The Deadly Doctrines of Preterism

[TheAristocat]

Not contradictory at all.

Everything up to the 1000 year reference is near and soon. The 1000 year reference serves as a signal that hey ok this stuff here isn't near and soon.

The beginning of the 1000 was near and soon, but the 1000 years coming to completion isn't near and soon. Because well, 1000 years really isn't that near or soon.

Lol. I agree with you there. But how can we pick what prophecies in Revelation are to be "near" and "soon" if not all of them were? I think we have to go with what has been fulfilled, and people's interpretations of Revelation differ on that issue.

 

[1still_waters]

Lol. I agree with you there. But how can we pick what prophecies in Revelation are to be "near" and "soon" if not all of them were? I think we have to go with what has been fulfilled, and people's interpretations of Revelation differ on that issue.

Everything before the 1000 years was near/soon/at hand to them. The 1000 year reference served as a marker that the near/soon/at hand stuff didn't apply once the 1000 year reference began.

If I wrote a letter to you...

Dear Thearistocat,

Very soon I'm going to hit the enter comma key, then then the period key. Two months from now I'm going to hit the ENTER key 100 times in a row.

Sincerely me.

1stll_waters.

Now simply reading that letter you'd understand that the very soon only applied to my entering of the comma and period keys. You'd know that my repeated tapping of the enter key wasn't going to be very soon.

Why?

Because I qualified it with a two month reference.

How do we know the stuff after the 1000 year reference wasn't soon to the original readers of revelaton? Because the 1000 year reference served the same purpose as my two month reference.

 

[becausehedied]

because people are looking for a physical kingdom on earth and don't realize it's in us already until the 2nd resurrection Paul spoke about at the last trump which is a bodily resurrection.

every eye shall see Him on that day.

..but now not every is seeing Him (lack of spiritual discernment). But we see Him.

I do not doubt the kingdom in existence that this very moment.

 

[becausehedied]

Folks I know that this is overlooked but what purpose or meaning could Revelation had to those to whom John wrote, if it was not things that would take place shortly?

 

[becausehedied]

Also, how do you determine what to take literal and what to take figurative?

 

[tribesman]

... WHAT IS PRETERISM

...The preterists chiefly spiritualizes the scriptures, this is the core that is central to their teachings and the basis for interpretation. They advocate that many of the prophecies are already fulfilled, like the 1000 year reign of Christ and the emphasis is that we are already ruling with Christ on earth through the Spirit that has been given us, being the kingdom of God within.

From the book "Hope" Dr. David K. Bernard writes this observation on Preterism... Preterism is an interpretation of end-time prophecy. According to this, most, if not all passages of scripture that conservative Christians generally regard as end-time prophecies, including the book of Revelation, were fulfilled as of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. End quote.

You might want to inform the readers whom this David K. Bernard is. He is general superintendent in the modalist/oneness CULT called United Pentecostal Church (UPCI). A staunch proponent of the modalist/oneness heresy and fierce opponent of trinitarism. Just for the record, so that people know where your sources come from.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

The thousand years cannot be after the 2nd coming of Christ according to the parable of the wheat and the weed.

that is one reason i have a hard time fitting a millennium anywhere into jesus' end time teaching...

 

[1still_waters]

that is one reason i have a hard time fitting a millennium anywhere into jesus' end time teaching...

It's really not that hard.

The Olivet discource ie matt 24 is about the end of the age, not the end of the world.

The age being the Jewish age and the beginning of the Messianic age.

With the destruction of the temple system it was 100% clear that the old age of sacrifices was over.


Many people interpret Matt 24 as the end of the world and not the end of the age because of this...

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Coming on the clouds is Bible speak for God showing up to judge. He did just that in AD70.

The angels being sent out to gather the elect is thought by many to be angels snatching people up to heaven. But that greek word can also be translated messengers.

So it could read 'and he will send his messengers with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from oen en of the heavens to the other."

With the Jewish persecution hindered, the Christians had a clearer path to going out and preaching the gospel! His messengers are preachers of the gospel who preach. THe gathering is those preachers going out, preaching and gathering in those who believe.

