The covenant of Daniel 9 :27

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
“And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the
consummation, and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate”
It must be noted that the prince is still the subject. It is the prince who makes Jerusalem
desolate. but as we saw in Jeremiah, God destroyed Jerusalem by the peoples choice.
We are now told what would happen as a result of the death of the Messiah: Jerusalem
was to be destroyed. The word “overspreading” is often translated “wings” in the Old
Testament. It is used, for example, to describe the invasion of Assyria into Israel (Isaiah
8:7-8). The picture is of a river which is at flood stage. When the river goes over its banks, it
spreads out its wings (see also, Nahum 1:8).

The word “abominations” here merits special attention because of its connection with
Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20. In Matthew 24:15-16 Jesus warned His disciples: “When ye
therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in
Judaea flee to the mountains. . . .” Extremely important here is the appeal Jesus made to
the prophecy of Daniel 9:26-27. He explicitly tells us that the abomination of desolation
was spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

And what was this abomination of desolation? First let’s talk about the abomination. When the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem, they put their standards into the ground and worshiped them. The Roman standards had an eagle surrounded by a golden wreath.
Under the eagle and the wreath was a solar disk, which represented the sun-god Mithra.
Says Josephus about the order in which the Roman armies marched:
32

“Then came the ensigns encompassing the eagle, which is at the head of
every Roman legion, the king and the strongest of birds, which seems to
them a signal of domination, and an omen that they shall conquer all against
whom they march.” (Wars of the Jews, 3:6:2)

But what about the desolation? It is noteworthy that Daniel 9:27 employs the word
“desolate” two times. Jesus picked up on this when he said to the Jewish leaders as He left the temple: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23:38). Luke 21:20 explains that the abomination was an omen that the desolation of Jerusalem was near. In other words, the best translation of Matthew 24:15 is: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination which maketh desolate.” That is to say, the abominable standards of the Romans were a sign that the desolation of Jerusalem was at the doors.
As we compare Daniel 9:25-27 with the Gospels we can reach the following conclusions:

1. The abomination of desolation of Daniel 9:25-27 represents the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in the year 70 A. D. This can be seen by the similarity in terminology between the Gospels and Daniel 9:26-27 (Matthew 23:28; Luke 21:20 compared with Matthew 24:15).

2. The reason for the destruction of Jerusalem was the rejection of the Messiah by the Jewish nation. This is true in Daniel 9:26-27 where twice the destruction of Jerusalem is spoken of as coming after the death of the Messiah. It is also true in Luke 19:41-44 (as well as other passages) where the destruction of Jerusalem is linked with the rejection of Jesus.

The expression “until the consummation” means “until the full end”. We have already found this word once before in verse 26. The root meaning of the Hebrew word kala (“consummation”) means “to bring a process to completion” or “to finish a process.” This means that when Jerusalem was destroyed, God was finished with the Jewish theocracy. Coupled with this idea of consummation is the expression “poured out.” The question is, What was poured out upon the desolate until the end?
The answer is, the wrath of God.

One cannot help but think of the analogous events of the book of Revelation. There, we are told that because of the iniquity in the world in the last days, God will pour out seven last plagues for in them the wrath of God is filled up. The expression “filled up” could very well be translated “consummated” or “complete.” In fact the Reina-Valera Spanish version uses the word “consumada.” Significantly, as soon as all the cups have been poured out, the words are heard from the heavenly temple, “It is done.” (Revelation 15:1; 17:17). Putting all these concepts together we have: The cup of the iniquity of the wicked will be filled to the brim (see Genesis 15:16)and then God will pour out upon them the plagues and these will bring to an end the wrath of God.

Noteworthy is the fact that in his indictment of the Jewish leaders, Jesus employed the symbolism of the cup: “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.” (Matthew 23:32). In other words, there was no longer any room for mercy. When God poured out His wrath upon them He was finished with them. they drank the dregs of the wrath of God. For this reason the apostle Paul says that the wrath of God had fallen upon the Jews “to the uttermost.” (I Thessalonians 2:16).

