Repenting Before Death/homosexuality..

xXTroubleXx · Jan 31, 2012

I've had this question in my mind since I was introduced to the concept of 'sin' and I feel this would be the most appropriate place to ask this. (This might just be me being insensitive to many of you, but I'm generally just curious...)

It is my understanding that a person can be a good person in life but go to hell if they do not believe in god and confess their sins and the whole 9 yards. But a person who does confess their sins and who believes in god will go to heaven, not by virtue of good works, but by the 'virtue' of believing in god. That person could be Adolf Hitler or a pedophile or a murderer or just an average christian. (<---correct me if I am wrong, since this is the basis of my question).

I'm not here to whine about why I don't think that's fair, but I DO want to know if the bible has a rule against this kind of situation...

A gay christian cannot become straight. So, he lives life believing in god and behaving like a christian who sins everyday and asks for forgiveness. The sins this person does include things that the average straight christian would probably do daily & ask forgiveness for. The only thing added to the list is 'homosexual actions' or whatever anyone wants to call it. The day comes that this person is on his/her deathbed and he/she repents whole-heartedly and honestly of all his/her sins, including homosexuality.

Will this person (based on what the bible says) technically get into heaven? Or is there something in the bible that deliberately states that this kind of situation would not fly?

This scenario and question really goes for all sins, but I got flared up on a topic of homosexuality earlier so I'm going with that one in my example.

Bible references are appreciated, but if you just want to assert an opinion and not a bible passage, feel free.

I tried to word this clearly, please let me know if I did not.

A-Omega · Jan 31, 2012

xXTroubleXx said:

1. Can someone be forgiven on their death bed/end of their life of sin -- Absolutely 100% yes.

9And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. -- Luke 23

The thief on the cross was saved right before his death. So certainly anyone else can be.

2. This is not fair -- I disagree here. Fairness assumes that we are actually working for our salvation. We are not. Jesus did all the work on the cross. We just have to believe. So if Jesus is doing something for me in saving me, He is doing the same thing for you in saving you. Neither of us worked for our salvation no matter when we received it. So nothing is unfair about it.

And once you become a true Christian, you will feel immense GUILT for your sins. You will hate the sinful, Godless person you used to be (I know I do). So having "extra time to sin" in life is not a benefit, it's a shame.

Ecclesiastes 12 1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

3. A Gay Christian can't change -- Again, the Bible disagrees with it. Homosexuality is a sin. We can have our sinful ways changed through Jesus Christ. Being saved is supernatural. God gives us the Holy Spirit to create a new spirit in us. It is up to us work out our salvation and let that spirit lead us over our fleshly desires. Just as a straight fornicator can change and stop having sex outside of marriage a homosexual person can stop being gay.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This will not happen immediately. But it can indeed happen through prayer, faith and desire to change. Here are some ministries of Christians who were formerly gay.

Testimony of Ex-Gay Alan Chambers says Leaving Homosexuality is not about heterosexuality but rather holiness | Values Voter News

Leaving Homosexuality | knowhislove.com

There were many sins in my life that felt "natural" and yet God changed them. The same goes for someone who is gay who is ready to live for Christ and not themselves and their lusts.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is what being a Christian is about. And this is when God's power can manifest. When we choose to let all things that oppose God DIE.

God knows the heart. A deathbed confessions means nothing without true faith. But someone who truly believes upon the name of Jesus Christ will be saved. God bless.

HearOhIsreal · Jan 31, 2012

Jesus said if we have even an ounce of faith, we can move mountains. I believe it is possible for a homosexual to live a righteous life through Christ and make it to heaven.

Trax · Jan 31, 2012

xXTroubleXx said:

For the first one about a murderer getting saved. What do you think Paul was doing before he
got saved? He was rounding up Christians and having them killed, yet Paul wrote half the NT.
The Lord can change a person.

Now, homosexuals. People sin because they are sinners. People have to repent. To say
the practice is natural, well, so is any other sin. Sinning comes natural. Kids learn to lie all on
their own. If the practice of homsexuality isn't a sin, then lying isn't either, since its natural
and don't have to be taught. To say homosexuals can't change is denying the power of God.
If God can make Nebuchadnezzar act like a wild animal, He can also change the heart of man.

Now, I have heard it said, from homosexuals, "I was born this way." Well, Jesus tells all, "You
must be born again." Reading of Romans 1, people can get so twisted in their actions and thinking and beliefs, God gives them over to reprobate/depraved mind. With reprobate mind,
an individual can not see their actions are wrong, nor have a need to change. God made
Nebuchadnezzar think he was an animal. Nechuchadnezzar didn't think anything was wrong
until God gave him a sound mind again. He thought he was an animal, thought he was born
an animal, and thought it perfectly normal to be an animal. If God can give a man over to thinking
that, He can give any individual over to thinking homosexuality is natural also.

