Views on Sin, Homosexuality, and the Bible: Moving Towards Reaching Conclusions

[perdonato]

A recent conversation within my house provoked some interesting questions regarding sin - I have searched through the forums to see what has already been said in relation to the topic and there are some relevant threads but nothing that really gives me anything solid to work with.

As we were talking about the definition of sin and the importance of knowing where we stand on certain issues, the hot topic of homosexuality came up. One of my housemates made the statement that all sins hurt the world in some fashion. They proceeded to explain how lies hurt relationships, murder kills someone, etc. and then said they couldn't seen the correlation between homosexuality and sin.

In my mind, I thought there was an obvious hurt to the world - that it does not allow for procreation as God intended. However, another housemate chimed in at that point and said that if its "problem" is preventing procreation then we need to allow for homosexuality, as the world becomes more and more over populated. I will spare anymore opinions or views that were presented in hopes of gathering yours but...

Through our discussion no common ground was reached, but we agreed to mull over these questions:

1. What defines sin? (which is in another thread..woohoo..but not as in depth as I might like.. so perhaps I'll go post there, too)
2. How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?
3. Even if we can't reach a conclusion on how homosexuality hurts creation, how do we get ignore what is written in the Bible in regards to sin?

If you can and will, I'd love your input on this topic as it has come numerous times in my house and I'm sure we'll talk about it again soon enough. I just want to prevent talking in circles (as that seems to be a trend in today's society...)

Thank you all.

 

[Crossfire]

A recent conversation within my house provoked some interesting questions regarding sin - I have searched through the forums to see what has already been said in relation to the topic and there are some relevant threads but nothing that really gives me anything solid to work with.

As we were talking about the definition of sin and the importance of knowing where we stand on certain issues, the hot topic of homosexuality came up. One of my housemates made the statement that all sins hurt the world in some fashion. They proceeded to explain how lies hurt relationships, murder kills someone, etc. and then said they couldn't seen the correlation between homosexuality and sin.

In my mind, I thought there was an obvious hurt to the world - that it does not allow for procreation as God intended. However, another housemate chimed in at that point and said that if its "problem" is preventing procreation then we need to allow for homosexuality, as the world becomes more and more over populated. I will spare anymore opinions or views that were presented in hopes of gathering yours but...

Through our discussion no common ground was reached, but we agreed to mull over these questions:

1. What defines sin? (which is in another thread..woohoo..but not as in depth as I might like.. so perhaps I'll go post there, too)
2. How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?
3. Even if we can't reach a conclusion on how homosexuality hurts creation, how do we get ignore what is written in the Bible in regards to sin?

If you can and will, I'd love your input on this topic as it has come numerous times in my house and I'm sure we'll talk about it again soon enough. I just want to prevent talking in circles (as that seems to be a trend in today's society...)

Thank you all.

Great topic & awesome questions! I can think of several scriptures off hand which I believe will help shed further light on this highly sensitive topic however, I would like spend some personal time with the Lord before I do.

 

[RedTent]

Does homosexuality hurt the world?

First, God created the world and has the say about how it should be lived in and God says no to homosexuality. Those who decide they know better than what God says are like those who, in ancient times, looked to manmade idols for answers. That homosexuality is OK is a manmade idea.

But when we question God, His ways usually are best. Our society is based on the family unit. These family units based on homosexuality are not ones that can truthfully carry on the values God wants from them.

All history buffs will explain that any time a nation was about to fall homosexuality was more and more accepted before the fall.

When Judah and Israel decided the manmade Gods were best to follow, disaster followed. That God principle still stands, God never changes .

 

[mpaper345]

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer(1 Timothy 4:1-5).


That is strange because the New Age religion,who has an occult interpretation of the Holy Bible,who God warned us about them,promote homosexuality for population control,and when they come to power,who are waiting for the New Age Christ,they will command to abstain from marriage,forbid a man and woman to be together,and the United Nations wants to do something about the size of families in the world.


God said He has given marriage to people,and never says being homosexual is good because it can reduce the population,and God is against people forbidding a man and a woman to marry.


Homosexuality is a sin,and people need to not have children,not become homosexual.


Homosexuality is a lust of the flesh,and not out of love.Homosexuality not only goes against the spiritual realm,but also goes against nature.God is also against sodomy for that is not what that is to be used for,showing it is lust,and not love.

 

[resurrection33]

A recent conversation within my house provoked some interesting questions regarding sin - I have searched through the forums to see what has already been said in relation to the topic and there are some relevant threads but nothing that really gives me anything solid to work with.

As we were talking about the definition of sin and the importance of knowing where we stand on certain issues, the hot topic of homosexuality came up. One of my housemates made the statement that all sins hurt the world in some fashion. They proceeded to explain how lies hurt relationships, murder kills someone, etc. and then said they couldn't seen the correlation between homosexuality and sin.