At the end of verse 27 we find once again that this outpouring of the unmitigated wrath of God had already been determined beforehand. This is clearly indicated by the expression: “that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.” This is clear evidence that even though the city and temple were destroyed in the year 70 A. D., the sentence had already been determined previously, in the year 34 A. D. It is common in the Bible for the door of mercy to close sometime before destruction falls. Two monumental examples are: The flood where the door of mercy closed seven days before the destruction of the world and the end of the world when the door of probation will close before the Second coming (Revelation 22:11-12).
Again. I can not agree.

1. The prince confirms a covenant for 7 years. What covenant did Titus father make 3 1/2 years before the destruction? Even if you say titus was the prince, what covenant did he confirm? and then break 3 1/2 years later by abominating the inner sancuary of the temple?
2. The sequence of events are that the destruction. then the covenant, then the abomination. He did not say they would happen at the same time.
3. Lookin at jesus words.



15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

What tribulation followed the destruction of Jerusalem that was never witnessed before. and will never be again? Come on now. WW1 and WW 2 was the greatest tribulation this would has ever seen. 70 AD paled in comparison. and you want me to believe that was the tribulation to end all tribulations. Not to mention. Jesus makes it clear. If he did not return to end it. All flesh would have ceased to exist. This was not possible until the advent of nuclear weapons.

also. The prince who makes confirms the covenant commits the abomination. If Christ confimed the covenant. how did he commit the abomination?

The abomination of desolation is a jewish term. it means someone has entered the holy of holies and desecrated the inner sanctum. It was done by antichos epiphanies when he slaughterd a pig (considered unclean by jews) in the inner sanctuary.

Everything you said sounds good laodecia. If I really wanted to believe what you are saying. I might even be convinced. But I must look at the word as a whole. And make it agree with everything it says. And I can't with an open mind and heart take what you are saying and make it agree with What Gabriel told daniel. or what Christ said concerning it.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
[FONT=&quot]The prophecy of the 70 weeks appears to be, in a literary sense, a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]disorganized mumbo jumbo. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Says who? It is only made into a disorganized mumbo jumble when people take things out of sequence to make their beliefs come true.

Who is demanding, or even saying Gabriel did not prophesy sequences as they would happen? What other prophesy was done this way> Were any of daniels prophesies done out of sequence. but garbled? why would we want to make this one be?

It is funny how ammilenialist doctrine demands prophesy of years not be taken literally. and that this one prophesy not be taken sequentially. even though all prophesies concerning time and events are done in order. and in literal years.

It should make people think!
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#63
Nice study. But I have a few problems.

1 Daniel 8 is a continuation of Daniel 7. and is the prophesy concerning the future history of man. It is a much deeper vision of what happened earlier in daniel, where a not so indepth vision had occured.
2. Daniel 9 is daniel remembering jeremiah's prophesy of 70 years according to leviticus 26. He even mentions the law of moses in his prayer. It is not related in any way to daniel 8
3. Daniel 8 speaks of the end of all things, Daniel 9 is daniel praying for his city and his people, who were in sin, and being punished according to lev 26. He was speaking not of future, but of present things.

.
I agree that he was speaking of present things. but that was because he thought the prophecy of Daniel 8 was concerning his time. that is clear from his prayer as shown above. that is Why Gabriel is sent to show him his error. that this time stretched to a future event outside of Daniels time.

Two things are very clear, Daniel misunderstood the prophecy and applied it to his time and then Gabriel showed him that it was in fact future beyond his time.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#64
Wow...talk about a view that hinders. EG I love you and know God loves you....but
i feel bad that the coolest thing about the plan of God and fulfillment of it is so
impossible for you to see.....this is just like David...the disciples(Lord will you now restore
the kingdom of...., and apparently many in the church.....this land/nation thing. Gods past
you bro this is worldwide now. People in the past was only for the linage and the message.
It has happened and going on now and youve been shown enough to see it. blessings :)
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#65
Again. I can not agree.

