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R
yes i have read hebrew textbooks...and i have to say that to anyone with even a basic knowledge of hebrew...your assertion is like saying the sky is green...you are simply incorrect in the most obvious way...
it really sounds like you just read one book about the gap theory and then decided you knew enough about how hebrew works to figure this stuff out...
you are contradicting the very same secular science you are trying to reconcile with the bible...yes secular science says that the earth is billions of years old...but secular science also says that the earth was never rendered 'formless and void' in some prehuman catastrophe...and that there was no civilization on earth prior to the current human species
by attempting to force fit the bible and secular science together...you have made yourself an enemy of both...
it really sounds like you just read one book about the gap theory and then decided you knew enough about how hebrew works to figure this stuff out...
you are contradicting the very same secular science you are trying to reconcile with the bible...yes secular science says that the earth is billions of years old...but secular science also says that the earth was never rendered 'formless and void' in some prehuman catastrophe...and that there was no civilization on earth prior to the current human species
by attempting to force fit the bible and secular science together...you have made yourself an enemy of both...
A
As I said to you already, there is an EASY way to prove you are right. Show me the verses from Genesis 1 where "was" has static meaning as it does in English. Just point them out if you are so correct.
This is obviously not an argument.
Uh, actually, secular science that the Earth became formless and void It's called the end of the Pleisctosene Age or the Ice Age. Furthermore, I am not trying to reconcile science with the Bible. I am just rightly dividing scripture. It just so happens that science is catching up to what the Bible stated 3,500 years ago.
Obviosuly science says this. And the Bible makes it clear that angels were created before humans.
Again, I don't get these statements. But I look forward to your substantive responses that actually incorporate scripture.
This is obviously not an argument.
Uh, actually, secular science that the Earth became formless and void It's called the end of the Pleisctosene Age or the Ice Age. Furthermore, I am not trying to reconcile science with the Bible. I am just rightly dividing scripture. It just so happens that science is catching up to what the Bible stated 3,500 years ago.
Obviosuly science says this. And the Bible makes it clear that angels were created before humans.
Again, I don't get these statements. But I look forward to your substantive responses that actually incorporate scripture.
A
Scripture says otherwise.
Job 38 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.... 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The angels already existed before the Earth's creation and were singing and praising God when He created it.
And I am still waiting for your verse from Genesis 1 that shows the interpretation of "was" that you are claiming.
R
actually job 38 does not imply that the angels existed before the earth was created... the bible does not say when the angels were created...but we can narrow it down...
the most obvious understanding of the foundation of the earth being laid is that it happened on day three...when dry land appeared as the waters under the heavens were gathered together... a foundation refers to something solid and the earth's continents fit that concept the best...
since the angels witnessed the main events of day three...that leaves days one and two as possible days when the angels were created...or possibly very early in day three before God began to separate the earth into water and dry land...
day one is probably the most likely of the days when the angels could have been created... that particular day is when God created light...and the association between angels and light is well established...
anyway even if it was true...the idea of angels existing before creation week doesn't even substantively support the gap theory...since God could have just created the angels moments before the first day began...so that there would be no need to suppose a multi billion year gap between two 'creations'
the most obvious understanding of the foundation of the earth being laid is that it happened on day three...when dry land appeared as the waters under the heavens were gathered together... a foundation refers to something solid and the earth's continents fit that concept the best...
since the angels witnessed the main events of day three...that leaves days one and two as possible days when the angels were created...or possibly very early in day three before God began to separate the earth into water and dry land...
day one is probably the most likely of the days when the angels could have been created... that particular day is when God created light...and the association between angels and light is well established...
anyway even if it was true...the idea of angels existing before creation week doesn't even substantively support the gap theory...since God could have just created the angels moments before the first day began...so that there would be no need to suppose a multi billion year gap between two 'creations'
A
No. That is not what the Bible is saying at all. Foundation speaks to inital parts to create something.
Ezra 5: 16Then came the same Sheshbazzar, and laid the foundation of the house of God which is in Jerusalem: and since that time even until now hath it been in building, and yet it is not finished.
Similarly the cornerstone speaks to the principal weight of the building. Again going back to the creation. God is not talking about continents. He is talking about the creation of the planet itself.
This is just unbiblical speculation. The text does not support this. Angels are not even mentioned in Genesis 1. Why would the Bible just omit their creation on Day 1 or 2??