I feel sorry for the homosexual community. They are being preached to that there is nothing wrong with their lifestyle and they don't need to change. But they can change and many have
changed. But if anyone has been given over to a reprobate mind, they just are not going to
see it. Nebuchadnezzar was given another chance, but this generation, it don't look like
they will.

Jilly81 · Jan 31, 2012

Congrats, Trouble, I think this is the first time I've ever posted in the Bible Discussion Forum; you won cuz you made a thread that I wanted to post in

.

First of all, you said to correct you if you were wrong on the bit about believing in God to get to heaven. Actually, you have to accept Jesus as your Savior; He took your sins on the cross, and you have to simply accept His death as the propitiation for the bad things you have done (John 3:16

). It really couldn't be any easier; He made it so unbelievably open to all. Also, people will surely argue with me on this one, and I doubt I'll respond to them, but since you probably wonder what would then happen to the people who are unfortunate enough to have never heard about Jesus dying for them, there's a way for them also; John 5:28-29 says that they will be judged according to their works.

HearOhIsreal · Jan 31, 2012

Jilly81 said:

You probably won't see this like you said, but just mere acceptance of Jesus as your Savior will not bring you salvation.

We must also obey him through faith and have a heart of repentance when we sin.

You not only must accept Him, but walk like Him. God bless.

mpaper345 · Jan 31, 2012

That is a good one of the thief on the cross of the above post,which all of us when we come to God do have a fear of being separated from God,which does not matter if we come to God early in life or on our deathbed.

So while the person on the deathbed has the fear of being separated from God believing in Christ,we all have that feeling of fear of being separated from God that drives a lot of people to God.

It is just that people on their deathbed intensifies that fear,and they confess,which that fear was not strong enough before the deathbed experience,to cause them to confess,where some people do not need to be on their deathbed to have strong fear and confess.

That seems to be the main motivator,fear of being separated from God,that causes people to come to God,which the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,and the Bible says save some with fear,and we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling,and do right because it is a fearful thing to fall in to the hands of the living God.

1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen(Matthew 20:1-16).

This parable is about workers in a field that all were paid the same,no matter how long they labored during the day.

The ones that worked 12 hours received a penny.
The ones that labored 9 hours received a penny.
The ones that labored 6 hours received a penny.
The ones that labored 3 hours received a penny.
The ones that labored 1 hour received a penny.

This parable is likened unto the kingdom of heaven.

This parable is basically saying that it does not matter how long that you live for God,you get paid the same,eternal life,whether you lived for God for 40 years,or lived for God on your deathbed.

It is also a parable that can identify with those who think it is not fair that people can confess on their deathbed and be saved,or people that do not like the fact that these people did not care about the Lord or doing right,and then they get on their deathbed and confess.

The ones that labored 12 hours were mad because they worked that long through the heat of the day,and only received a penny,the same amount that those who only worked one hour received.

And so it is with some people that lived for Jesus for 40 years,or lived for Jesus for a while,laboring for the kingdom of God,feeding the poor,visiting the orphans,preaching the Gospel,putting in much time to the kingdom of God,and someone can be on their deathbed and confess Jesus,or do right,and did not care about the Lord before the deathbed,and they deserve to be saved.

It makes some people mad that they cared about the Lord for years,and someone can be saved on their deathbed,that did not care about Jesus before the deathbed,and now they are on their deathbed and they want to say help me Jesus.

To the ones who lived for Jesus for years,it puts the person on the deathbed confessing Christ,in the spotlight of someone who did not care about God,did not care to do right,was not thankful,a disobedient,no caring individual,that played around enjoying fleshy pleasures galore,but now that they are on their deathbed with nowhere to go,cannot enjoy those fleshy things anymore,the worldly pleasure ride is over,now they want to confess Christ,seeing they are ready to die,and cannot play around in the world anyway.

It can make a person who lived for Christ for years,kind of mad.

But Jesus said they too can be saved,and Jesus said it is evil to be mad at those people who lived for God a short time,because they receive the same reward.

endtimes12 · Jan 31, 2012

just a thought based on biblical teaching... some one who sins like that better make sure he is in the faith... also many people tht practice this sin probably doesn't feel godly sorrow for doing i just sorry they did it.

xXTroubleXx · Jan 31, 2012

Thanks for the responses!

Just a general reminder, I understand that people on here believe homosexuality is a sin, and I'm not contesting what the bible clearly says about being gay. Whether or not I think being gay is actually a sin or if a gay person can or cannot change his sexual orientation is irrelevant to the thread because I'm just using homosexuality as an example of a sin in the scenario (I also referenced murder and pedophilia). I'm not challenging what the bible says or doesn't say about homosexuality (and the others).

