EX NIHILO (Created out of Nothing)

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May 3, 2009
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#1
"And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, 'Hail, Hermas!' And looking up to her, I said, 'Lady, what doest thou here? 'And she answered me, 'I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.' 'Lady,' said I, 'are you to be the subject of my accusation?' 'No,' said she; 'but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me."
Hermas,Shepard,1:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:9

"First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing."
Hermas,Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20

"Let us turn now, O King, to the elements in themselves, that we may make clear in regard to them, that they are not gods, but a created thing, liable to ruin and change, which is of the same nature as man; whereas God is imperishable and unvarying, and invisible, while yet He sees, and overrules, and transforms all things."
Aristides,Apology,4(A.D. 140),in ANF,X:266

"God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground of all being, in as much as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but in as much as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power , the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists."
Tatian,Address to the Greeks,5:1(A.D. 175),in ANF,II:67

"For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370

"And further, as God, because He is uncreated, is also unalterable; so if matter, too, were uncreated, it also would be unalterable, and equal to God; for that which is created is mutable and alterable, but that which is uncreated is immutable and unalterable. And what great thing is it if God made the world out of existent materials? For even a human artist, when he gets material from some one, makes of it what he pleases. But the power of God is manifested in this, that out of things that are not He makes whatever He pleases; just as the bestowal of life and motion is the prerogative of no other than God alone." Theophilus of Antioch,Autolycus,2:4(A.D. 181), in ANF,II:95

"And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing." Theophilus of Antioch,Autolycus,2:10(A.D. 181), in ANF,II:97-98

"[H]e[Hermogenes] takes from Him everything which is God, since he will not have it that He made all things of nothing." Tertullian,Hermogenes,1-2,in ANF,III:477

"The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding word, His arranging wisdom, His mighty power, brought forth from nothing this entire mass of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty; whence also the Greeks have bestowed on it the name of Cosmos."
Tertullian,Apology,17:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:31

"Now, with regard to this rule of faith-that we may from this point acknowledge what it is which we defend-it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son."
Tertullian,Prescription Against the Heretics,13:1(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:249

"For if God produced all things whatever out of nothing, He will be able to draw forth from nothing even the flesh which had fallen into nothing; or if He moulded other things out of matter, He will be able to call forth the flesh too from somewhere else, into whatever abyss it may have been engulphed."
Tertullian, Resurrection of the Flesh,11(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:553

"On the first day God made what He made out of nothing. But on the other days He did not make out of nothing, but out of what He had made on the first day, by moulding it according to His pleasure."
Hippolytus, Six Days Work(Hexameron)(A.D. 217),in ANF,V:163

"First, That there is one God, who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed."
Origen, Fundamental Doctrines,Preface 1(A.D. 225),in ANF,IV:239

"Therefore arming him, and strengthening him, and so bearing her son by a more blessed birth, she said, "O son, pity me that bare thee ten months in the womb, and gave thee milk for three years, and nourished thee and brought thee up to this age; I pray thee, O son, look upon the heaven and the earth; and having considered all the things which are in them, understand that out of nothing God made these things and the human race."
Cyprian, Exhortation to Martyrdom,11(A.D. 253),in ANF,V:504-505

"For Thou createdst all things out of nothing; wherefore also Thou changest and transformest all things as Thou wilt, seeing they are Thine, and Thou alone art God."
Methodius, Discourse on the Resurrection,1:14(A.D. 300),in ANF,VI:369

"For all things are placed under Thee as their Cause and Author, as He who brought all things into being out of nothing, and gave to what was unstable a firm coherence; as the connecting Band and Preserver of that which has been brought into being; as the Framer of things by nature different; as He who, with wise and steady hand, holds the helm of the universe; as the very Principle of all good order; as the irrefragable Bond of concord and peace." Methodius, Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna,6(A.D. 305),in ANF,VI:387

"But if he conceives in his mind how great is the immensity of that divine work, when before it was nothing, yet that by the power and wisdom of God it was made out of nothing-a work which could only be commenced and accomplished by one-he will now understand that that which has been established by one is much more easily governed by one." Lactanius,Divine Institutes,1:3(A.D. 307),in ANF,VII:12

"Nor were they able at all to understand how much greater and more wonderful He is, who made these things out of nothing."
Lactanius,Divine Institutes,2:5(A.D. 307),in ANF,VII:47

"Let no one inquire of what materials God made these works so great and wonderful: for He made all things out of nothing." Lactanius,Divine Institutes,2:9(A.D. 307),in ANF,VII:53

