The Elect?

[tribesman]

I mean some people are never given the chance to hear (like people living in remote jungles, North Korean camps, the middle east, small children who die young, etc.), and some people hear and simply reject. What promises are you speaking of? I know God promised to redeem a people for Himself, and as long as you consider yourself saved that promise has been kept.

If these people didn't hear the gospel, then how can they be saved? And if God intended to save these people, who never heard the gospel, then didn't He fail to accomplish what He determined to do?

How then about this scripture:

Rom.9

[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
[27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
[28] For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
[29] And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

God made an unconditional covenant of promise (in Isaac) to redeem His Elect remnant (which does not equal literally all of mankind). That promise can not be thwarted by man.

Rom.9

[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[9] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
[10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[11] ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
[12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

[GreenNnice]

Where are the scriptures which gives evidence for what you are saying here? Jimmy has given very clear scriptures on who's doing the choosing.

You say it is possible for sinners to "change", if they just want to. How can a dead man change? Read Eph.2:1-3 about the nature of sinners.

I never said anyone can change on their own for salvation, Christ will show them unto Himself.

Rea-read my example of 'God's elect,' via the Obama's elect example. The people elect Obama by VOTING for Obama. An unbeliever chooses Christ by voting for Him, ah, but, ONLY AFTER having God give them talking points, so to speak, for CHOOSING Him

 

[feedm3]

If these people didn't hear the gospel, then how can they be saved? And if God intended to save these people, who never heard the gospel, then didn't He fail to accomplish what He determined to do?

You have no idea how God will judge those who never heard the gospel, and neither do I. What we do not is that God is just, he is not unfair, and how he decides to judge those who never heard, is the just decision.
Yet these "what if" or "how can God" questions do not take away the fact that I nor you are in this category of people. Therefore I would not base decisions about salvation on questions like these.

Jesus said to whom much is given much is required, and we have been given much, ie. the ability to pick up the word of God and read it. " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" that's God's choice, so if they did not hear the gospel how can they me saved?" is a question that only is brought up to lead into evil discussion, because that is going beyond what is written.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more

There you go, one who knew God's will (me and you) one who does not know, yet commits things worthy of punishment. The judgment is just


So do you think this logic leads to an either or? Ether they are saved, or God failed? They can be saved however God decides for them to be saved, yet for those of us who have heard the word of truth, that would not apply to us, because we know what we must do, God has told us.

How then about this scripture:
God made an unconditional covenant of promise (in Isaac) to redeem His Elect remnant (which does not equal literally all of mankind). That promise can not be thwarted by man.

And neither does it disqualify those who have never heard. He did redeem the remnant, the remnant of Israel, ie. all those Jews who did accepted Christ. After this, all who hear the word and choose to accept it, Jew or Gentile.

 

[tribesman]

I never said anyone can change on their own for salvation, Christ will show them unto Himself.

Rea-read my example of 'God's elect,' via the Obama's elect example. The people elect Obama by VOTING for Obama. An unbeliever chooses Christ by voting for Him, ah, but, ONLY AFTER having God give them talking points, so to speak, for CHOOSING Him

Either sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins or they are not. It cannot be both.

 

[feedm3]

And either Christians were dead in sins before they were Christians or they were not. Eph 2 says they were. It cannot be both ways. they could not have been saved before they were saved. if they were already saved, then they were never really dead in sins. Why did Paul say it?

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Hard to explain away Eph 2, it's message is so clear.



PS, Tribesman I know you are ignoring me for whatever reason I forgot now, but I am not trying to get a response out of you, just commenting on the arguments your making as well as others who hold to the same view, just for the sake of those who might read it. I just thought I would let you know so you did not think I was craving your attention or something.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I never said anyone can change on their own for salvation

Yes you did.


Right here:

It says that God cannot choose someone His chosen unless they CHOOSE Him first.

 

[hhhlga89]

If these people didn't hear the gospel, then how can they be saved? And if God intended to save these people, who never heard the gospel, then didn't He fail to accomplish what He determined to do?

How then about this scripture:
God made an unconditional covenant of promise (in Isaac) to redeem His Elect remnant (which does not equal literally all of mankind). That promise can not be thwarted by man.

They can't be saved, they are the many who are not chosen as a result of not hearing and responding to the gospel. I don't believe God thought he would (or could) save every man on earth when He died on the cross - God knows more about mans corrupt nature then we ever will. Also, Christ death and Resurrection and all those who would be redeemed by it was already foreseen by God.

