If I am saved by faith in Christ and I love God and my family, is not that a good work of faith? If I forgive my brother that sins against me, is that not a good work of faith? If I feed the hungry, love my neighbor and give a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, is not that a good work of faith? If I seek love and cover a multitude of sin, is not that faith that works by love (Gal 5:6)? Is not love the fruit of the Spirit, so if I love am I not bearing God's fruit? If I lay my life down and do the laundry for my mother who is sick, is not that a work of love? What is the fruit that you are talking about and why would I be deceived in doing these works that are done by faith and motivated by the love of God? Didn't Paul say that he needed someone to naturally care for the state of the Philippians and sent Timothy in (Phil 2:20)? When children honor their mother and father is that not profitable for them in the Lord? There are so man good works that we have been ordained to do in the will of God, who is the one that is going to judge what these works should be? The first and greatest work that every sinner begins with is the work to believe on the Son of God (John 6:29-35).
Did you know that the phase ''faith only'' is used only one time in all of scripture?
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Well strictly it is not faith alone, but faith alone makes sense in the right context. For example, if you were abraham and believed God's promise before you did anything to show faith in that promise, as it says, he was justified before God simply by believing. Then that is saved by faith alone. Faith devoid of works indicate no faith at all. But the point of justification I believe is at the point of faith in the heart, which only God can see, not at the point of works which show that faith.
Watchmen,
If what you say is true, then the theif on the cross never made it. What about our loved ones that we have lead to the Lord on their death bed, what is their fruit? What is the fruit of the soldier that cries out in a fox hole for salvation and dies, did he make it by faith and where is the fruit of his works? What about the man that was sentenced to death and a chaplan leads him to Christ on the day of his execution, are all his sins forgiven and will he make it to heaven when all he was able to do is believe by faith? Are you going to tell us that God's love is not enough to save us by grace through faith because we have not produced some kind of works to make sure the love of God has really saved us? If you believe that, then you are blind and can not see the love of God for what it really is. How can you say that you have the love of God in you by faith, when you have to do more than believe to receive it?
If what you say is true, then the theif on the cross never made it. What about our loved ones that we have lead to the Lord on their death bed, what is their fruit? What is the fruit of the soldier that cries out in a fox hole for salvation and dies, did he make it by faith and where is the fruit of his works? What about the man that was sentenced to death and a chaplan leads him to Christ on the day of his execution, are all his sins forgiven and will he make it to heaven when all he was able to do is believe by faith? Are you going to tell us that God's love is not enough to save us by grace through faith because we have not produced some kind of works to make sure the love of God has really saved us? If you believe that, then you are blind and can not see the love of God for what it really is. How can you say that you have the love of God in you by faith, when you have to do more than believe to receive it?
A
Faith without works is dead?
Stepping out in faith to believe the word,
like choosing to not worry about the clothes you wear or the food you eat and trusting the Lord to provide what you need is the works talked about here.
You can not just say you believe without faith in action,
Action requires work, faith is an action word!
Stepping out in faith to believe the word,
like choosing to not worry about the clothes you wear or the food you eat and trusting the Lord to provide what you need is the works talked about here.
You can not just say you believe without faith in action,
Action requires work, faith is an action word!
watchmen,
Every believer knows that they are saved by the work of God's grace through faith in Christ. What you are trying to tell believers is that there must be some fruit or evidence of their faith that comes in the form of works that shows that they are truly saved. That is what you are preaching. Grace must come through faith in Jesus Christ and not by any works of righteousness except the work of God which is to believe upon the Son. Then the Holy Spirit enters the believer's life and begins to bear the fruit of love in the heart (Rom 5:5).... then the fruit of joy...then peace...ect. That believer receives the gift of God's righteousness that can never be taken from him. Even if that believer never lead one soul to Christ, they are saved forever by grace and through faith in the finished work of Christ.
The believer has been ordained unto good works, but those good works do not maintain their salvation but reveal the goodness of God toward sinners. Faith without works is dead is not saying that the believer is dead but rather that faith must be active not passive and it works or is energized by love (Gal 5:6). Example: If I sin, I immediately go to God by the action of faith and receive grace. The activity of my faith is relying upon what Christ did to that sin on Calvary. I receive grace for my sin, that was crucified by Christ, and confess it to God and lay it aside because it has been judged by Christ's death on the cross. The blood of Christ covers my sin and God gives me grace to not continue in sin and to be renewed so that I can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That takes place in an instant in the heart with no probation from God and I go on resting in the faith of the Son of God who died and gave His life for me and I do not frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:20,21). I do not have to prove that I am clean and forgiven by revealing any kind of fruit or demonstrating any kind of good work, because that has already been done for me by Jesus Christ through grace and love which restored my fellowship with God. In that I have gained grace and peace and lost nothing (1Pt 1:2).