Also notice the trumpet reference. That fits in nicely with the festivals you mentioned somewhere else.

So Mattheew 24 is about the judging of Jerusalem, ending of the age and the preaching of the gospel as it gathers in God's elect.

I believe this was the beginning of the 1000 years. Christ reigning in heaven with the tribulation saints who died during the persecution, as the gospel is advancing on the Earth!

The second coming aka end of the world doesn't come until Revelation 20:7 and onward.

The end of the world doesn't conflict with Matthew 24, because Matt 24 isn't about the end of the world!

 

[AnandaHya]

I'll give a little testimony here.

Getting saved is the most important thing in this walk of grace, love and faith with God.

I view my knowledge of the preterist interpretation of the end times as something very important too.

Eschatology used to be cloudy, confusing and terrifying to me. It made no sense because I always read the Bible through the eyes of the latest newspaper. Interpreting current events in to scripture. Always hearing that the latest happening in the news was for sure a fulfillment of some prophecy in the Bible.

After a while I noticed something. As the news changed, so did the speculations on what was being fulfilled! Talk about confusing. What was a fulfillment of a prophecy in say 1999 wasn't once say 2003 came around and we got new headlines and new political realities.

Seeing the constant speculation, and reading of current events in to the Bible and seeing the constant failure of those speculations didn't give me the peace that the scriptures on the end times are supposed to give. Instead those scriptures just gave me more confusion, because things seemed to change every few years. And I think if people held themselves accountable and were intellectually honest, they'd acknowledge the same thing too.

So I went off on a study of alternative (ie different than the popular system we see in the Left Behind books) interpretations of eschatology.

When I came across preterism, wow, things started making sense! No more endless speculations based on changing headlines.

All I know is that for the first time in my life, the issue of eschatology made sense and actually gave me a deeper peace on things.

I share this because so often i/we can get bogged down in the scripture swappin as we try to show our interpretation is right. And there is a place for that.

But I wanted to take a few minutes and get beyond the scripture swapping and debating, to show how this has practically helped my walk with God.

amen to that.

but stilly don't you like the pretty sparks?

anyways I just wanted to interject some scriptures that people seem to forget all to often...

Matthew 6:33-34
New King James Version (NKJV)
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

 

[cronjecj]

It's really not that hard.

The Olivet discource ie matt 24 is about the end of the age, not the end of the world.

The age being the Jewish age and the beginning of the Messianic age.

With the destruction of the temple system it was 100% clear that the old age of sacrifices was over.


Many people interpret Matt 24 as the end of the world and not the end of the age because of this...

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Coming on the clouds is Bible speak for God showing up to judge. He did just that in AD70.

The angels being sent out to gather the elect is thought by many to be angels snatching people up to heaven. But that greek word can also be translated messengers.

So it could read 'and he will send his messengers with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from oen en of the heavens to the other."

With the Jewish persecution hindered, the Christians had a clearer path to going out and preaching the gospel! His messengers are preachers of the gospel who preach. THe gathering is those preachers going out, preaching and gathering in those who believe.

Also notice the trumpet reference. That fits in nicely with the festivals you mentioned somewhere else.

So Mattheew 24 is about the judging of Jerusalem, ending of the age and the preaching of the gospel as it gathers in God's elect.

I believe this was the beginning of the 1000 years. Christ reigning in heaven with the tribulation saints who died during the persecution, as the gospel is advancing on the Earth!

The second coming aka end of the world doesn't come until Revelation 20:7 and onward.

The end of the world doesn't conflict with Matthew 24, because Matt 24 isn't about the end of the world!

Matthew 24:30-31 cannot be fulfilled.
Did Jesus come back in AD70?

According to the parable, the end
comes when the Son of man appears
with power and glory, like lightning shineth
from the east even unto the west.

Then the great white throne judgment.

It will be devastating.

End of the world \ age same thing?

i think the NIV uses end of age
whereas the KJV uses end of the world.