It is? Where is that well-established? Again, this is your own guesswork. I am just going by the plain statement of scripture. The angels witnessed God creating the Earth.
At the moment we realize that angels existed before the Earth we know, with absolute certainty, that there is a history of the creation that we do not have, the precedes humanity. Thus there is a Gap. Period. And of course we know Satan was once good, fell into pride and sin, led a rebellion and suffered judgment, all before we get to the Genesis creation week.
And this is why the Bible does not state the age of the earth.
Ezra 5: 16Then came the same Sheshbazzar, and laid the foundation of the house of God which is in Jerusalem: and since that time even until now hath it been in building, and yet it is not finished.
Similarly the cornerstone speaks to the principal weight of the building. Again going back to the creation. God is not talking about continents. He is talking about the creation of the planet itself.
This is just unbiblical speculation. The text does not support this. Angels are not even mentioned in Genesis 1. Why would the Bible just omit their creation on Day 1 or 2??
It is? Where is that well-established? Again, this is your own guesswork. I am just going by the plain statement of scripture. The angels witnessed God creating the Earth.
At the moment we realize that angels existed before the Earth we know, with absolute certainty, that there is a history of the creation that we do not have, the precedes humanity. Thus there is a Gap. Period. And of course we know Satan was once good, fell into pride and sin, led a rebellion and suffered judgment, all before we get to the Genesis creation week.
And this is why the Bible does not state the age of the earth.
R
well since we all know that context is more than just one chapter of scripture...there is no need for me to just stick to genesis 1 to find an example...so here is one from genesis 2...
genesis 2:25..."The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame."
this verse uses the same hebrew verb for 'was' as in genesis 1:2...to translate it as 'became' would make the verse say "The man and his wife both became naked, and they felt to shame." which everyone knows is incorrect...
there are many many other examples in the following chapters too...
my remark that you didn't seem to know enough hebrew to correctly evaluate the claims of the gap theory...which really doesn't take much hebrew knowledge at all...was just an observation...and now it seems that you don't even know the science involved either...
science does -not- say that the earth became formless and void at the end of the pleistocene epoch...according to paleontologists there were many creatures that lived in the pleistocene ice age...the only major difference between then and now is that the pleistocene species were often much larger...
also the pleistocene glaciers did not cover the whole earth...for example in north america the glaciers really did not go any further south than the midwest states... regions further south were more temperate...
in fact far from having a formless and void earth...secular science actually says that the region that is now the sahara desert was a lush tropical plain during the pleistocene epoch...
finally no scientist will tell you that the earth was covered in darkness at the end of the pleistocene epoch...no scientist will tell you that there was no dry land at the end of the pleistocene epoch...and no scientist will tell you that green plants or fish or birds or any major classes of animals had vanished at the end of the pleistocene epoch...the pleistocene epoch gives no indication of any circumstance that would have made it necessary for God to recreate -anything-
not only are you not rightly dividing the scriptures...you are not even getting the science right...why are you so insistent on mangling them both in a failed effort to cram several billion years into the bible?
genesis 2:25..."The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame."
this verse uses the same hebrew verb for 'was' as in genesis 1:2...to translate it as 'became' would make the verse say "The man and his wife both became naked, and they felt to shame." which everyone knows is incorrect...
there are many many other examples in the following chapters too...
my remark that you didn't seem to know enough hebrew to correctly evaluate the claims of the gap theory...which really doesn't take much hebrew knowledge at all...was just an observation...and now it seems that you don't even know the science involved either...
science does -not- say that the earth became formless and void at the end of the pleistocene epoch...according to paleontologists there were many creatures that lived in the pleistocene ice age...the only major difference between then and now is that the pleistocene species were often much larger...
also the pleistocene glaciers did not cover the whole earth...for example in north america the glaciers really did not go any further south than the midwest states... regions further south were more temperate...
in fact far from having a formless and void earth...secular science actually says that the region that is now the sahara desert was a lush tropical plain during the pleistocene epoch...
finally no scientist will tell you that the earth was covered in darkness at the end of the pleistocene epoch...no scientist will tell you that there was no dry land at the end of the pleistocene epoch...and no scientist will tell you that green plants or fish or birds or any major classes of animals had vanished at the end of the pleistocene epoch...the pleistocene epoch gives no indication of any circumstance that would have made it necessary for God to recreate -anything-
not only are you not rightly dividing the scriptures...you are not even getting the science right...why are you so insistent on mangling them both in a failed effort to cram several billion years into the bible?
