More about Israel.

[Churchgoer]

That's actually a good point, and I think it highlights why definitions matter.
Biblically speaking, Semite is a broader category than Jew.
A Jew is descended from Judah (or became part of the Jewish people), whereas "Semitic" traces back to Shem, one of Noah's sons.
If we're talking purely about ancestry, then yes, a great many people could trace their lineage back to Shem.
Abraham himself came from the line of Shem, but so did many other ancient peoples.
That's one reason I tend to be careful when people use terms like Jew, Israelite, Hebrew, and Semite interchangeably.
They're related terms, but they're not identical.
And honestly, I think that circles back to Paul's point in Galatians.
Whatever conclusions we reach about ethnicity, lineage, or national identity, the New Testament's emphasis shifts toward faith in Christ as the defining issue.
So while questions of ancestry can be historically interesting, I don't think they ultimately answer the spiritual question.
Paul can acknowledge Jewish ancestry and privileges in Romans 9, while also insisting that all stand on the same ground before God through Christ.
In other words, being a descendant of Shem, Abraham, Judah, or anyone else may tell us something about a person's history.
It doesn't settle their standing before God. That's where Christ becomes the dividing line.

That's the reason Jesus says unless one is born again, he will not see the kingdom of God.

Even in ot, many Israelites perished, not entering into heaven. Only few that have faith in YHVH enter into heaven. Ethnicity never saves anyone, not before, not now, not in future. Only Jesus saves, thank God.

 

[ThomasMatthew]

I think you're raising several important questions, but I'd probably separate them so we don't end up mixing distinct issues together.

First, yes, Jesus was a Jew.
He was descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David according to the flesh.
He lived under the Law and fulfilled it perfectly.

Second, Jesus certainly rebuked many of the religious leaders of His day.
But it's worth remembering that He wasn't condemning all Jews as an ethnic group.
His apostles were Jews.
The early church was overwhelmingly Jewish.
The first believers were Jews.

Third, I completely agree that being physically descended from Abraham was never enough.
John the Baptist said: "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" (Matt. 3:9).
Paul makes the same point in Galatians 3.
Those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed by faith and heirs according to the promise.

Where I become cautious is when discussions about modern Judaism move from theological disagreement to broad conclusions about an entire people group.
There are religious Jews, secular Jews, Orthodox Jews, Reform Jews, believing Jews, unbelieving Jews, and countless variations in between.

As for the phrase "God's chosen people," Scripture itself uses that language for Israel.
The debate is not whether God chose Israel, but how the promises to Israel relate to Christ, the church, and the new covenant.

On the temple issue, I understand your concern.
If Christ's sacrifice was once for all, then any future sacrificial system cannot add to or complete what He accomplished at the cross. Hebrews is very clear on that point.

Ultimately, I think Galatians 3:28-29 brings us back to the center: "There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Whatever conclusions we draw about Israel, the church, prophecy, or the end times, Christ remains the dividing line.
The fundamental question isn't, "Who can prove their ancestry?" It's: "What will you do with Jesus Christ?"
That's the question every Jew, Gentile, religious person, atheist, and Christian professor must ultimately answer.

Antisemite is a broad label, incorrectly applied, usually in place of a non-existent argument. An almost meaningless term anymore.
This is the world we live in today, when common sense or even disagreement is labeled hatred.
If Hitler had actually been running assembly line death camps I would have been as opposed to it then as I am opposed to the rape of Gaza now.

 

[Beekeeper]

The world is full of antisemitics, even courts. This is why the Bible says that the whole world will try to turn against Jerusalem AGAIN! That's why God/Jesus cuts down every nation that ever tried/tries to come up against it. Read your Bible.

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Well that puts you in a mental prison doesn't it?
Is it also blasphemous to question your teleported prophesy interpretations?

 

[Needevidence]

To answer your question, it depends on when or if God/Jesus chooses to reveal Himself to them so that they have understanding before they die. Trying to keep track of converts in Israel is almost impossible.

In my opinion, Jews are both a race and a religion. We know Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner is both Jewish by heritage and by faith and Trump's daughter, Ivanka, has converted to the faith. I shouldn't have used that as an example, but I couldn't think of any others right off of the top of my head, and it's the reason Trump uses Jared to communicate with Israel so often.

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No - it was clearly based on they die believing evil things about Jesus and being a false Messiah and he has not revealed himself to them - so how many will be saved?

Where and when was it say Judaism or Jew's is a name of a religion?

 

[Needevidence]

The world is full of antisemitics, even courts. This is why the Bible says that the whole world will try to turn against Jerusalem AGAIN! That's why God/Jesus cuts down every nation that ever tried/tries to come up against it. Read your Bible.