When I said "A gay christian cannot become straight", what I meant was not to state that as a fact (whether or not I believe it is is irrelevant), but I meant it to mean that a gay christian in my example (despite praying, therapy, group help etc) could not find a way to become straight and thus chose to simply add 'being gay' to the list of repetitive sins just like any other sins that might happen on a daily basis. I did not mean to type that sentence to mean that part of the topic of the thread was to explain why gay people can or cannot change.

Also, whether or not I think any of this is fair is irrelevant because it's not what I take issue with (at least not here lol).

Sorry, just want to be clear about that because that is not part of my question, but if you want to nitpick those issues anyway, feel free, just know that its not the issue I was meaning to bring up... although I figured such language would inherently invoke those responses.

1Christianwarrior316 · Jan 31, 2012

xXTroubleXx said:

I believe it could all be summed up for you with this verse, if like you said that he/she whole-heartedly repents of said sin.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

1Christianwarrior316 · Jan 31, 2012

HearOhIsreal said:

I have to disagree with this statement.

Scripture says,
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Homosexuality is a sin. And if it goes unconfessed do you think there is forgiveness for it? When we put our ways above God's ways we put ourselves in peril.
I agree with A-Omega’s statement, ”A deathbed confessions means nothing without true faith.”

Scripture says,
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

HearOhIsreal · Jan 31, 2012

1Christianwarrior316 said:

I have to disagree with this statement.

Scripture says,
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Homosexuality is a sin. And if it goes unconfessed do you think there is forgiveness for it? When we put our ways above God's ways we put ourselves in peril.
I agree with A-Omega’s statement, ”A deathbed confessions means nothing without true faith.”

Scripture says,
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Thanks for the reply. But what I meant by "living a righteous life through Christ" was overcoming homosexuality through Christ. For all things are possible through Him.

DinoDillinger · Jan 31, 2012

xXTroubleXx said:

Well Trouble, I thought I would give you this passage and let you judge yourself. I would not want to interpose my understanding on you on this passage because it can be contentious.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hope this helps

greatblue · Jan 31, 2012

The first issue I have with the OP is the question on why someone can be a "good" person and go to hell because he or she fails to believe in God, confess sins, and repent. Isaiah 64:6 explains, "But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags..." Our purest definition of human goodness is actually not good, even though we may think it is. If we die in this false goodness, we do not die in God, namely Jesus who is pure goodness, but in/as sinful man. Genesis clearly states we will not receive eternal life in that fallen state...hence our need for God's gift of Jesus Christ.

Obviously, the worst of all sinners...well, if you're really digging in to capture just who Jesus is--He wore it. Whatever that worst of the worst is--serial murders, rapists, pedophiles--Jesus Christ bore all punishment in His body for us...you. That is the SOOOO NOT FAIR aspect of the story, but it shows Jesus as God's sole instrument of salvation, so that we indeed call Him God. And, that should bring you to your knees crying out "Holy!" in pure reverence and adoration.

And really here is the crux, for me at least. No matter who you are, and the bible is full of stories, as well as time, and this site, proving that a personal encounter with Jesus Christ changes a life. Any person can come to Christ and struggle with a specific sin, certainly. Perhaps it is sexual thought (pick one), deed, or some sort of personal bondage to a self-sin: obesity, greed, self-harm, etc. The identifier is evidence of a desire to overcome and shame if you don't. Paul's discussion of the flesh and indwelling sin in Romans 7 & 8 remind us that while will hate our sins, we may see ourselves falling to them again. This is because we are not yet perfect, but we know we need to ditch that sin to be perfect. Then through confession, repentance, and continual refinement we are cleansed. We call it a walk. I have layers of darkness...and we all do. God's light always shines, but we're not always lifting the lid to let it in the way we should.

The world parades false goodness. Nobody is good. The world and its system = Doom.

duewell · Feb 1, 2012

i think the argument most would make is that you cannot continue to live in sin if you want forgiveness. one thing people forget is that even after becoming a Christian we are still sinners living in a sinful world. it can be said that after being born of the spirit we are free from the law of sin and then not accountable for sins committed afterword. those are saints. the intentional sin and the unintentional sin is still sin. not one of us was righteous except for Jesus. he died for everyone who would believe in him, regardless of their sins or the length of time they committed them.

a very controversial argument can be made using the standards set by how homosexuality is treated. i was a thief i asked for forgiveness a year later i stole again. i was a liar and asked for forgiveness a year later i lied again. i was a murder and asked for forgiveness and a year later i murdered again. these things happen to all of us on some level or another. the mistake we make is trying to justify our actions. i stole to feed my family, i lied to protect my family, i murdered to protect my family. i did it for love. you can apply this to anyone, believer and non believer alike, regardless of their profession. personal justification does not invalidate sin.