1. The prince confirms a covenant for 7 years. What covenant did Titus father make 3 1/2 years before the destruction? Even if you say titus was the prince, what covenant did he confirm? and then break 3 1/2 years later by abominating the inner sancuary of the temple?
2. The sequence of events are that the destruction. then the covenant, then the abomination. He did not say they would happen at the same time.
3. Lookin at jesus words.



15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

What tribulation followed the destruction of Jerusalem that was never witnessed before. and will never be again? Come on now. WW1 and WW 2 was the greatest tribulation this would has ever seen. 70 AD paled in comparison. and you want me to believe that was the tribulation to end all tribulations. Not to mention. Jesus makes it clear. If he did not return to end it. All flesh would have ceased to exist. This was not possible until the advent of nuclear weapons.

also. The prince who makes confirms the covenant commits the abomination. If Christ confimed the covenant. how did he commit the abomination?

The abomination of desolation is a jewish term. it means someone has entered the holy of holies and desecrated the inner sanctum. It was done by antichos epiphanies when he slaughterd a pig (considered unclean by jews) in the inner sanctuary.

Everything you said sounds good laodecia. If I really wanted to believe what you are saying. I might even be convinced. But I must look at the word as a whole. And make it agree with everything it says. And I can't with an open mind and heart take what you are saying and make it agree with What Gabriel told daniel. or what Christ said concerning it.
As I mentioned before there is no mention in Daniel 9 about a covenant being made only confirmed. If you read Daniel 7 & 8 both chapters are not in chronological order within the chapter it goes over the same ground twice so it is done in Daniel as well as Revelation
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
I agree that he was speaking of present things. but that was because he thought the prophecy of Daniel 8 was concerning his time. that is clear from his prayer as shown above. that is Why Gabriel is sent to show him his error. that this time stretched to a future event outside of Daniels time.

Two things are very clear, Daniel misunderstood the prophecy and applied it to his time and then Gabriel showed him that it was in fact future beyond his time.
Where do you get that Gabriel was sent to show him his error? he was sent because "daniel is beloved" and he was sent to give Daniel and answer to his supplication prayer.

The vision in Chapter 8 was given long before chapter 9 even started.

Daniel was remembering the law of moses, and the prophesy of jeremiah concerning the babylonian captivity. Not chapter 8

Daniel was praying for HIS PEOPLE, HIS CITY and the TEMPLE. And the end of the prophetic time of babylonian captivity. And the fact his people had not yet repented, even thought they were being punished according to prophesy.

I don't see the connection you are trying to make my friend. sorry.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
Wow...talk about a view that hinders. EG I love you and know God loves you....but
i feel bad that the coolest thing about the plan of God and fulfillment of it is so
impossible for you to see.....this is just like David...the disciples(Lord will you now restore
the kingdom of...., and apparently many in the church.....this land/nation thing. Gods past
you bro this is worldwide now. People in the past was only for the linage and the message.
It has happened and going on now and youve been shown enough to see it. blessings :)
I love you too abiding. And I agree, The coolest thing About Gods plan is the fulfillment. You think it is in the past and thats fine. I don't, and it is not because I want to disagree, or fight, but because I just can't with an open mind read daniel 9 and see things as happened. Not only do I see tham as "not happened yet" But I see things today which point to them happening in the near future. You see, you see a time past. I see a present time which we are living in as glorious and scary at the same time. I see prophesy unfolding as I speak.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#68
As I mentioned before there is no mention in Daniel 9 about a covenant being made only confirmed. If you read Daniel 7 & 8 both chapters are not in chronological order within the chapter it goes over the same ground twice so it is done in Daniel as well as Revelation
And if you would have read what I posted. I TOO said he did not make it, he confirmed it.

also. The prince who makes confirms the covenant commits the abomination. If Christ confimed the covenant. how did he commit the abomination?
I did see I made a typo by putting make in before confirm. My mistake. But I also said earlier and explained this.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

The prince of the people who destroy the city will CONFIRM some covenant which is in effect. It is important to look at the wording

1. The prince does not make the covenant, he CONFIRMS, Or allows it to continue.
2. We see this today. WHen a new leader takes office. He has the ability to "confirm and agreement of a previous leader. Or to make a new one.
3. This shows that a new leader takes power, and confirms some existing covenant (agreement, or using modern day term, a treaty) which was given to many people, not just Israel.
4. This agreement at one time must have allowed for a temple to be rebuilt. Because at this time, sacrifice and offereng are being made in this temple.