"For they ignorantly affirm that one of two things must necessarily be said, either that He is from things which are not, or that there are two unbegottens; nor do those ignorant men know how great is the difference between the unbegotten Father, and the things which were by Him created from things which are not, as well the rational as the irrational. Between which two, as holding the middle place, the only begotten nature of God, the Word by which the Father formed all things out of nothing, was begotten of the true Father Himself. As in a certain place the Lord Himself testified, saying, 'Every one that loveth Him that begat, loveth Him also that is begotten of Him.' "
Alexander of Alexandria,On the Arian Heresy,1:11(A.D. 326),in ANF,VI:295

"Is God then, who created us out of nothing, unable to raise again those who exist and are fallen(9)?"
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,18:6(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:135

"For the elements of the world have come into being out of nothing, but Christ's continuity of existence did not begin in the non-existent, nor did He ever begin to exist, but He took from the beginning a beginning which is eternal."
Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,53(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,VIII:153

"Thus do they vainly speculate. But the godly teaching and the faith according to Christ brands their foolish language as godlessness. For it knows that it was not spontaneously, because forethought is not absent; nor of existing matter, because God is not weak; but that out of nothing, and without its having any previous existence, God made the universe to exist through His word."
Athanasius,Incarnation,3(A.D. 365),in NPNF2,IV:38

"Studious listener, think of all these creations which God has drawn out of nothing, think of all those which my speech has left out, to avoid tediousness, and not to exceed my limits; recognise everywhere the wisdom of God; never cease to wonder, and, through, every creature, to glorify the Creator."
Basil,Hexameron,8:7(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,VIII:99

"Thus, through light and water the earth brought forth everything. While God is able to bring forth everything from the earth without these things, it was his will to show that there was nothing created on earth that was not created for the purpose of mankind or for his service."
Ephrem,Commentary on Genesis,1(ante A.D. 376),in FOC,91:92

"The word of God clearly declares that the Angels were neither created after the stars nor before heaven and earth. It must be regarded as certain and unshakable the opinion that says: None of the created things did exist before heaven and earth, because 'in the beginning God created heaven and earth' so that this was the beginning of all creation, before which none of the created things existed."
Epiphanius,Panarion,65:5(A.D. 377), in PAN

"But if God made all these things out of nothing (for "He spake and they were made, He commanded and they were created"[1]), why should we wonder that which has been should be brought to life again, since we see produced that which had not been?"
Ambrose,On the belief of the Resurrection,2:64(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,IX:184

"Believe that all that is in the world, both all that is seen and all that is unseen, was made out of nothing by God, and is governed by the Providence of its Creator, and will receive a change to a better state."
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration on Holy Baptism,45(A.D. 383),in NPNF2,VII:376-377

"We return to our plain statement, and we assert, that He Who brought all creation into being out of nothing is the Creator of things seen in substantial existence, not of unsubstantial words having no existence but in the sound of the voice and the lisp of the tongue."
Gregory of Nyssa, Answer to Eunomius' Second Book(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,V:287

"And then He made man, who was not a man before, of different parts, giving to him a soul made out of nothing. But now He will restore the bodies, which have been dissolved, to the souls that are still in being: for the rising again belongs to things laid down, not to things which have no being. He therefore that made the original bodies out of nothing, and fashioned various forms of them, will also again revive and raise up those that are dead."
Apostolic Constitutions,5,1:7(A.D. 400),in ANF,VII:441

"For Thou art eternal knowledge, everlasting sight, unbegotten hearing, untaught wisdom, the first by nature, and the measure of being, and beyond all number; who didst bring all things out of nothing into being by Thy only begotten Son."
Apostolic Constitutions,8,2:12(A.D. 400),in ANF,VII:486-487

"Thou didst create heaven and earth, not out of Thyself, for then they would be equal to Thine Only-begotten, and thereby even to Thee; and in no wise would it be right that anything should be equal to Thee which was not of Thee. And aught else except Thee there was not whence Thou mightest create these things, O God, One Trinity, and Trine Unity; and, therefore, out of nothing didst Thou create heaven and earth,-a great thing and a small,because Thou art Almighty and Good, to make all things good, even the great heaven and the small earth. Thou wast, and there was nought else from which Thou didst create heaven and earth; two such things, one near unto Thee, the other near to nothing, -one to which Thou shouldest be superior, the other to which nothing should be inferior."
Augustine,Confessions,12:7(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,I:177