now to get feathers really ruffled. anyone who engages in violence against others is a sinner. regardless of their justification. if someone can engage in violence all their life or even one time and still be considered a Christian. i see no reason other sinners cannot do the same. or would you justify someone being able to sin based on what you felt was needed. by your definition of whats right? is a Christian ever in the right to violate one of the ten commandments? after being saved has a christian ever violated one of them for whatever justification? is anyone so perfect as to say, i have been saved and i have never sinned again a day in my life? do you own a gun? have you ever used a gun? would you stand before Jesus with your gun and say i have the right to defend myself and my way of life! i had to kill them Jesus so those people couldn't kill others just face facts people, even as saved Christians we are still sinners. everyone should stop trying to justify whatever sins they are doing and start accepting there is no one to blame for their sins but themselves.

are you a sinner? struggle with addiction? have ethical issues? relapse time and again? good news, Jesus is looking for you.

duewell
the rainbow connection

xXTroubleXx · Feb 1, 2012

duewell said:

So, if a gay person is "born of the spirit" he is "not accountable for sins committed afterword"? I've never heard an explanation like that before. Can you go into more detail about that? Or does anyone else agree/disagree? Or can a gay person not be "born of the spirit"? I'm not sure I really understand.

CBM82 · Feb 1, 2012

I think what separates Christians from everyone else is that we "struggle" against sin. I believe someone can be truly saved and still struggle with same sex desires, but once again, the key word is "struggle". I believe if someone accepts being gay as something that is ok and they just indulge in it...they are not truly a christian. I believe someone can have a moment of weakness and give in to a homosexual desire and thats not necessarily gonna make their Christianity "void". You just have to repent and put forth a sincere effort not to do it again.

I think sometimes we take Gods grace for granted though. We think "well, Jesus died for my sins and God will forgive me, so what the heck...might as well just give in and repent later". Thats a very bad and dangerous attitude to have and I've been guilty of that myself at times. I do believe homosexuality is a choice to a degree, just like everything else in life. Because even though you may not have chosen to have those desires, it is still your choice whether or not you act on them. Life is all about making choices. You can choose to do or not do.

And there is no such thing as a good person going to hell because no one is truly good. Without a savoir we are all hell bound.

iamsoandso · Feb 1, 2012

because of sin the lord,,,,will take away the child,,,,,,,how will an man who discovers an man have an son to "in heir-et his house?"his son will not go unto an woman and bear him an son,,,,,,,,,,,,to carry on his house ,,,,,,,,,,,,,and when he die,,, his whole house will want,,,,,,,,,he will not have sons and they will not have cousins,,,,,,,,,will you go against the nature in you and bring forth seed? and bear child?,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is against your nature??????,,,,,,,,who will proceed?,,,,your son or your daughter????????????who will be after you and of you????????????????who will carry your name on till the end??????????????,,,,,,,,,,,,,will the lord pore out an spirit upon you and blot out your name because you cannot be encouraged?????will he stop your bloodline in you????????????and you will fall upon another woman,,,,,,,and then your child will cease??????????????????,,,,,,,,,,,"you" ,,,,,,,,,"you',,,, "you" you will not live but this one short life,,,,,,,,,,,,and "you",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you will kill and seal and lust,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and you must go against the present thing,,,,,,,,,,,you must pick up your son and kiss him and he will,,,,,,kiss you mother

iamsoandso · Feb 1, 2012

now your death will not come,,,,,,,,,have no fear,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you have an while,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to love your son

Trax · Feb 1, 2012

xXTroubleXx said:

In my first posted, I focused on those of a reprobate mind. Not eveyone, who commits a sin,
falls under that category. I wanted to make that clear. However, satan and the world wants
people to think their way. God may have created people to remain single, to fully work for Him.
Not being attracted to the opposite sex may not mean a person is a homosexual. But the world
offers one advice, you're a homosexual, its nature, be proud. The world is clueless in spiritual
matters. The church may offer, repent and marry a woman. But in some cases, the Lord may
have created the person to remain single, so he/she can fully devote themselves to doing His
work. If a person isn't saved, they'll most likely fall into the trap of the world. If the temptation of the opposite sex isn't there, then satan knows he can get them the other way.

Single people can devote themselves more to God's work, more than married people.
(1 Cor 7:32-34). If we are closing in on end times, I would expect to see a lot of single people
out working for God. They are the ones who are most available. In some cases of homosexuals,
some probably have been detoured from what God had planned for them, by simply not knowing
spiritual things or not being told another reason. Just something to think about.

Repenting Before Death/homosexuality..

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