5. Israel, as we speak, are doing all they can to rebuild this temple. They have all the furniture and decorations which are supposed to be in it, including the priestly garments which are made and ready to be used when this temple is rebuilt.
6. The only thing holding them back is some agreement which would allow Israel to do this without backlash from her enemies in the middle east. Especially since the "Holy of Holies" should be situated where the Dome of the Rock sits. For Israel to rebuild this temple. they must have some sort of protection to do this. In other words. some peace treat and offer of protection must be made by a power strong enough and capable enough to protect them from backlash from the Muslim armies which would surely do everything they can to destroy Israel and this temple.

7. Even though Israel is still in sin, Still reject Christ (as proven by their return to sacrifice) God allows them to do it anyway. Why? We are still in the 70 weeks. God is having mercy.
8. This agreement is supposed to be for 7 years, and also marks the restoration of the 70 week time period CONCERNING DANIELS CITY, SANCTUARY, AND PEOPLE.
so I am not sure what your trying to say my friend!
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#69
Where do you get that Gabriel was sent to show him his error? he was sent because "daniel is beloved" and he was sent to give Daniel and answer to his supplication prayer.

The vision in Chapter 8 was given long before chapter 9 even started.

Daniel was remembering the law of moses, and the prophesy of jeremiah concerning the babylonian captivity. Not chapter 8

Daniel was praying for HIS PEOPLE, HIS CITY and the TEMPLE. And the end of the prophetic time of babylonian captivity. And the fact his people had not yet repented, even thought they were being punished according to prophesy.

I don't see the connection you are trying to make my friend. sorry.
Daniel 8:26
(26) And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

If you read Daniel 8 the vision of the 2300 days is not explained then look at the first thing Gabriel mentions in Daniel 9
Daniel 9:23
(23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

So what vision is Gabriel referring to? Daniel does not have a vision in chapter 9, since the first mention after that is about time then it is the vision of the 2300 days. Also he says 70 weeks are determined, the word determined means cut off from something, so what is the 70 cut off from? It is cut off from the 2300 days the 70 weeks is part of it.

Daniel 8 does not explain the 2300 days, it does not give a starting point and since the 70 weeks is part of the 2300 days then they both have the same starting point 457BC.

H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.


 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#70
1. The prince does not make the covenant, he CONFIRMS, Or allows it to continue.
2. We see this today. WHen a new leader takes office. He has the ability to "confirm and agreement of a previous leader. Or to make a new one.
3. This shows that a new leader takes power, and confirms some existing covenant (agreement, or using modern day term, a treaty) which was given to many people, not just Israel.
4. This agreement at one time must have allowed for a temple to be rebuilt. Because at this time, sacrifice and offereng are being made in this temple.

5. Israel, as we speak, are doing all they can to rebuild this temple. They have all the furniture and decorations which are supposed to be in it, including the priestly garments which are made and ready to be used when this temple is rebuilt.
6. The only thing holding them back is some agreement which would allow Israel to do this without backlash from her enemies in the middle east. Especially since the "Holy of Holies" should be situated where the Dome of the Rock sits. For Israel to rebuild this temple. they must have some sort of protection to do this. In other words. some peace treat and offer of protection must be made by a power strong enough and capable enough to protect them from backlash from the Muslim armies which would surely do everything they can to destroy Israel and this temple.