Every believer knows that they are saved by the work of God's grace through faith in Christ. What you are trying to tell believers is that there must be some fruit or evidence of their faith that comes in the form of works that shows that they are truly saved. That is what you are preaching. Grace must come through faith in Jesus Christ and not by any works of righteousness except the work of God which is to believe upon the Son. Then the Holy Spirit enters the believer's life and begins to bear the fruit of love in the heart (Rom 5:5).... then the fruit of joy...then peace...ect. That believer receives the gift of God's righteousness that can never be taken from him. Even if that believer never lead one soul to Christ, they are saved forever by grace and through faith in the finished work of Christ.
The believer has been ordained unto good works, but those good works do not maintain their salvation but reveal the goodness of God toward sinners. Faith without works is dead is not saying that the believer is dead but rather that faith must be active not passive and it works or is energized by love (Gal 5:6). Example: If I sin, I immediately go to God by the action of faith and receive grace. The activity of my faith is relying upon what Christ did to that sin on Calvary. I receive grace for my sin, that was crucified by Christ, and confess it to God and lay it aside because it has been judged by Christ's death on the cross. The blood of Christ covers my sin and God gives me grace to not continue in sin and to be renewed so that I can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That takes place in an instant in the heart with no probation from God and I go on resting in the faith of the Son of God who died and gave His life for me and I do not frustrate the grace of God (Gal 2:20,21). I do not have to prove that I am clean and forgiven by revealing any kind of fruit or demonstrating any kind of good work, because that has already been done for me by Jesus Christ through grace and love which restored my fellowship with God. In that I have gained grace and peace and lost nothing (1Pt 1:2).
James is discussing Faith within the context of Salvation. He makes this abundantly clear when he asks, "Tell me brothers, suppose someone says he has faith but NOT works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?" The rest of chapter 2 makes it abundantly clear what James' answer is.
Many Protestants believe that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected, as this thread states.This is a burr under the saddle for Protestants, for, if they wanted to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.
When Apostolic Christians point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by pejoratively labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us."
But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term "dead faith." That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition.
The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting "dead faith" wherever the text mentions faith.
On that reading, people would be boasting of having dead faith (v. 14). James would be making the redundant statement that dead faith without works is dead (vv. 17, 26) and offering to prove that dead faith is barren (v. 20). He would be offering to show his dead faith by his works (v. 18) and commending people ("you do well") for having dead faith (v. 19). He would be telling us that Abraham’s dead faith was active with his works (v. 22) and that Abraham believed God with dead faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (v. 23).
Another attempt to impugn "faith" in this passage uses the statement "Even the demons believe—and shudder" (v. 19). People ask, "What kind of faith do demons have? Only mere intellectual assent. They intellectually assent to the truths of theology, but this is as far as their faith goes." This understanding of the faith in James 2 is closer to the truth, but it still creates problems—in fact, many of the same problems.
People would be boasting of having mere intellectual assent (v. 14). James would be offering to show others his mere intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). He would be commending people for having mere intellectual assent (v. 19) and saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was active along with his works (v. 22). He would be saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was reckoned to him as righteousness, contradicting verse 23, which would state that mere intellectual assent is barren.
The "mere intellectual assent" solution fails just as the "dead faith" one does. In fact, any solution that impugns the faith James is talking about as a bad or inferior faith will fail. This can be seen by going through the passage and substituting "bad faith" and "inferior faith" wherever "faith" is mentioned. Such solutions fail because James does not see anything wrong with the faith he is talking about. The faith isn’t the problem; the fact it is alone is the problem.
To understand what kind of faith James has in mind, one must avoid the temptation to read something bad into it. This is where the "mere intellectual assent" solution went wrong. Its advocates correctly identified verse 19 as the key to understanding the faith being discussed, which is intellectual assent. The problems were created by adding the term "mere" to make it sound bad. Leave "mere" off, and the problems vanish. Someone can go around boasting that he intellectually assents to God’s truth (v. 14), prompting James’s need to show that intellectual assent without works is dead and barren (vv. 17, 20, 26). He could offer to show his intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). And he could commend a person for having intellectual assent (v. 19a), while saying that even the demons have it though it doesn’t stop them from shuddering at the prospect of God’s wrath (v. 19b).
Finally, he can speak of how Abraham’s intellectual assent was active with and completed by his works (v. 22) and can conclude that man is not justified by intellectual assent alone (v. 24). James views intellectual assent as good thing ("you do well," v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26).
Many Protestants believe that we are justified by "faith alone," but the expression "faith alone" only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected, as this thread states.This is a burr under the saddle for Protestants, for, if they wanted to use terms the way the Bible does, they would have to give up their chief slogan.
When Apostolic Christians point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by pejoratively labeling it "dead faith." They treat "faith without works is dead" (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, "If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us."
But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term "dead faith." That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition.
The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting "dead faith" wherever the text mentions faith.
On that reading, people would be boasting of having dead faith (v. 14). James would be making the redundant statement that dead faith without works is dead (vv. 17, 26) and offering to prove that dead faith is barren (v. 20). He would be offering to show his dead faith by his works (v. 18) and commending people ("you do well") for having dead faith (v. 19). He would be telling us that Abraham’s dead faith was active with his works (v. 22) and that Abraham believed God with dead faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (v. 23).