R
i have noticed that modern unbiblical doctrines often trace back not to scripture or to science...both of which the false doctrines contradict...but rather they trace back to some pagan mythology...
in the case of the gap theory the connection to paganism is clear...many pagan mythologies include multiple creations...
for example there are the five ages of greek mythology...the four ages of roman mythology...the ragnarok cycles of norse mythology...the four yugas of hinduism...and the five suns of aztec mythology...
satan has been 'going green' for thousands of years...he is always recycling his old lies...
in the case of the gap theory the connection to paganism is clear...many pagan mythologies include multiple creations...
for example there are the five ages of greek mythology...the four ages of roman mythology...the ragnarok cycles of norse mythology...the four yugas of hinduism...and the five suns of aztec mythology...
satan has been 'going green' for thousands of years...he is always recycling his old lies...
A
First off, you are conceding that you cannot find an example where the word WAS meets your incorrect interpretation. Secondly, in the verse you cite, there is no Hebrew word in the Hebrew text for "were". WERE is NOT in the Hebrew text! This is easily veriifiable with any online concordance Wow. This is the same point I have been making all along. I am again at a loss as to why you are making these claims when it is you who does not have a grasp of the translation of Hebrew in scripture. You call yourself "Bible student" but you seem like you are not willing to learn and instead are more focused on being right. And in your incorrect claims, you are just proving my point more and more.
No there are not, actually. There are none.
My point about the end of that age was that geologists assert that the Earth experienced an extinction level event. Futhermore, I honestly don't care about these findings because my truth is based on the Bible. Science is merely playing catch up. So whether it matches scripture or not is irrelevant to me.
Actually they do.
Again, I don't care about getting the science right. I care about rightly dividing scripture which you are not doing at all.
No there are not, actually. There are none.
My point about the end of that age was that geologists assert that the Earth experienced an extinction level event. Futhermore, I honestly don't care about these findings because my truth is based on the Bible. Science is merely playing catch up. So whether it matches scripture or not is irrelevant to me.
Actually they do.
Again, I don't care about getting the science right. I care about rightly dividing scripture which you are not doing at all.
A
Again, this is wrong. The Targum, Pes-hita and Midrash all articulate the earth becoming ruined before the creation week.
Origen wrote:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."
Whether you agree or disagree with Gap Theory it has no historical connection to paganism. It is a distinctly Hebrew belief.
Origen wrote:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."
Whether you agree or disagree with Gap Theory it has no historical connection to paganism. It is a distinctly Hebrew belief.
L
The earth became that way because God created it that way on day one. There is no Biblical evidence that the earth existed before
Genesis 1:2. read verse 1 & 2 together
Genesis 1:1-2
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
In the beginning of this earth, God created it on day 1 without form and void
Genesis 1:2. read verse 1 & 2 together
Genesis 1:1-2
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
In the beginning of this earth, God created it on day 1 without form and void
It is the word of God according to who? The people who wrote it.
I am not trying to be offensive, but people really need to be rational about this.
Thank you. And I would like to point out, that I am not trying to bash Christians here at all. I just don't believe in the bible. It's a good read, but I think the author's plagiarized some of the aspects from older religions
And just the fact that people use the argument "You have to suspend your acceptance of testable evidence because it doesn't fit the bible" is honestly shocking to me.
Pretty standard way of avoiding the question.
A
Yes and verse 2 tells us the Earth became formless and void. That's not reading into it. It's reading it accurately. As I have said many times in this thread, the word "was" in Genesis 1 and everywhere in the Old Testament means "BECAME." It does not mean "was" in the sense we use it in English ("I was a quarterback in High School"). So the Bible is telling us something happened to the Earth in verse 2 to make it be in that ruined condition.
http://cheezcomixed.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/koma-comic-strip-get-your-story-straight.jpg
Seriously, have you ever read other religious text. Either they were all inspired by the same source, or people are just updating the stories.
C
And notice God never said "Let there be" concerning the earth and water. These things seemed to be already created and present. And how do we have the "evening and the morning" and 24 hour days before the sun was created? Maybe because the sun was already created and the fourth day just describes when the "fog" in the sky was removed and made the sun fully visible and God made OR as the Hebrew word "asah" could suggest "appointed" the sun.
...but who knows?
...but who knows?