7. Even though Israel is still in sin, Still reject Christ (as proven by their return to sacrifice) God allows them to do it anyway. Why? We are still in the 70 weeks. God is having mercy.
8. This agreement is supposed to be for 7 years, and also marks the restoration of the 70 week time period CONCERNING DANIELS CITY, SANCTUARY, AND PEOPLE.
Remember that He confirms the covenant for one week even after the sacrifices cease in the midst of the week He still confirms the covenant after that. Christ confirmed the covenant for one week and caused the sacrifices to cease in their meaning by His death. Now what you are saying that the antichrist confirms it then breaks it in the midst does not fit because it is confirmed for the week not part of it.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#71
Remember that He confirms the covenant for one week even after the sacrifices cease in the midst of the week He still confirms the covenant after that. Christ confirmed the covenant for one week and caused the sacrifices to cease in their meaning by His death. Now what you are saying that the antichrist confirms it then breaks it in the midst does not fit because it is confirmed for the week not part of it.
nice one...but can anything change a mind that is landcentric for a earthbound kingdom? rather than Christcentric in viewing scripture?
Israel didnt get it...the disciples didnt get it for awhile....and it seems to carry on today.
 
Oct 2, 2011
416
3
0
#72
nice one...but can anything change a mind that is landcentric for a earthbound kingdom? rather than Christcentric in viewing scripture?
Israel didnt get it...the disciples didnt get it for awhile....and it seems to carry on today.
Actually I am a premillennialist, and i am in total agreement with Laodicia on by who, how, and why the covenant in Daniel 9 was confirmed.

I think you are referring tot he false teaching of dispensationalism, rather than the historical premillennialism taught by the Apostles their disciples and the whole of the 1st and 2nd century church
 
J

Jacob12

Guest
#73
nice one...but can anything change a mind that is landcentric for a earthbound kingdom? rather than Christcentric in viewing scripture?
Israel didnt get it...the disciples didnt get it for awhile....and it seems to carry on today.
This is a matter that is so repetitively explained in the scripture, if you disagree with where the kingdom will be maybe you should read these Jeremiah 3:17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk anymore any the imagination of their evil heart."
Zechariah 1:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem." Notice it says he is RETURNED TO JERUSALEM, showing that this refers to his second coming. Also if you read the next chapter it starts off with an angel measuring the width and breath of Jerusalem in preparation of the temple. It also says in the next chapter Zechariah 2:10-12 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come and will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall chose Jerusalem again.
Luke 1:32-33 "He shall be great, and he shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord will give unto him the throne of his father David: and of his kingdom there shal be no end."
In case you dont know where David's throne was read 2 Samuel 5:3 " So all the elders of Israel
came to the King to Hebron; and King David made a league with them in Hebron before the Lord: and they annoited David king over all Israel and Judah.
Psalms 132:13-14 "For the Lord hath chosen Zion: he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it."
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"
Psalms 37:11 " But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
Revelation 21:7,10 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things. And he carried me away in spirit to a great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God." So if it's descending out of heaven, where is it descending to? Also notice John gives a description of the city relating to the cardinal directions in verse 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates, on the southh three gates...... If the kingdom isn't on earth how are there still cardinal directions, being that they relate to to earths poles?
John 14:3 "And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, ye may also be.
The holy city descending in the above Revelation verse is the place he told his disciples he was going to prepare. And as you see in the Daniel verse and the psalms verses under it God's people will inhabit it forever. There are so many more verses that confirm this I dont think its neccesary to continue on. The bible says that no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Son there shouldn't be any reason to doubt what is written as literal.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#74
This is a matter that is so repetitively explained in the scripture, if you disagree with where the kingdom will be maybe you should read these Jeremiah 3:17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk anymore any the imagination of their evil heart."
Zechariah 1:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem." Notice it says he is RETURNED TO JERUSALEM, showing that this refers to his second coming. Also if you read the next chapter it starts off with an angel measuring the width and breath of Jerusalem in preparation of the temple. It also says in the next chapter Zechariah 2:10-12 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come and will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall chose Jerusalem again.
Luke 1:32-33 "He shall be great, and he shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord will give unto him the throne of his father David: and of his kingdom there shal be no end."
In case you dont know where David's throne was read 2 Samuel 5:3 " So all the elders of Israel
came to the King to Hebron; and King David made a league with them in Hebron before the Lord: and they annoited David king over all Israel and Judah.
Psalms 132:13-14 "For the Lord hath chosen Zion: he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it."
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"
Psalms 37:11 " But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
Revelation 21:7,10 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things. And he carried me away in spirit to a great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God." So if it's descending out of heaven, where is it descending to? Also notice John gives a description of the city relating to the cardinal directions in verse 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates, on the southh three gates...... If the kingdom isn't on earth how are there still cardinal directions, being that they relate to to earths poles?
John 14:3 "And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, ye may also be.
The holy city descending in the above Revelation verse is the place he told his disciples he was going to prepare. And as you see in the Daniel verse and the psalms verses under it God's people will inhabit it forever. There are so many more verses that confirm this I dont think its neccesary to continue on. The bible says that no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Son there shouldn't be any reason to doubt what is written as literal.

