:

(e.g. Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:17-19 cf Romans 3:23-25, Romans 5:9-10)


We can also lose our salvation while in this life as well.
Hmm, you initially said that true believers receive "eternal" life from Him on this side of the grave, but now you are saying something different, that true believers can lose their salvation, as well. If the latter is true (rather than the former), then it must not be "eternal" life (John 3:16; John 3:18) that is received from Him on this side of the grave, but "probationary" life instead, yes :unsure:

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy


John 5​
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has ~eternal life~, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​
.
 
We are saved when Jesus judges us as being saved. Jesus talks about "that day" in mat 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These people who call out "Lord, Lord clearly think they are saved, but Jesus says they are not. Which means salvation does not happen when we initiate it. Salvation is a decision that Only Christ can make. Your efforts/plan of salvation (EG the list of things you do to be saved: baptism, confession of faith and/or taking part in rites rituals or other sacraments) does not save you. Salvation is a work of Christ and only Christ is worthy of deciding who is and who is not saved.

No I am not saved. I am only a disciple, as are all of us. like all of His disciples we have a choice to make. To remain faithful to the end, or be like Judas (Another person whom by all accounts should have been saved as he did everything expected of him till the end when he faltered..)

Or do you think Judas will be saved when he stands before Christ in judgement, because of some oath or confession of faith he may have made?
So you’re going off on a tangent on the word “saved”. Have you done Roman’s 10:9-10?
 
We are saved when Jesus judges us as being saved. Jesus talks about "that day" in mat 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These people who call out "Lord, Lord clearly think they are saved, but Jesus says they are not. Which means salvation does not happen when we initiate it. Salvation is a decision that Only Christ can make. Your efforts/plan of salvation (EG the list of things you do to be saved: baptism, confession of faith and/or taking part in rites rituals or other sacraments) does not save you. Salvation is a work of Christ and only Christ is worthy of deciding who is and who is not saved.

No I am not saved. I am only a disciple, as are all of us. like all of His disciples we have a choice to make. To remain faithful to the end, or be like Judas (Another person whom by all accounts should have been saved as he did everything expected of him till the end when he faltered..)

Or do you think Judas will be saved when he stands before Christ in judgement, because of some oath or confession of faith he may have made?

I John 5

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The proper response to the gospel is Not:
-I made you Lord of my life!
-I preached in your name!
-I cast out devils!
-I did MANY WONDERFUL WORKS!

The proper response is that you believe (trust) in the Son of God.

Does that make more sense when looking at Jesus response to those appealing to Him on the basis of their works?
 
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We are saved when Jesus judges us as being saved. Jesus talks about "that day" in mat 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These people who call out "Lord, Lord clearly think they are saved, but Jesus says they are not. Which means salvation does not happen when we initiate it. Salvation is a decision that Only Christ can make. Your efforts/plan of salvation (EG the list of things you do to be saved: baptism, confession of faith and/or taking part in rites rituals or other sacraments) does not save you. Salvation is a work of Christ and only Christ is worthy of deciding who is and who is not saved.

No I am not saved. I am only a disciple, as are all of us. like all of His disciples we have a choice to make. To remain faithful to the end, or be like Judas (Another person whom by all accounts should have been saved as he did everything expected of him till the end when he faltered..)

Or do you think Judas will be saved when he stands before Christ in judgement, because of some oath or confession of faith he may have made?
I agree, scripture is clear, we are not saved untill jesus says so, we shall be judged according to his words, what is why we Must Follow Jesus and No one else, he made this clesr
 
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to everyone on this thread;

Are people saved now or later? Jesus and His disciples spoke of salvation in three tenses.


Scripture speaks of salvation in three tenses: past (we were saved), present (we are being saved), and future (we shall be saved). Much of the confusion comes from people grabbing one tense and ignoring the others. Some say it is all finished the moment you believe. Others say it is all still ahead. Jesus and the men who walked with Him taught all three, and each one needs the others.

You were saved. It begins the moment you believe.

Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). He did not say "will have." He said hath, and the words "is passed" describe something already done.

He kept saying it:
  • "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47).
  • "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
  • "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already" (John 3:18).
  • "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).
People who came to Him in faith were told it was already done. To the woman who washed His feet, He said, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Luke 7:50). Of Zacchaeus He said, "This day is salvation come to this house" (Luke 19:9), and then gave the reason: "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

Peter and John say the same. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life" (1 John 5:11-12). And John wrote so that nobody would have to guess: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

Who is this for? Everyone. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Jesus opened His ministry with, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15), and warned, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Peter said there is no other way: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

The Old Testament shows the same pattern. "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6). "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:22). "Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" (Joel 2:32). "The just shall live by his faith" (Habakkuk 2:4).

You are being saved. Salvation is a life you stay in.

This is the tense people skip. Jesus spoke to people who already believed and told them to continue. "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me" (John 15:4).

He was also honest about what happens to a branch that does not abide: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6). Then He showed how to stay: "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15), and "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love" (John 15:10).