"Moreover, the bad will, though it be not in harmony with, but opposed to nature, inasmuch as it is a vice or blemish, yet it is true of it as of all vice, that it cannot exist except in a nature, and only in a nature created out of nothing, and not in that which the Creator has begotten of Himself, as He begot the Word, by whom all things were made. For though God formed man of the dust of the earth, yet the earth itself, and every earthly material, is absolutely created out of nothing; and man's soul, too, God created out of nothing, and joined to the body, when He made man."
Augustine,City of God,14:11(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,II:271-272

"But God, through the exercise of will alone, has brought all things into existence out of nothing. Now there is the same difference between God and man in begetting and generating."
John of Damascus,Orthodox Faith,8(A.D. 743),in NPNF2,VIII:7
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#2
I would be much more impressed if you would use actual Biblical Scripture. As it is, I am dissapointed because, in scanning, I see some truths that are Biblical, but you evidently don't know the Bible well enough to quote that book and resort to writings that, for whatever reason, did not make the cut when it came to being included in the final compiliation of Holy Scripture. And then instead of actually giving the names of the books and authors, you use initials which mean little to most, if not all of us in the group. If you really want to make a point in this CHRISTIAN (Bible-reading, Jesus-following, Word-obeying, born again, works Because of Faith-doing people) group, use the Bible exclusively.
Maggie
Maggie
 
May 3, 2009
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#3
I would be much more impressed if you would use actual Biblical Scripture. As it is, I am dissapointed because, in scanning, I see some truths that are Biblical, but you evidently don't know the Bible well enough to quote that book and resort to writings that, for whatever reason, did not make the cut when it came to being included in the final compiliation of Holy Scripture. And then instead of actually giving the names of the books and authors, you use initials which mean little to most, if not all of us in the group. If you really want to make a point in this CHRISTIAN (Bible-reading, Jesus-following, Word-obeying, born again, works Because of Faith-doing people) group, use the Bible exclusively.
Maggie
Maggie
You are priceless. I really mean that. If you are so obsessed with the bible, I suggest you set up your own church and place that book on a pedestal, and kneel down and worship it. You evidently have no awareness of how pagan you sound. Christians use the bible as tool--NOTHING ELSE BUT A TOOL--to promote faith during the Liturgy of the Mass. Your comment is really inappropriate. Actually, it is more than inappropriate, it is OFFENSIVE to Christians.

How unfortunate you don't recognize these individuals, Early Church Fathers. Any christian would recognize them. So, what does that tell you about yourself? Hmmm.

Honestly though, I can't say I am "disappointed" in you because when I first "met" you in the context of a thread on Baptism, your posts quickly introduced me to the type of individual you are.
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#4
How unfortunate you don't recognize these individuals, Early Church Fathers. Any christian would recognize them. So, what does that tell you about yourself? Hmmm.
Never heard of them.
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#7
Eric wrote "Christians use the bible as tool--NOTHING ELSE BUT A TOOL--to promote faith during the Liturgy of the Mass. Your comment is really inappropriate. Actually, it is more than inappropriate, it is OFFENSIVE to Christians." On the contrary!! The BIBLE is God's manuscript TO US...His instruction guide as to how we are to live our lives. You think it is only a TOOL??? YOUR LOSS! It is His REVELATION of who He is.

That you elevate other books as equal to or above the Holy Bible shows gross lack of understaning both the character of God and His truth and mandates. Everywhere in the Bible where it is written "word of God", the name "Jesus" can be substituted without changing the meaning of the context. Read on!

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revelation 19:13
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 6:9
[ The Fifth Seal--Martyrs ] When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
  1. 1 Peter 1:23
    for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:22-24 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
  2. 2 Peter 3:5
    For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
    Hebrews 13:7
    Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
  3. 1 Timothy 4:5
    for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
    1 Timothy 4:4-6 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
  4. 2 Timothy 2:9
    for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
    2 Timothy 2:8-10 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Titus 2:5
    to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
    Titus 2:4-6 (in Context) Titus 2 (Whole Chapter)
  6. Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    Hebrews 4:11-13 (in Context) Hebrews 4 (Whole Chapter)
  7. Hebrews 6:5
    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    Hebrews 6:4-6 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter)
  8. Hebrews 11:3
    By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
  9. And look here at these: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...gin=1&spanend=73&startnumber=26&startnumber=1
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#8
The whole of Christiandom considers the Bible and the Bible ONLY to be God's WORD, His REVELATON of Himself to us. And within its pages, more than 4 times, it tells us to NOT ADD words to it...and that includes other books and writings from other writers.
That you, Eric, equate the Bible to other writings, is sad, and it truly reveals your lack of spiritual understanding. You could ask God for increased spiritual understanding....pray Eph 1:17-21 and Eph 3 17-21.
Maggie
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#9
Are you saying that I am not a Christian? Eric, you are in for a rude awakening some day. If your salvation by works fairy tale is true as you so vehemently declare, you'd think you would try to be a bit nicer. I've never ever seen a Christian say such nasty things to people as I've seen you do here - calling people names, telling them they are not real Christians, and talking down to them. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
N