John 18:36
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Those promises could be fulfilled in the new earth, Israel is those who belong to Christ
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#75
This is a matter that is so repetitively explained in the scripture, if you disagree with where the kingdom will be maybe you should read these Jeremiah 3:17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk anymore any the imagination of their evil heart."
Zechariah 1:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem." Notice it says he is RETURNED TO JERUSALEM, showing that this refers to his second coming. Also if you read the next chapter it starts off with an angel measuring the width and breath of Jerusalem in preparation of the temple. It also says in the next chapter Zechariah 2:10-12 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come and will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall chose Jerusalem again..
fulfilled - First Advent:
those were israel's prophets, speaking of their return from captivity, to the Second Temple Jerusalem.

I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies

we know what happened from there.

Zechariah 2:10
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the LORD.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5
“Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

~

is Jesus King now?
David's throne SIMPLY means Jesus IS KING.

Matthew 21:5
“Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”

Luke 1:32-33 "He shall be great, and he shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord will give unto him the throne of his father David: and of his kingdom there shal be no end."
In case you dont know where David's throne was read 2 Samuel 5:3 " So all the elders of Israel
came to the King to Hebron; and King David made a league with them in Hebron before the Lord: and they annoited David king over all Israel and Judah.
Psalms 132:13-14 "For the Lord hath chosen Zion: he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it." .
Hebrews 12
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.


Galatians 4:6
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.".
we sometimes skip over that part in blue.

Daniel 2 - fulfilled - First Advent
44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

Post Ascension - fulfilled:

Daniel 7
The Son of Man Is Given Dominion
13“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 2
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"
Psalms 37:11 " But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
Revelation 21:7,10 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things. And he carried me away in spirit to a great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God." So if it's descending out of heaven, where is it descending to? Also notice John gives a description of the city relating to the cardinal directions in verse 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates, on the southh three gates...... If the kingdom isn't on earth how are there still cardinal directions, being that they relate to to earths poles?
John 14:3 "And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, ye may also be.
The holy city descending in the above Revelation verse is the place he told his disciples he was going to prepare. And as you see in the Daniel verse and the psalms verses under it God's people will inhabit it forever. There are so many more verses that confirm this I dont think its neccesary to continue on. The bible says that no prophecy is of any private interpretation. Son there shouldn't be any reason to doubt what is written as literal.
Ephesians 1
15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, ETERNAL LIFE
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#76
Hebrews 8:10
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Law is the same in the NT as in the OT except now it is written on our heart instead of stone
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#77
Hebrews 8:10
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Law is the same in the NT as in the OT except now it is written on our heart instead of stone
It is also the same as the OT in that it never saved (eternally) one person who ever lived in the earth. The OT people were saved by the same gospel we have, the difference being they looked forward, and we look back.

the old covenant had two purposes.
1. To show us our need for a savior
2. To show Gods people what they needed to do to receive Gods blessings and live the lfe God gave them. To Israel it was as a nation. to the church it is as individuals.