He also said that words alone are not enough. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). His sheep are safe in His hand, but look at who they are: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27). They hear and they follow, in the present tense.

The apostles teach the same thing:
  • "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
  • "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (1 John 2:24-25).
  • "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).
  • "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 21).
  • "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" (James 1:21).
James says it in everyday terms. Faith that never shows up in how you live is not the real thing. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Works do not buy salvation. They are the proof that the faith is alive.

Walking away is a real danger. Peter warns, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Peter 2:20). The prophet said it long before: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity... all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned" (Ezekiel 18:24).

And there is a way back. "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (James 5:19-20).

God does not leave us to hold on alone. We are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5), and Jude speaks of Him "that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24). He keeps us, and we keep believing.

You shall be saved. The finish is still ahead.

Believing is the start, and the full deliverance comes at the end. "He that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22). Peter calls it "receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9).

Jesus tied the present and the future together in one sentence: "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). You have life now, and He will raise you up at the end.

John says the same: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). Look at the tenses. "Now are we" is already true, and "we shall be" is still coming.

The promises are for those who hold on:
  • "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
  • "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Revelation 3:5).
  • "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him" (James 1:12).
  • "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Peter 5:4).
Putting the three together

If you believe on Jesus, you were saved the moment you believed, and you have eternal life today. Jesus said, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life" (John 5:24). That is the past tense, and it is settled.

Stay in Him and keep following, because you are being saved every day. That is the present tense. Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).

Endure to the end, and you shall be saved when He comes. That is the future tense, and He promised, "I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

Hold on to only one of these and you end up either too sure of yourself or too afraid. Hold all three and you have both confidence and a reason to keep going. Jesus did not give us salvation to leave us guessing. He gave it so we could know where we stand, walk in it daily, and finish well.

So if you have believed, rest in what He has already done, stay close to Him today, and look forward to the day He returns. "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).
 
You argue Romans 13:11 proves believers are not yet saved.
But salvation has three tenses:
Past — justification
Present — sanctification
Future — glorification
Romans 13:11 refers to the future aspect, not the past.
Believers are already justified. They are awaiting glorification.
Amen! There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
 
I John 5

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The proper response to the gospel is Not:
-I made you Lord of my life!
-I preached in your name!
-I cast out devils!
-I did MANY WONDERFUL WORKS!

The proper response is that you believe (trust) in the Son of God.

Does that make more sense when looking at Jesus response to those appealing to Him on the basis of their works?

I do not think you understand the point I am making through the passage in mat 7 I have highlighted.

It is possible to believe and trust in Jesus and not be saved. These men who cry out to Jesus "Lord, Lord' and list out their miricles and accomplishments, fully believed and trust in Christ. And, still yet Jesus says away from me I NEVER knew you.
 
So you’re going off on a tangent on the word “saved”. Have you done Roman’s 10:9-10?
what do you mean tangent?

I'm saying we are not saved by our works/The moment that we perform this work.... Works that include confessions of faith, sinners prayers, baptisms, or any other right or ritual the church may have us do. We are not 'saved' till judgement.
 
Okay, well you
what do you mean tangent?

I'm saying we are not saved by our works/The moment that we perform this work.... Works that include confessions of faith, sinners prayers, baptisms, or any other right or ritual the church may have us do. We are not 'saved' till judgement.
Since you’re a little rigid on that word and can’t see it relating to anything but the final judgement (I guess), so let’s use the words “born again”. Have you been born again?
 
You were saved. It begins the moment you believe.
Quick question.

Did the men who call out to Jesus "Lord, Lord" in mat 7 Not believe?

Because from what I've read here in mat 7 not only did these men believe they had very strong faith in Christ as they where able to cast out demons in His name... Yet, He told them away from me I never knew you.

So then how can your interpretation of John 5 be correct if salvation is imparted the moment you simply acknowledge the deity of Christ?
 
Quick question.

Did the men who call out to Jesus "Lord, Lord" in mat 7 Not believe?

Because from what I've read here in mat 7 not only did these men believe they had very strong faith in Christ as they where able to cast out demons in His name... Yet, He told them away from me I never knew you.

So then how can your interpretation of John 5 be correct if salvation is imparted the moment you simply acknowledge the deity of Christ?
They were professing believers whose outward religious activity never reflected a genuine saving relationship with Him.
The key phrase is "I never knew you," not "I knew you once but then forgot you" or "I knew you until you sinned."
Jesus says there never was a saving relationship.
 
Quick question.

Did the men who call out to Jesus "Lord, Lord" in mat 7 Not believe?

Because from what I've read here in mat 7 not only did these men believe they had very strong faith in Christ as they where able to cast out demons in His name... Yet, He told them away from me I never knew you.

So then how can your interpretation of John 5 be correct if salvation is imparted the moment you simply acknowledge the deity of Christ?
They were not saved. Their boast was in their works; not Christ. There are plenty of people who associate themselves with Jesus and the church in the same way they might associate themselves to a local club or team. The relationship is superficial and outward, and not inward. These people never really know one another just as Christ never knew those in Matthew 7.
 