NoahsMom

Guest
#10
Whats this thread about anyways...attacking people with words? Or, who attacks the most or the worst?
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#11
Whats this thread about anyways...attacking people with words? Or, who attacks the most or the worst?
I am sorry for my part in taking this off topic, but I'm tired of this gentleman's nastiness. Words hurt, and no one ever seems to call him on his name-calling and deriding. Yes, they are just words, and he certainly doesn't make me doubt my christianity, but by the same token, I don't come here so that someone can talk down to me and be nasty to me.
 
B

Baruch

Guest
#12
You are priceless. I really mean that. If you are so obsessed with the bible, I suggest you set up your own church and place that book on a pedestal, and kneel down and worship it. You evidently have no awareness of how pagan you sound. Christians use the bible as tool--NOTHING ELSE BUT A TOOL--to promote faith during the Liturgy of the Mass. Your comment is really inappropriate. Actually, it is more than inappropriate, it is OFFENSIVE to Christians.
I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am not offended by what MaggieMye has posted. I agree with her on that point of just relying on the scripture. For you to imply the scriptures as a tool when they were needed to confirm the fulfillment of the prophecies and to make discernment between false prophets and those that speak for God, I fail to see the validationary method of the scriptures behind some of the catholic doctrines of works.

How unfortunate you don't recognize these individuals, Early Church Fathers. Any christian would recognize them. So, what does that tell you about yourself? Hmmm.
What that tells me of her is that she would rather learn of God through the scriptures.

Paul said he was nothing for it is God that causes the increase. If the early church fathers were anything like Paul, they would rent their clothes and implore you to stop putting them on a pedestal.

Acts 14: 9The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Honestly though, I can't say I am "disappointed" in you because when I first "met" you in the context of a thread on Baptism, your posts quickly introduced me to the type of individual you are.
Never really could see how you or any catholic can convert anyone to catholicism with that attitude, but I have seen it happened... without that attitude, of course.

Is it true that catholics have become cynical in nature? With purgatory hanging over them, I can see why, but maybe there are other reasons for the cynicalism? Too many knuckle whipping with a ruler by nuns. maybe? I jest, of course.
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#13
The so-called "early church fathers" do not establish truth, scripture does. The "fathers" merely illustrate what the thinking was in their day. They show us what was being said and done.
 
May 3, 2009
246
2
0
#14
Eric wrote "Christians use the bible as tool--NOTHING ELSE BUT A TOOL--to promote faith during the Liturgy of the Mass. Your comment is really inappropriate. Actually, it is more than inappropriate, it is OFFENSIVE to Christians." On the contrary!! The BIBLE is God's manuscript TO US...His instruction guide as to how we are to live our lives. You think it is only a TOOL??? YOUR LOSS! It is His REVELATION of who He is.

That you elevate other books as equal to or above the Holy Bible shows gross lack of understaning both the character of God and His truth and mandates. Everywhere in the Bible where it is written "word of God", the name "Jesus" can be substituted without changing the meaning of the context. Read on!

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revelation 19:13
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 6:9

[ The Fifth Seal--Martyrs ] When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
  1. 1 Peter 1:23
    for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:22-24 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
  2. 2 Peter 3:5
    For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
    Hebrews 13:7
    Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
  3. 1 Timothy 4:5
    for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
    1 Timothy 4:4-6 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
  4. 2 Timothy 2:9
    for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
    2 Timothy 2:8-10 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Titus 2:5
    to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
    Titus 2:4-6 (in Context) Titus 2 (Whole Chapter)
  6. Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    Hebrews 4:11-13 (in Context) Hebrews 4 (Whole Chapter)
  7. Hebrews 6:5
    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    Hebrews 6:4-6 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter)
  8. Hebrews 11:3
    By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
  9. And look here at these: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...gin=1&spanend=73&startnumber=26&startnumber=1
Bible is an instruction guide? Really? I don’t believe the Bible claims to be the sole rule of faith.Such a doctrine is itself unbiblical. Please show me where the Bible claims such a status for itself."? How come none of your posted passages say anything like that? Hmmmm?