 

[AnandaHya]

Matthew 24:30-31 cannot be fulfilled.
Did Jesus come back in AD70?

According to the parable, the end
comes when the Son of man appears
with power and glory, like lightning shineth
from the east even unto the west.

Then the great white throne judgment.

It will be devastating.

End of the world \ age same thing?

i think the NIV uses end of age
whereas the KJV uses end of the world.

you're mixing scriptures. the end of the age is marked by the establishment of the NEW Covenant by Jesus, its not the same thing as the end of the world or the Second coming or the white throne judgement.

now when does Jesus touch foot on Earth in these scriptures?

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

also we have this:

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

 

[prophecyman]

You might want to inform the readers whom this David K. Bernard is. He is general superintendent in the modalist/oneness CULT called United Pentecostal Church (UPCI). A staunch proponent of the modalist/oneness heresy and fierce opponent of trinitarism. Just for the record, so that people know where your sources come from.

What right do you have to call my people a cult? When those proponents of the Trinity can not even find the word in their bibles. They can not find the phrase "God in three Persons". We preach that God (Father) dwelt (Lived) in the Son.

John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. ...

In this sense they are one, For the Son of God is the express image of the Father. John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

We baptize in the salvation name of Jesus alone, we understand that the Apostles clearly understood the great commission well. Peter told three thousand Jews (After they asked "Men and brothers what shall we do") Then Peter said to them: Repent and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit).

I do not believe that he said to those Jews gathered out of every Nation after the manner of these words: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, turn from sin, and accept him into your heart. Accepting Jesus into your heart can not even be found in the bible, let alone that many teach this to be the means of being saved. This same Peter preached this message to the Gentiles, for consider the passages of scripture:
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Acts 10:43-48

King James Version (KJV)



43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

He commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord, baptism in water was not an option nor was it just an outward sign or work, showing obedience. Those who teach that it is NOT required to be baptized, are clean contrary to the doctrine (teaching) of Jesus. For he commanded them to teach ALL Nations baptizing in the Name.

Did the Apostles understand the command or not? Did not the Master say: Teaching them to obseve all things whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. Is not baptism a commandment of Christ, yes or no? Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Cross references:

1. Acts 8:12 : Acts 16:33, 34; 18:8; Mark 16:16
2. Acts 8:12 : Acts 1:3

Paul taught baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, for consider this passage.
Acts 19:5

King James Version (KJV)


5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Yes we truly preach the gospel. But I find it strange why people resist what Jesus commanded and what his Apostles commanded. No my friend we are not a cult, we support and promote the name of Jesus like no other.

Have you been baptized in the Name of Jesus, if you were baptized in was in the titles of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name, But Jesus said I am come in my Fathers Name. Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Please do not comment to dispute these valid scriptures of truth, less you find yourself fighting against the Name of Jesus. If they of the early Church baptized in the Name of Jesus, then show me where they baptized any convert into the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost, go ahead show me the scripture!

You will not find the term TRIUNE GOD, nor will you find God in three Persons, You will not find the word Trinity, but what you find is that God was in Christ.

Titus 2:10 not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God ... that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

Hey friend, I thought Jesus was our savior, so the Father is the Savior, the Son is the Savior, the Holy Spirit is the Savior, is there three Saviors? NO THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD, ONE GOD, ONE SAVIOR, ONE FAITH. Read
Ephesians 4:4-6

New International Version (NIV)

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

This case is closed.

 

[prophecyman]

Please ignor the copied portion that does not apply, I don't know it happen, but continue where I record the scripture. I often cut and paste the scriptures because it saves time.

 

[1still_waters]

Matthew 24:30-31 cannot be fulfilled.
Did Jesus come back in AD70?

According to the parable, the end
comes when the Son of man appears
with power and glory, like lightning shineth
from the east even unto the west.

Then the great white throne judgment.

It will be devastating.

End of the world \ age same thing?

i think the NIV uses end of age
whereas the KJV uses end of the world.

No end of the world is not the same as end of the age.