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Says Jerusalem not Jews or Israelites - before all this we have - Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a "priest of God Most High" (El Elyon)

 

[Revelation1v8]

Says Jerusalem not Jews or Israelites - before all this we have - Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a "priest of God Most High" (El Elyon)

Who do you think will be living in Jerusalem when Jesus returns. Read all of Zechariah, chapter 12. I don't know what point you're trying to make with your last statement.

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[Revelation1v8]

No - it was clearly based on they die believing evil things about Jesus and being a false Messiah and he has not revealed himself to them - so how many will be saved?

Where and when was it say Judaism or Jew's is a name of a religion?

You must not have understand what I was saying. In order for each one of us to come to know God/Jesus, God has to give us that knowledge first, just like Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16:17. The same goes for the Jews. Romans 11:25 says that they are temporarily blinded from truth until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Then Jesus will open their eyes and pour out his Spirit on them in Zechariah 13:1 when He returns.

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[Needevidence]

You must not have understand what I was saying. In order for each one of us to come to know God/Jesus, God has to give us that knowledge first, just like Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16:17. The same goes for the Jews. Romans 11:25 says that they are temporarily blinded from truth until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Then Jesus will open their eyes and pour out his Spirit on them in Zechariah 13:1 when He returns.

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Again you have not responded to a straight forward point - God doesn’t give the present Jews knowledge, they die blinded, before Jesus comes again and die not believing in the Messiah and think evil off him - are they saved?

Where and when was it say Judaism or Jew's is a name of a religion?

 

[Revelation1v8]

Again you have not responded to a straight forward point - God doesn’t give the present Jews knowledge, they die blinded, before Jesus comes again and die not believing in the Messiah and think evil off him - are they saved?

While a large portion of them will die blinded, God/Jesus still saves a remnant of them to start over again during the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20. You have to know you're Old Testament to know the details of what transpires during that time period. That's the problem. Too many Christians don't know what the Old Testament says or what Jesus meant in Luke 24:44.

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[ThereRoseaLamb]

If you can prove your claims before the whole world in a court of law I will listen.
What I posted are the findings of a court, not just some religiously driven person telling us what is what in a place that they know nothing about.

You better check again, some of your sources have been caught in lies.

 

[Needevidence]

While a large portion of them will die blinded, God/Jesus still saves a remnant of them to start over again during the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20. You have to know you're Old Testament to know the details of what transpires during that time period. That's the problem. Too many Christians don't know what the Old Testament says or what Jesus meant in Luke 24:44.

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you continue to avoid a straight forward Q - those Jews who are living today that die blinded - BEFORE Jesus returns will they be saved? its a simple Yes or No!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Their zeal for the nation of Israel is greater than their love for the people of Israel, the Israel of God.

Nope, not even close. Bible says pray for peace in Jerusalem and bless the Jews. That simple. I don't care what you think should be done. I follow what the Word says.

This is the poisonous fruit of dispensational theology

You're off the reservation again. It's not DT that spread Jew hate and led to the Holocaust, it's RT. and there's ample proof of it.

 

[Needevidence]

Nope, not even close. Bible says pray for peace in Jerusalem and bless the Jews. That simple. I don't care what you think should be done. I follow what the Word says.





You're off the reservation again. It's not DT that spread Jew hate and led to the Holocaust, it's RT. and there's ample proof of it.

Where does it say 'bless the Jews'?

 

[OMC]

Where does it say 'bless the Jews'?

It doesn't say that in those words.
The discussion usually comes from how people interpret God's promises to Abraham and Israel, not from a direct command that uses that phrase.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'm gonna regret this, but I'm feeling kinda salty this evening.

By all means, let us know who you are.

Do you have any idea how disgusting the Talmud is?

And there it is, the first trope on every Antisemitic website, and boy it didn't take long to get there.

Was Christ rejected by the Jews?
Do they reject Him now?

There's this Book, it's called the Bible and it told us the Jews would reject Christ, gasp!! And that they would then believe and be restored to their homeland never to be uprooted again!! You should read it, a real page turner.

Dispensationalists would build him a temple.

We aren't going to be here, we're going when the trumpet sounds.

God's chosen people.
What a powerfully divisive and deceptive term.

It is if you don't know what you're talking about. If my parent chooses to send me to the store instead of my sister is that divisive? Maybe they have a reason. Maybe because I'm older, more responsible. Does that mean I'm more loved or special than my sister? God chose the Jews, it's not up to you to question His purpose.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Where does it say 'bless the Jews'?

In the Bible.

 

[Revelation1v8]

It doesn't say that in those words.
The discussion usually comes from how people interpret God's promises to Abraham and Israel, not from a direct command that uses that phrase.

What's there to interpret? @Needevidence may want to review these Bible verses as well. The Bible shows that we are to have mercy on them like Jesus had for us when salvation first came through Jews and then to the Gentiles in Romans 11:30-32.

God’s Chosen Status: Scripture establishes the Jewish people as a special nation chosen by God, requiring recognition of this unique covenant relationship.