If you recognize Scripture for what it is, you’ll see it wasn’t intended to be an instructional tool. In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers. The Old Testament books were written for Jews, the New Testament books for people who already were Christians.

The Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise. Just look at the 27 books of the New Testament. You won’t find one that spells out the elements of the faith the way catechisms do or even the way the ancient creeds did. Those 27 books were written for the most part (excepting, for example, the Gospels and the general epistles such as James and, 1 and 2 Peter) as provisional documents addressed to particular audiences for particular purposes.

Most of the epistles were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems. Paul and most of the other New Testament writers sent letters to these local churches (e.g., 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians) in order to rectify these problems. There was no attempt on the part of the writers to impart a vast body of basic doctrinal instruction to non-believers nor even to simply summarize everything for the believers who received the letters."

How can the bible be the basis for the Christian faith since the Christian faith existed and flourished for years before the first book of the New Testament was written? The books of the New Testament were composed decades after Christ ascended into heaven, and it took centuries for there to be general agreement among Christians as to which books comprised the New Testament.

Maggie, I seriously suggest you acquire the writings of the early Church Fathers. This would be a good time to read from them. The writings are, at least in the case of the apostolic Fathers, rather short, and you will see that many of these writings seem every bit as orthodox and inspiring (not to confuse the term with "inspired") as the New Testament writings themselves. After reading some of the Early Church Fathers, then read the book of Philemon or 3 John or some other short canonical book.

I want you to tell me, what’s in these books that so obviously makes them inspired? If you didn’t know that Philemon was written by Paul or that 3 John was written by John, would you give either a second reading? Would you automatically assume they belong in the Bible as canonical Scripture? It’s not disrespectful to say they don’t have much doctrinal content in them—and that’s not surprising, since they’re too short to contain substantial doctrinal discussions. One can imagine the Christian Church easily surviving without either.

Neither book claims inspiration for itself. If there is, as a matter of fact, more solid Christian doctrine in other, non-canonical writings (that is—if they contain more Christian truths and no religious errors) then how can you say it’s obvious which books contain revelation and which don't?

Look Maggie, the fact is, the only reason you have the New Testament is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the early Apostolic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the [Apostolic] Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Apostolic Church [Catholic or Orthodox] made the right decision in determining the NT canon.

In Christ
 
May 3, 2009
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#15
The so-called "early church fathers" do not establish truth, scripture does. The "fathers" merely illustrate what the thinking was in their day. They show us what was being said and done.
Early Church Fathers helped clarify and develop the Truth. Jesus Christ, His Apostles and their Successors [The CHURCH], establish the Truth. The bible establishes NOTHING. Since the CHURCH wrote it, compiled it, how can a tool teach its MASTER? Hmmm.?

Bible is a book. Nothing more. It is extremely useful and important in the hands of the CHURCH, but in the wrong hands[such as here in this chatroom] is it worse than worthless.
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#16
Bible is an instruction guide? Really? I don’t believe the Bible claims to be the sole rule of faith. OK, guys, now we know. Eric does not believe the Bible. Therefore, neither does he believe the GOD of the Bible.Such a doctrine is itself unbiblical. HUH? Please show me where the Bible claims such a status for itself. I already gave you those scriptures. Didn't you look them up? How come none of your posted passages say anything like that? Hmmmm? They did, sir, but evidently you did not understand them. Must I post them again? Try 1 Tim 6:3, 1 Tim 4:1, 1 Tim 1:3, Eph 4:14, Mark 7:7 " )BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' (also Mt 15:9)
If you recognize Scripture for what it is, you’ll see it wasn’t intended to be an instructional tool. In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers. The Old Testament books were written for Jews, the New Testament books for people who already were Christians. THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD is written for all believers. And it was JEW who were Christians first!!
Jeremiah 35:13 13"Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, 'Go and say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, "(A)Will you not receive instruction by listening to My words?" declares the LORD. Also, Prov 16:20,


Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD; Therefore He instructs sinners in the way.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our
instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.


2 Thessalonians 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

Ecclesiastes 4:13
A poor yet wise lad is better than an old and foolish king who no longer knows how to receive
instruction.


The word 'instruction' is in the Bible 67 times.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for
reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;


The entirety of the Bible was written to believers…those born again, born of God, per John 3:3-17, Rom 10:9-10 and Rev 3:20

Which negates the rest of your post.