Rev. 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet. 1:2 - according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

That He went along with the plan anyways, despite knowing all would not be saved, goes against the idea that he considered every single human being not being saved as a failure, the purpose was to save a people for himself and that was accomplished. Jesus even acknowledged the future reality of many going to hell, if he thought him going to the cross would be a failure, he would not have gone through with it.

Matthew 7:13 - “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Two things about Romans 9.
1. God is not arbitrary, He is not Allah.
2. I think you are confusing saving faith and salvation and making them mean the same thing, they are close but not the same.

 

[GreenNnice]

]I never said anyone can change on their own for salvation, Christ will show them unto Himself[/B].

Rea-read my example of 'God's elect,' via the Obama's elect example. The people elect Obama by VOTING for Obama. An unbeliever chooses Christ by voting for Him, ah, but, ONLY AFTER having God give them talking points, so to speak, for CHOOSING Him

Yes you did.


Right here:

Read the boldface, your answer will be clear how 'God's elect,' is meant for understanding in scripture.

We choose our own salvation ONLY AFTER God draws us unto Himself.
Obama's elect are NOT thought of in terms of His cabinet, the meaning is deeper than that....

The people who elected Obama to office are 'Obama's elect. That means the INDIVIDUAL PERSON VOTED for Obama, jimdig, it was their choice and EVERYONE has the right to vote.

That none should perish, no, not one good, that none should perish, no, not one....
Mixing Romans and 2 Peter scrupture but that is the Truth, God KNOWS we are NOT good but while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us.

That said, it is our VOTE (choice) for Him that elects us to die to our self, crucify our flesh, repent, believe, baptisms, receive Spirit, walk and live in Him.

Our choice, jimdig,, that is the beautiful salvation path for all, Jew, gentile, slave, free, ALL can and WILL become God's elect via the simplest of all choices to start the salvation process THEIR CHOICE.

TO--believe or not believe, that is EVERY MAN'S, and, every woman's QUESTION TO.DECIDE FOR HIMSELF/HERSELF, Satan following or God''s made way to the renaissance royalty of eternal blessings and inheritance and rewards with Christ ALL time, this time of human life, but a short, short, stay, and the time AFTER this life in blessed everlasting eternity, gained by our election by Him of us His forever and ever. Amen, thank you, Jesus

 

[feedm3]

Kosmos

Strong's Number: 2889

Definition
an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

If you go to the Greek, let alone proper exegesis, you find that it's grossly misquoted.

(Source: Kosmos - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard <-- click!)

Slightly more academic(if that's what you're into):
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZjsfaO2kc[/video]


That one pretty much gets killed right away. Examine TULIP a little closer Especially the T and the U.

Watched half of the video, this guy has no clue what he is saying. THe whole red letter part was irrevelent to how the word Kosmos is used. It can mean the world and everythingh in it, or just a region, it depends on the context.

Example:
Acts 17:24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
We know God made everything in the universe as the word "world" here suggests.

Example B:
Acts 11:28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Cæsar.

Probably referring to the known world, or specific regions.

It just depends on the context. When it comes to salvation, the remote context of scripture, shows us it has been given to all who hear and accept the gospel - Rom 1:16, Tit 2:11, Eph 1:13.

When people want to start redefining words to support a doctrine, you find they are changing the scripture to fit their interpretation, instead changing their interpretation to fit the word of God.

As for studying TULIP closer, I did, and here is the conclusion I came to:

T - Totally
U - Useless
L - Lies
I - Inciting
P - Pride

 

[hhhlga89]

T - Totally
U - Useless
L - Lies
I - Inciting
P - Pride

Wow. Can I steal that?

 

[feedm3]

Wow. Can I steal that?

You sure can, have at it

 

[tribesman]

They can't be saved, they are the many who are not chosen as a result of not hearing and responding to the gospel. I don't believe God thought he would (or could) save every man on earth when He died on the cross - God knows more about mans corrupt nature then we ever will. Also, Christ death and Resurrection and all those who would be redeemed by it was already foreseen by God.

If God said He literally loved ALL THE WORLD, and wanted to save literally ALL men, that ever lived and ever will live, then is he not a miserable god who cannot do what he wants to do for those he loves? Whatever god that is that is not the omnipotent God presented in the Bible

I think you are confusing saving faith and salvation and making them mean the same thing, they are close but not the same.