Okay, well you

Since you’re a little rigid on that word and can’t see it relating to anything but the final judgement (I guess), so let’s use the words “born again”. Have you been born again?
"born again" has become little more than a catch phrase the evegelicals typically use to prop up their various paths to salvation.

Maybe it would be easier for the both of us if you simply provided the definitions you are working from, rather than assuming everyone shares your understanding of salvation and or being born again.

For example. Being born again refers to the fact that we are born (Mind, Body/Soul, Spirit ) as one unified being. This unified being is born on satan's plantation as a slave to sin. Meaning Mind/Body and Soul Spirit all want to indulge in sin.

To be born again means to turn from (or Repent) from your Mind/Body's desire to serve and be in sin.

This separation of will, is your Soul/Spirit being 'recreated' as a separate person. AKA Being born again. Because you are a new person who seeks to serve the lord and not sin and satan. That said this body/Mind (what Paul refers to as the Flesh or the Old Man in sin) Has Majority control and will continue to sin (Romans 7 and 8) But if you are born again, and you separate your soul spirit from the want and will of the Mind and Body. Your Soul and Spirit will not be held accountable for the sin the 'flesh' indulges in.

That's why Jesus says we need to be born again. Because if we (Soul/Spirit) are unified with the want and will of the body then we (Soul/Spirit) are just as guilty, as the Mind/Body who wantonly indulges in sin.

So yes according to this I have turned from my sin and with all of my soul/spirit seek to love and serve God. Does this mean I am saved? No. Salvation does not happen till judgment. Because there is a life time between now and judgment to still yet live, I like Judas or those men in mat 7 who Cry out "Lord, Lord" could wander off of the path Jesus said we must all walk. (Love God/Love your neighbor) Meaning I might think I am 'born again,' but will not find out till Judgment.

Being Born again is not a gimmick/work that we do. it is a phrase that describes the reason we can be judged 'saved' by God. and why our sins can be forgiven even after we are told the wage of sin is death...
 
They were professing believers
The argument I am making is that John 5 states that who so ever believe shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
My argument is that it is possible to fully believe in Jesus, and yet not be saved.

"For even the demon believe and shudder."

Which you seem to be in agreement with.
 
They were not saved. Their boast was in their works; not Christ. There are plenty of people who associate themselves with Jesus and the church in the same way they might associate themselves to a local club or team. The relationship is superficial and outward, and not inward. These people never really know one another just as Christ never knew those in Matthew 7.
The argument I am making is that John 5 states that who so ever believe shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
My argument is that it is possible to fully believe in Jesus, and yet not be saved.

"For even the demon believe and shudder."

Which you seem to be in agreement with.
 
The argument I am making is that John 5 states that who so ever believe shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
My argument is that it is possible to fully believe in Jesus, and yet not be saved.

"For even the demon believe and shudder."

Which you seem to be in agreement with.
Then I think the burden is on you to define what you mean by "believe."

If by "believe" you mean merely acknowledging facts about Jesus, then I agree. Even demons believe certain facts about Him (James 2:19).

But John does not present saving faith as mere intellectual agreement. In John's Gospel, believing involves receiving Christ (John 1:12), coming to Him (John 6:35), and trusting in Him for life.
That's why John 5:24 says: "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Notice the present tense: has everlasting life and has passed from death unto life.
If a person can fully possess the kind of faith John is describing and yet not be saved, then John's argument becomes very difficult to sustain.
The real question is not whether someone can claim to believe and later fall away.
The real question is whether the faith they possessed was the saving faith John is talking about in the first place.
That is where the disagreement usually lies.
 
Did the men who call out to Jesus "Lord, Lord" in mat 7 Not believe?
The question is not that they didn’t believe. The question has always been WHAT did they believe, and what did they trust in for salvation.

They CERTAINLY believed Jesus existed, and did many miracles. Maybe they even believed in more about Him.

But what we DO know is that they never trusted in Him for their Salvation. They trusted in THEIR works, and THEIR law following.

“ Lord, Lord, did WE not do this, and did WE not do that….”

NONE of them said anything like, “Lord, Lord, did we not trust on YOU, and YOUR Sacrifice for the payment of our sin?”

The awful shame is many STILL trust in THEIR works and “ sinless behavior “ to attain or maintain salvation.
 
The argument I am making is that John 5 states that who so ever believe shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
My argument is that it is possible to fully believe in Jesus, and yet not be saved.

"For even the demon believe and shudder."

Which you seem to be in agreement with.
I'm saying the object of faith is important. Those in Matthew 7 trusted in their works rather than a relationship with Jesus.
 
I do not think you understand the point I am making through the passage in mat 7 I have highlighted.

It is possible to believe and trust in Jesus and not be saved. These men who cry out to Jesus "Lord, Lord' and list out their miricles and accomplishments, fully believed and trust in Christ. And, still yet Jesus says away from me I NEVER knew you.
Did they believe and trust in Jesus? It's doesn't say that. They listed of their works. They believed their works would save them. There are many in the world today and even here who believe that. They placed their belief and trust in themselves.