How can the bible be the basis for the Christian faith since the Christian faith existed and flourished for years before the first book of the New Testament was written? The books of the New Testament were composed decades after Christ ascended into heaven, and it took centuries for there to be general agreement among Christians as to which books comprised the New Testament. So what? It does not negate the truth of the NT. The OT supports the NT and the NT can look back upon the OT and see how its prophecy was fulfilled in Christ.

Maggie, I seriously suggest you acquire the writings of the early Church Fathers.
No need to. I have God's Holy Word and there is no other 'work' that supersedes its truth and authority. What don't you get about NOT adding words/books even to the writings of the Bible? Adding books written by you 'church fathers' is direct defiance of God's word!
I want you to tell me, what’s in these books that so obviously makes them inspired? If you didn’t know that Philemon was written by Paul or that 3 John was written by John, would you give either a second reading?
What good are your hypothetical questions? It's a waste of time because Scripture IS scripture and the writings of your church fathers IS NOT. Would you automatically assume they belong in the Bible as canonical Scripture? It’s not disrespectful to say they don’t have much doctrinal content in them—and that’s not surprising, since they’re too short to contain substantial doctrinal discussions. Not true .One can imagine the Christian Church easily surviving without either. Well, duh, I guess God wanted them included for His own reasons, that is…if you can't see the good of those Biblical writings.

Neither book claims inspiration for itself. If there is, as a matter of fact, more solid Christian doctrine in other, non-canonical writings (that is—if they contain more Christian truths and no religious errors) then how can you say it’s obvious which books contain revelation and which don't?
We are told to hold every thought captive and see if it lines up with the written word of God, the Bible. The reason those other books didn't make the cut is because there WAS ERROR or lack of some sort. 2 Corinthians 10:5
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Look Maggie, the fact is, the only reason you have the New Testament is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the early Apostolic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the [Apostolic] Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Apostolic Church [Catholic or Orthodox] made the right decision in determining the NT canon.
No, a Christian accepts the authority of the NT because they TRUST the GOD that inspired the writing of it AT HIS COMMAND.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Early Church Fathers helped clarify and develop the Truth. Excuse me? You think that your church fathers can outdo Christ who IS THE WORD OF GOD?? Jesus Christ, His Apostles and their Successors [The CHURCH], establish the Truth. JESUS IS THE TRUTH, the apostles (sent ones) established churches (groups of believers) in order that they could be taught the Gospel message in its completeness.The bible establishes NOTHING. How sad for you Eric. Without God's word, relaying His grace and mercy and the way for us to come to Him, through Jesus our ONLY mediator (not Mary for she is dead and awaiting her Savior like everyone else that has already died), WE ALL END UP IN HELL. Since the CHURCH wrote it, compiled it, how can a tool teach its MASTER? Hmmm.? The apostles wrote it, inspire by their HEAVENLY MASTER.
Bible is a book. Nothing more. It is extremely useful and important in the hands of the CHURCH, but in the wrong hands[such as here in this chatroom] is it worse than worthless.
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world (
this is man in his own understanding of worldly issues) is foolishness (worthless) with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. Pray and ask God for Col 1:9 "9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;"
Maggie
 

Sharp

Senior Member
May 5, 2009
2,569
21
38
#17
Well, I think this argument was definitely ex nihilo.
 
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mcap

Guest
#18
I would be much more impressed if you would use actual Biblical Scripture. As it is, I am dissapointed because, in scanning, I see some truths that are Biblical, but you evidently don't know the Bible well enough to quote that book and resort to writings that, for whatever reason, did not make the cut when it came to being included in the final compiliation of Holy Scripture. And then instead of actually giving the names of the books and authors, you use initials which mean little to most, if not all of us in the group. If you really want to make a point in this CHRISTIAN (Bible-reading, Jesus-following, Word-obeying, born again, works Because of Faith-doing people) group, use the Bible exclusively.
Maggie
Maggie
We must not forget that we as Christians are to accept all people,and our job is to win them to Christ thru love and kindness,not by thumping them on the head with our Bible.Satan loves it when stuff like this happens,we argue over who is right and who is wrong.Our religion is suffering because of this.
 
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NoahsMom

Guest
#19
Couldnt agree more MCAP.
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#20
Mcap: I stand corrected. I was trying to impress him with the importance of the Bible for Christians as opposed to other writings. He doesn't 'get it' .
My frustration over Eric's lack of understanding is no excuse for sarcasm. We should all pray for the eyes of his understanding to be opened.
Eric, I apologize.
Maggie
 
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