Israels mistake is that they thought it saved them, and made them righteous. Sadly many in the so called church believe the same :(
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#78
sorry, I did not see this. must have been when I took a few weeks off due to things being hectic at home and work, plus I plain needed a break..lol

Daniel 8:26
(26) And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

If you read Daniel 8 the vision of the 2300 days is not explained then look at the first thing Gabriel mentions in Daniel 9
Daniel 9:23
(23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

So what vision is Gabriel referring to? Daniel does not have a vision in chapter 9, since the first mention after that is about time then it is the vision of the 2300 days. Also he says 70 weeks are determined, the word determined means cut off from something, so what is the 70 cut off from? It is cut off from the 2300 days the 70 weeks is part of it.

Daniel 8 does not explain the 2300 days, it does not give a starting point and since the 70 weeks is part of the 2300 days then they both have the same starting point 457BC.

H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.


I guess first we need to look at the word.

Most lexicons have this.


Chathak

to divide, determine (Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out

Properly to cut, to divide as in CH. and Rabb hence to decree, To determine


Thus we can see this was a decree which was determined. Now we must find out who this decree was determined for.

Dan 9: Seventy weeks are decreed, determined for your people.

Next we must determine who is , "your people"

Is it spiritual Israel?
Is it "Natural Israel?

To do this we must go to see WHO daniel was praying for. as this is what the answer to his prayer concerned.

Dan 9:


3 Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You. 8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

So we see that "your people" is "we" is "us" which are who? The inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, Whom God brought out of the land of Egypt.

In determining if Daniel is speaking baout his spiritual people or physical we can determine it from this passage.

1. Daniel did not sin, He did not transgress, He was a part of spiritual Isreal, He was considered righteous in gods sight because of his faith. Yet he claimed that "HE" also did the things which caused isreal to be banished according to the law of moses.

2. In doing this. Daniel is making it clear. i stand with my people. My people have sinned against God, they have rebelled. so as a part of "my people" i am just as guilty as they are.

thus the thought that Daniels prayer, or the answer Gabriel was speaking concerning "Daniels people" as being spiritual Israel, and not "physical Israel" is false.

70 years are determined for "your people" (the nation of Isreal, physical descendants of Abraham Issac and Jacob. the church (spiritual Israel) has no bearing on this prophesy nor is it a part of it.


Now, what is "determined" or "decreed" will happen to "Daniels people" (Physical descendants) is the question. I will split this post so as to not make a long post.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
Daniel 8:26
(26) And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

If you read Daniel 8 the vision of the 2300 days is not explained then look at the first thing Gabriel mentions in Daniel 9
Daniel 9:23
(23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

So what vision is Gabriel referring to? Daniel does not have a vision in chapter 9, since the first mention after that is about time then it is the vision of the 2300 days. Also he says 70 weeks are determined, the word determined means cut off from something, so what is the 70 cut off from? It is cut off from the 2300 days the 70 weeks is part of it.

Daniel 8 does not explain the 2300 days, it does not give a starting point and since the 70 weeks is part of the 2300 days then they both have the same starting point 457BC.

H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.



Continued:

You mentioned daniel 8. so lets look at it.

Daniel 8 speaks of the two "gentile" kingdoms following the babylonian kingdom. (media/persia and Greece) which will be followed by a mighty gentile Kingdom, which will be more fearce than the previous 2. We know this today to be the "roman Empire"

We are told one from this this empire will do the following:

1. All this will happen during the "later time of this kingdom"
2. His power will not be of his own, (Many declare his power will be given by Satan himself. as this is referring to the man of sin or son of perdition)
3. Destroy fearfully (He has destructive power. and those under him will fear him)
4. He will be prosperous (rich) so he has th emoney and ability to get what he needs to cause this destruction and fear
5. He will destroy all mighty nations who appose him, making himself ruler of the earth
6. He will destroy Holy people.
7. he will cause diceit to prosper under his rule (people will follow him to get rich through his deciet)
8. He will exhault himself above all (even God)
9. He will destroy the rich (take their power from them)
10. He will rise against Christ and his people
11. He will be broken without human means (By God himself)

then he tells about the evenings and mornings (2300 days) but NO explanation is given, only that "these things are true" thus it is a mystery.