In my mind, I thought there was an obvious hurt to the world - that it does not allow for procreation as God intended. However, another housemate chimed in at that point and said that if its "problem" is preventing procreation then we need to allow for homosexuality, as the world becomes more and more over populated. I will spare anymore opinions or views that were presented in hopes of gathering yours but...

Through our discussion no common ground was reached, but we agreed to mull over these questions:

1. What defines sin? (which is in another thread..woohoo..but not as in depth as I might like.. so perhaps I'll go post there, too)
2. How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?
3. Even if we can't reach a conclusion on how homosexuality hurts creation, how do we get ignore what is written in the Bible in regards to sin?

If you can and will, I'd love your input on this topic as it has come numerous times in my house and I'm sure we'll talk about it again soon enough. I just want to prevent talking in circles (as that seems to be a trend in today's society...)

Thank you all.

What defines sin? The Lord will show each of us as time goes on:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33 RSV

Meanwhile, Jesus gives rather concise commandments in the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).

 

[resurrection33]

A recent conversation within my house provoked some interesting questions regarding sin - I have searched through the forums to see what has already been said in relation to the topic and there are some relevant threads but nothing that really gives me anything solid to work with.

As we were talking about the definition of sin and the importance of knowing where we stand on certain issues, the hot topic of homosexuality came up. One of my housemates made the statement that all sins hurt the world in some fashion. They proceeded to explain how lies hurt relationships, murder kills someone, etc. and then said they couldn't seen the correlation between homosexuality and sin.

In my mind, I thought there was an obvious hurt to the world - that it does not allow for procreation as God intended. However, another housemate chimed in at that point and said that if its "problem" is preventing procreation then we need to allow for homosexuality, as the world becomes more and more over populated. I will spare anymore opinions or views that were presented in hopes of gathering yours but...

Through our discussion no common ground was reached, but we agreed to mull over these questions:

1. What defines sin? (which is in another thread..woohoo..but not as in depth as I might like.. so perhaps I'll go post there, too)
2. How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?
3. Even if we can't reach a conclusion on how homosexuality hurts creation, how do we get ignore what is written in the Bible in regards to sin?

If you can and will, I'd love your input on this topic as it has come numerous times in my house and I'm sure we'll talk about it again soon enough. I just want to prevent talking in circles (as that seems to be a trend in today's society...)

Thank you all.

How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?

Jesus taught us not to have sex until we get married, and if people waited until they got married to have sex, there would be no homosexuality. He is smarter than we are, but we will understand why someday.

 

[perdonato]

What defines sin? The Lord will show each of us as time goes on:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33 RSV

Meanwhile, Jesus gives rather concise commandments in the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).

How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?

Jesus taught us not to have sex until we get married, and if people waited until they got married to have sex, there would be no homosexuality. He is smarter than we are, but we will understand why someday.

I feel like considering the people with whom I'm talking I'm looking for a bit more substance in responses. The group is composed of 2 seminary graduates and 1 seminary student and another person who is about to start seminary (and then a variety of other people who just have strong opinions). This conversation is provoked by the idea that someday these men will be in leadership and have to explain their responses to people who may not understand the Bible in full, and may wonder about the lies that are being spoken from other churches. (Whichever churches those are, I have no idea... but a different church may have a different answer). I think these are legitimate points, but if you want to add some scripture to back them up perhaps they will be even more powerful.

 

[perdonato]

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer(1 Timothy 4:1-5).


That is strange because the New Age religion,who has an occult interpretation of the Holy Bible,who God warned us about them,promote homosexuality for population control,and when they come to power,who are waiting for the New Age Christ,they will command to abstain from marriage,forbid a man and woman to be together,and the United Nations wants to do something about the size of families in the world.


God said He has given marriage to people,and never says being homosexual is good because it can reduce the population,and God is against people forbidding a man and a woman to marry.


Homosexuality is a sin,and people need to not have children,not become homosexual.


Homosexuality is a lust of the flesh,and not out of love.Homosexuality not only goes against the spiritual realm,but also goes against nature.God is also against sodomy for that is not what that is to be used for,showing it is lust,and not love.

Very interesting point about the new age religion... Hmm. Again, though, as I just said for resurrection - scriptural back up to these points would be very valuable. Opinions are null and it's not always easy for people to see the different between an opinion and a valid point with evidence to back it up. -- Why do you say homosexuality is a sin?

 

[resurrection33]

I feel like considering the people with whom I'm talking I'm looking for a bit more substance in responses. The group is composed of 2 seminary graduates and 1 seminary student and another person who is about to start seminary (and then a variety of other people who just have strong opinions). This conversation is provoked by the idea that someday these men will be in leadership and have to explain their responses to people who may not understand the Bible in full, and may wonder about the lies that are being spoken from other churches. (Whichever churches those are, I have no idea... but a different church may have a different answer). I think these are legitimate points, but if you want to add some scripture to back them up perhaps they will be even more powerful.