Age=age

world =world

An age is like an extended period of time...

Titus 1:2

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,


Hebrews 6:5

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

He appeared in judgement in ad70, ending the age of the law and bringing in the age of Messiah.

The end of the world is described in Revelation 20:7 and after.

 

[cronjecj]

No end of the world is not the same as end of the age.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I
have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always,
even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:20 (KJV)

Teaching them to obey everything I
have commanded you. And surely I am with you always,
to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:20 (NIV)

..according to some versions they have translated
the word "world" to "age".

The translators seems to think it's the same.

 

[1still_waters]

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I
have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always,
even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:20 (KJV)

Teaching them to obey everything I
have commanded you. And surely I am with you always,
to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:20 (NIV)

..according to some versions they have translated
the word "world" to "age".

The translators seems to think it's the same.

Honestly I don't waste my time debating with people who think the KJV is the standard to judge all translations by.

nasb, esv also translate matt 28:20 as age, not world.

 

[cronjecj]

Honestly I don't waste my time debating with people who think the KJV is the standard to judge all translations by.

nasb, esv also translate matt 28:20 as age, not world.

ok the KJV is wrong then still waters.

i would like to discuss it either way.
im doing a research on it now.

 

[1still_waters]

Matthew 24 and 28 uses the word aion not kosmos.

If the end of the world was meant, then they would have used kosmos, not aion.

 

[cronjecj]

aion = age

kosmos = world

Lets say the word aion was meant and not
kosmos then according to
Matthew 28:20 (NKJV) (NIV) (NASB) (ESV)
that says "I am with you always, to the
very end of the age.”

..that Jesus is only with us temporary
until the age passes by and not the world?

i don't think Jesus meant age then,
because He is with us always until the
very end.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

It's really not that hard.

The Olivet discource ie matt 24 is about the end of the age, not the end of the world.

The age being the Jewish age and the beginning of the Messianic age.

With the destruction of the temple system it was 100% clear that the old age of sacrifices was over.


Many people interpret Matt 24 as the end of the world and not the end of the age because of this...

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Coming on the clouds is Bible speak for God showing up to judge. He did just that in AD70.

The angels being sent out to gather the elect is thought by many to be angels snatching people up to heaven. But that greek word can also be translated messengers.

So it could read 'and he will send his messengers with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from oen en of the heavens to the other."

With the Jewish persecution hindered, the Christians had a clearer path to going out and preaching the gospel! His messengers are preachers of the gospel who preach. THe gathering is those preachers going out, preaching and gathering in those who believe.

Also notice the trumpet reference. That fits in nicely with the festivals you mentioned somewhere else.

So Mattheew 24 is about the judging of Jerusalem, ending of the age and the preaching of the gospel as it gathers in God's elect.

I believe this was the beginning of the 1000 years. Christ reigning in heaven with the tribulation saints who died during the persecution, as the gospel is advancing on the Earth!

The second coming aka end of the world doesn't come until Revelation 20:7 and onward.

The end of the world doesn't conflict with Matthew 24, because Matt 24 isn't about the end of the world!

i have a few problems with this interpretation...

first of all i think the 'end of the age' -does- mean the end of the world as we know it...our age will end with fire just like noah's age ended with the flood...

i don't think jesus 'showed up' again in AD 70...his second coming has not happened yet... you could try to argue that this wouldn't count as his second coming because his feet didn't actually touch the ground...but that is basically the same excuse rapture proponents make for why jesus coming to rapture the church doesn't count as his second coming...

elsewhere in the bible it says we will meet jesus in the clouds when he comes...that didn't happen in AD 70...

you could say that the angels are messengers gathering the elect with the gospel...but the parable of the wheat and tares also depicts the end of the age...and in that parable the angels are not only gathering the wheat in the barn but also burning up the tares in the furnace... and we all know that AD 70 was not the end of all evildoers...

finally persecution did not end in AD 70...there were nine more persecutions until christianity was finally legalized by the roman emperor...and compared to the jewish persecution the roman persecutions were much -much- worse