again, he states these things will happen and the "end of the 4th empire" or "many days in the future"


As we know about the 4th Gentile kingdon or empire:
1. It will be greater than the first 3
2. At some point it will be devided, then splintered (lose its power)
3. After this it will be restored. greater than it was before it was splintered.
4. The leader of this empire will be the ruler that Gabriel mentions in this vision or prophesy

5. This empire was in power at the time of Christ.
6. It was splintered after Christ left (between east and west) and eventually lost its power.
7. Today we are still in the "Splintered" aspect of this 4th kingdom. (The power of this kingdom was democracy. It still holds sway by democratic power. And this democracy will eventually lead it to be reformed, as we see happening to day with the European union and other aspects of the world economy. It is my belief that the collapse of the worlds economy will cause this empire to regain its power. )

8. Thus to conclude, The vision in Daniel 8 has not happened yet. it is still future.

looking at this. If Daniel 9 IS referencing Daniel 8. then the conclusion of Daniel 9 is still future.

as for the 2300 days, I am not sure how you are getting that this started in 457 BC. no explanation or starting point is given in chapter 8 or 9 what these days mean or represent. only that "they are true"

as for the "command to rebuild and restore the "city of jerusalem" this went out under artaxes in the 1st of nissan 445 BC.

I also am not sure where you get the point that 2300 days are "cut off from" the 70 weeks. As nowhere in Gabriels message does gabriel mention the "days" in Daniels answer in chapter 9. Gabriel says what is determined, or as you say "cut off"

24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

No mention of 2300 days, And this 70 weeks was concerning "Daniels people and his city "Jerusalem"

"Understand the vision" to me means. "Understand what I am about ready to show you" And has nothing really to do with chapter 8. I think that is a stretch. For nothing that gabriel tells or shows Daniel from the time he spoke to the time he finished had anything to do with Daniel 8 and the vision daniel saw, other than Gabriel was the "Angel Daniel saw when he was given the vision" I would expect references to daniel 8, if Gabriel was talking about that vision in his answer to Daniel concerning "His People"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
Remember that He confirms the covenant for one week even after the sacrifices cease in the midst of the week He still confirms the covenant after that. Christ confirmed the covenant for one week and caused the sacrifices to cease in their meaning by His death. Now what you are saying that the antichrist confirms it then breaks it in the midst does not fit because it is confirmed for the week not part of it.
1. When did Christ "confirm" a 7 year covenant"?
2. When a leader "confirms a covenant" it in no way means he has to "fulfill" the covenant until it ends. many leaders, nations etc etc have broken their covenants before they were completed.
3. As per number 2. I disagree. why?

again, going in order of events according to gabriel.


26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

We have two "he's" here;
1. messiah the prince
2. The prince who is to come (who comes from the people who destroy the sanctuary (rome) thus he will be a roman leader)

In order (so far) these things happen.

1. After 69 weeks. messiah gets cut off (killed) (fulfilled on the cross)
2. After this, the People of the future prince will destroy the city and sanctuary (fulfilled 70 AD)

3. This period will continue until the "end of wars and desolations are determined. (thus we are not given a time period of this period.)

then things continue: (at the end)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

1. He confirms a covenant with many for one week (7 years)
2. In the middle of this week, He cuts off sacrifice and burnt offering by commiting the Abomination of desolation (he desecrates the inner sanctum?
3. This desecration will continue until the "Consumation is poured out on the desolate" (it will continue for a time which is determined by God)


in conclusion. The "He" is the one who commits the abomination. Thus unless you think "Christ" committed this abomination. The "he " can not be Christ. but the future roman leader, who confirms a covenant for 1 week (7 years) Remember, Christ himself said, When you see the abomination spoken of in daniel "the he" run!