Truth is simple:

[20] And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
[22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-23 RSV

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 RSV

 

[perdonato]

Does homosexuality hurt the world?

First, God created the world and has the say about how it should be lived in and God says no to homosexuality. Those who decide they know better than what God says are like those who, in ancient times, looked to manmade idols for answers. That homosexuality is OK is a manmade idea.

But when we question God, His ways usually are best. Our society is based on the family unit. These family units based on homosexuality are not ones that can truthfully carry on the values God wants from them.

All history buffs will explain that any time a nation was about to fall homosexuality was more and more accepted before the fall.

When Judah and Israel decided the manmade Gods were best to follow, disaster followed. That God principle still stands, God never changes .

Very interesting points. Do you have any references for these history buffs and their claims?

 

[resurrection33]

I feel like considering the people with whom I'm talking I'm looking for a bit more substance in responses. The group is composed of 2 seminary graduates and 1 seminary student and another person who is about to start seminary (and then a variety of other people who just have strong opinions). This conversation is provoked by the idea that someday these men will be in leadership and have to explain their responses to people who may not understand the Bible in full, and may wonder about the lies that are being spoken from other churches. (Whichever churches those are, I have no idea... but a different church may have a different answer). I think these are legitimate points, but if you want to add some scripture to back them up perhaps they will be even more powerful.

Truth is simple:

[20] And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
[22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-23 RSV

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 RSV

I might add that you will never find two men who want to marry each other who aren’t already having sex.

 

[perdonato]

Truth is simple:

[20] And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
[22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-23 RSV

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 RSV

Okay... but how do we conclude homosexuality is a part of fornication?

 

[resurrection33]

Okay... but how do we conclude homosexuality is a part of fornication?

If it’s wrong for a man to look lustfully on a woman, then it’s wrong for a man to look lustfully on a man.

 

[perdonato]

If it’s wrong for a man to look lustfully on a woman, then it’s wrong for a man to look lustfully on a man.

Okay... I can agree with that. But I'm still not sure I see the point in full. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[resurrection33]

Okay... I can agree with that. But I'm still not sure I see the point in full. Maybe I'm missing something.

The only time sex is allowed is when you are lawfully married to the person you are having sex with. Two men would never want to marry each other unless they were already having sex with each other.

 

[babyboyblue]

As it relates to Homosexuality and other sins:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[CanadaNZ]

A recent conversation within my house provoked some interesting questions regarding sin - I have searched through the forums to see what has already been said in relation to the topic and there are some relevant threads but nothing that really gives me anything solid to work with.

As we were talking about the definition of sin and the importance of knowing where we stand on certain issues, the hot topic of homosexuality came up. One of my housemates made the statement that all sins hurt the world in some fashion. They proceeded to explain how lies hurt relationships, murder kills someone, etc. and then said they couldn't seen the correlation between homosexuality and sin.

In my mind, I thought there was an obvious hurt to the world - that it does not allow for procreation as God intended. However, another housemate chimed in at that point and said that if its "problem" is preventing procreation then we need to allow for homosexuality, as the world becomes more and more over populated. I will spare anymore opinions or views that were presented in hopes of gathering yours but...

Through our discussion no common ground was reached, but we agreed to mull over these questions:

1. What defines sin? (which is in another thread..woohoo..but not as in depth as I might like.. so perhaps I'll go post there, too)
2. How does homosexuality hurt the world (if we define sin as something that hurts God's creation)?
3. Even if we can't reach a conclusion on how homosexuality hurts creation, how do we get ignore what is written in the Bible in regards to sin?

If you can and will, I'd love your input on this topic as it has come numerous times in my house and I'm sure we'll talk about it again soon enough. I just want to prevent talking in circles (as that seems to be a trend in today's society...)

Thank you all.

1. Sin does hurt the world, but that is not what sin is. Sin is doing what is evil, going against God who is Holy.

2. Homosexuality is a sin as per scripture and that is all that matters.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 " 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. "

Romans 1:21-27 "21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."


Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

God's Word is truth.

 

[perdonato]

1. Sin does hurt the world, but that is not what sin is. Sin is doing what is evil, going against God who is Holy.

2. Homosexuality is a sin as per scripture and that is all that matters.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 " 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. "

Romans 1:21-27 "21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."


Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

God's Word is truth.

Gold. Thank you for this contribution.

And I would agree with these responses. I just need to know how to convey it all better to this group. So even more backup and support here would be appreciated. Thank you all for your thoughts.

 

[perdonato]

The only time sex is allowed is when you are lawfully married to the person you are having sex with. Two men would never want to marry each other unless they were already having sex with each other.

I feel a strong argument could be made against this point to say that marriage has not been allowed and we cannot say men that are partners would not want to marry before sleeping together.... but since they've never had the opportunity. Yeah, I just see that one crumbling fairly quickly in a liberal audience.

 

[RedTent]

Very interesting points. Do you have any references for these history buffs and their claims?

Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbons

Family and Civilization by Carle Zimmerman