• Deuteronomy 7:6–8: God chose the Jews out of all peoples to be His own possession, not because they were numerous, but due to His love and oath to their ancestors.
• Zechariah 2:8: God describes the Jews as the "apple of His eye," indicating that harming them is akin to hurting His most precious possession.
• Jeremiah 31:35–36: God uses the immutable order of the heavens and sea as a guarantee that He will never reject the offspring of Israel as a nation.

Divine Protection and Blessing: The Bible commands respect for the Jewish people and warns against hostility toward them.

• Matthew 25:34–36: Jesus teaches that welcoming strangers and showing mercy to others is directly linked to inheriting the kingdom, implying care for His people.
• Matthew 23:37: Jesus expresses deep compassion and sorrow for Jerusalem, showing His protective love for the Jewish people despite their rejection of Him.
• Isaiah 43:1: God commands Jacob and Israel not to fear, affirming that He has redeemed them and called them by name, declaring them His own.

Mission Priority and Unity: The New Testament outlines a specific order for the gospel and emphasizes spiritual unity without partiality.

• Romans 1:16: The gospel is described as being for everyone who believes, but specifically first to the Jew, then to the Gentile, indicating a priority in ministry approach.
• Romans 10:12: There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in salvation, as the same Lord blesses all who call on Him.
• Romans 11:17–18: Gentile believers are warned not to be arrogant toward the Jewish branches, as they are grafted into the same root of God’s covenant promises.
• John 4:22: Jesus states that "salvation is from the Jews," acknowledging their central role in the history of redemption.

AGAIN, don't try to misunderstand what I am saying here. The whole point of this discussion is Israel's role in salvation. It absolutely does not mean that I hold them in higher regard than Gentile Christians. If it sounds that way, it's because the BIBLE WROTE IT THAT WAY.


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[Needevidence]

It doesn't say that in those words.
The discussion usually comes from how people interpret God's promises to Abraham and Israel, not from a direct command that uses that phrase.

In the Bible.

Where in the bible? - as you promote it so much you should have a quote to hand – I only ask for 1 quote!

 

[Needevidence]

What's there to interpret? @Needevidence may want to review these Bible verses as well. The Bible shows that we are to have mercy on them like Jesus had for us when salvation first came through Jews and then to the Gentiles in Romans 11:30-32.

God’s Chosen Status: Scripture establishes the Jewish people as a special nation chosen by God, requiring recognition of this unique covenant relationship.

• Deuteronomy 7:6–8: God chose the Jews out of all peoples to be His own possession, not because they were numerous, but due to His love and oath to their ancestors.
• Zechariah 2:8: God describes the Jews as the "apple of His eye," indicating that harming them is akin to hurting His most precious possession.
• Jeremiah 31:35–36: God uses the immutable order of the heavens and sea as a guarantee that He will never reject the offspring of Israel as a nation.

Divine Protection and Blessing: The Bible commands respect for the Jewish people and warns against hostility toward them.

• Matthew 25:34–36: Jesus teaches that welcoming strangers and showing mercy to others is directly linked to inheriting the kingdom, implying care for His people.
• Matthew 23:37: Jesus expresses deep compassion and sorrow for Jerusalem, showing His protective love for the Jewish people despite their rejection of Him.
• Isaiah 43:1: God commands Jacob and Israel not to fear, affirming that He has redeemed them and called them by name, declaring them His own.

Mission Priority and Unity: The New Testament outlines a specific order for the gospel and emphasizes spiritual unity without partiality.

• Romans 1:16: The gospel is described as being for everyone who believes, but specifically first to the Jew, then to the Gentile, indicating a priority in ministry approach.
• Romans 10:12: There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in salvation, as the same Lord blesses all who call on Him.
• Romans 11:17–18: Gentile believers are warned not to be arrogant toward the Jewish branches, as they are grafted into the same root of God’s covenant promises.
• John 4:22: Jesus states that "salvation is from the Jews," acknowledging their central role in the history of redemption.

AGAIN, don't try to misunderstand what I am saying here. The whole point of this discussion is Israel's role in salvation. It absolutely does not mean that I hold them in higher regard than Gentile Christians. If it sounds that way, it's because the BIBLE WROTE IT THAT WAY.


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And again you ignore a straight forward Q I asked about the blinded Jews of today - throw so much to muddy matters, but cant respond to a simple Q

 

[Revelation1v8]

you continue to avoid a straight forward Q - those Jews who are living today that die blinded - BEFORE Jesus returns will they be saved? its a simple Yes or No!

Clearly, you either missed or didn't pay attention to my answer. I'll repeat it again for you.

"While a large portion of them will die blinded, God/Jesus still saves a remnant of them to start over again."

So, in order to "refine" the remnant in Zechariah 13:8-9, they would have to be living at the time of Jesus' return. If they die beforehand, without knowing God/Jesus, they will be lost.

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