Another attempt to impugn "faith" in this passage uses the statement "Even the demons believe—and shudder" (v. 19). People ask, "What kind of faith do demons have? Only mere intellectual assent. They intellectually assent to the truths of theology, but this is as far as their faith goes." This understanding of the faith in James 2 is closer to the truth, but it still creates problems—in fact, many of the same problems.
People would be boasting of having mere intellectual assent (v. 14). James would be offering to show others his mere intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). He would be commending people for having mere intellectual assent (v. 19) and saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was active along with his works (v. 22). He would be saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was reckoned to him as righteousness, contradicting verse 23, which would state that mere intellectual assent is barren.
The "mere intellectual assent" solution fails just as the "dead faith" one does. In fact, any solution that impugns the faith James is talking about as a bad or inferior faith will fail. This can be seen by going through the passage and substituting "bad faith" and "inferior faith" wherever "faith" is mentioned. Such solutions fail because James does not see anything wrong with the faith he is talking about. The faith isn’t the problem; the fact it is alone is the problem.
To understand what kind of faith James has in mind, one must avoid the temptation to read something bad into it. This is where the "mere intellectual assent" solution went wrong. Its advocates correctly identified verse 19 as the key to understanding the faith being discussed, which is intellectual assent. The problems were created by adding the term "mere" to make it sound bad. Leave "mere" off, and the problems vanish. Someone can go around boasting that he intellectually assents to God’s truth (v. 14), prompting James’s need to show that intellectual assent without works is dead and barren (vv. 17, 20, 26). He could offer to show his intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). And he could commend a person for having intellectual assent (v. 19a), while saying that even the demons have it though it doesn’t stop them from shuddering at the prospect of God’s wrath (v. 19b).
Finally, he can speak of how Abraham’s intellectual assent was active with and completed by his works (v. 22) and can conclude that man is not justified by intellectual assent alone (v. 24). James views intellectual assent as good thing ("you do well," v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26).
S
Did you know the word BIBLE never shows up in the Scripture? What in the world is the matter with people? (That is a rhetorical question - I know the answer - check out Romans 1:22, 2Timothy 3:7, Hebrews 5:11-14, just to get centered on the problem.) I would like to think that we could use Scripture to settle matters of faith - for those of us who profess to believe the Bible anyway - but it is obvious too many have their little pet verses that they twist to their own destruction - which they don’t understand in context with other Scripture - which they don’t understand in context of historical setting - which they don’t understand in context of WHO is being addressed - which they don’t rightly divide according to 2Timothy 2:15 - which they don’t understand in light of the “whole counsel of God” - etc., etc., etc. How in the name of everything that is right and Holy can anyone who has ever given diligent study to the Books of Romans and Galatians - just to name two - come away with such a convoluted understanding of what the Bible is teaching? Since you probably won’t STUDY that much Scripture in a lifetime, at least meditate on Romans 3:19-28, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 10:1-4, Galatians 2:16-21, and Galatians 3:1-14. Now, let’s deal with what the Scriptures are saying - not denominational teachings, church covenants, statements of faith, catechisms, confessions of faith, and the rest of that stuff. Let’s just discuss what the Scripture says WITH NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. Can you do that?
S
Oh man, that just got me rolling on the floor.....LOL. 
S
OH ABSOLUTELY IT CAN AND DOES! Try reading 2Perer 1:20. Maybe meditation on 2Timothy 2:15 will help. The only way to understand Scripture is to let the Scripture interpret itself. The Bible is it's own self-contained commentary! I'll tell you what you do. Get a Strong's Bible Concordance and look up the word FAITH, read and study EVERY verse of Scripture where that word FAITH shows up. Then look up the word WORKS, read and study EVERY verse of Scripture where that word WORKS shows up. Line upon line and precept upon precept. Comparison and contrast. I GUARANTEE YOU that if you are a saved person with the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in you, you will come away with a solid understanding of the faith and works issue without anyone telling you anything! Why don’t you test it out to see whether or not these things be so?
S
See, the problem with you is you won't answer the clear passages of Scripture I provided. I believe someone else in this thread already answered you. The passage in James is discussing a practical outworking of genuine faith. ALL GENUINE FAITH PRODUCES WORKS! BUT NO WORKS PRODUCE FAITH! If a man says he has faith but there is no demonstration in his life of that reality, that leads you to the conclusion he does not have saving faith - AS MOST TODAY DON'T - no matter what they may profess. I have answered it again for you. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS TRUE - YOU ONLY WANT TO SPOUT OFF THINGS YOU DON'T KNOW NOR UNDERSTAND. Clouds without rain! Your interest is to try and convince SOMEONE you've got some sense - BUT YOU DON'T. Quit using circular reasoning - it only shows how ridiculous you really are! And understand, any text you bring up about “works” can be properly understood in the light of the rest of the body of scripture. And until you are man enough to step up to the plate and respond to the very few simple passages I provided - DON'T WASTE MY TIME SONNY! Go learn some Bible and then we’ll talk.
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