What do you mean with this saying?

I must say that what I have quoted from you above sounds very confusing to me.

 

[Red33]

If God said He literally loved ALL THE WORLD, and wanted to save literally ALL men, that ever lived and ever will live, then is he not a miserable god who cannot do what he wants to do for those he loves? Whatever god that is that is not the omnipotent God presented in the Bible

What do you mean with this saying?

I must say that what I have quoted from you above sounds very confusing to me.

God did not send His Son to save all men, but sent His Son that whosoever would believe on Him would be saved. God did not save all men when He imputed all sin to His Son on the cross, but He did make salvation available to all men through mercy and that is why He has not and will not impute their sin and trespasses unto them. Every man's sin, whether they believe on the Son or not, has been imputed to and judged by the Son through His death, burial and resurrection, so that the only thing sinful man has to do to be saved is to believe upon that act of mercy (propitiation). Through mercy God has taken away everything that sinful man deserves and makes grace available to save the sinner by faith in what His Son did when He crucified and put away sin. This is the beauty of God's plan of salvation for sinful man. It's all according to mercy, it's all by grace and all of it is received by faith without a single work, except to believe.

 

[tribesman]

...This is the beauty of God's plan of salvation for sinful man. It's all according to mercy, it's all by grace and all of it is received by faith without a single work, except to believe.

Ah, so you do admit that believing is a work and that salvation is conditional on that work? Thanks for being honest about it, if so. Needless to say I do not agree with that.

Red, there are millions of people who died, never hearing the gospel. What do you make out of that? God wanted to save these, but wasn't able to?

 

[Red33]

Ah, so you do admit that believing is a work and that salvation is conditional on that work? Thanks for being honest about it, if so. Needless to say I do not agree with that.

Red, there are millions of people who died, never hearing the gospel. What do you make out of that? God wanted to save these, but wasn't able to?

Are you going to presume that they did not hear or that God did not testify to them through His creation (Ps 19)? Are you going to be guilty of the great transgression of presumption (Ps 19:13)? How do you deal with this testimony of scripture in (Rom 10:18)...

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Don't misunderstand the work of belieiving...

Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[tribesman]

Don't misunderstand the work of belieiving...

Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Maybe it is you who are misunderstanding things. John 6:29 says it is the work of God that someone believes. You say it is a work of man. Huge difference. By the way: read John 6 in context.

Are you going to presume that they did not hear or that God did not testify to them through His creation (Ps 19)? Are you going to be guilty of the great transgression of presumption (Ps 19:13)? How do you deal with this testimony of scripture in (Rom 10:18)...

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You are presuming things which have no scriptural or historical bearing. You pluck verses out of their context and contradict your own statements. About what you quote from Rom.10:18, it is actually a proof text against your understanding of the term "the world". I made a thread-post earlier where a similar scripture is highlighted. Link below:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/40083-col-1-3-6-23-gospel-preached-all-world.html <-link

 

[hhhlga89]

If God said He literally loved ALL THE WORLD, and wanted to save literally ALL men, that ever lived and ever will live, then is he not a miserable god who cannot do what he wants to do for those he loves? Whatever god that is that is not the omnipotent God presented in the Bible

Sure God wants all men to be saved, but it doesn't happen. That doesn't make God misserable. God wants all men to love him genuinely, out of their freewill, not as robots. If your making that arguement, you would also have to call God foolish for giving Adam an opportunity in the garden to obey or disobey, I'm sure you would agree that God wanted Adam to love him. If that desire would lead God to the same conclusions you think it should, then God would not have let the tree of the knowledge in the Garden. Or he would have barred it off, or irristable caused Adam not to eat of it. Unless your a hyper-calvinist....

If a man loves a woman he doesn't want to brainswasher her(irristable grace) into loving him, he wants to woo her with gifts and kindness(grace).

What do you mean with this saying?

I must say that what I have quoted from you above sounds very confusing to me.

I am saying if God intends to save someone, it doesn't mean he intends to grant them the saving faith to believe also.

 

[Red33]

Maybe it is you who are misunderstanding things. John 6:29 says it is the work of God that someone believes. You say it is a work of man. Huge difference. By the way: read John 6 in context.

You are presuming things which have no scriptural or historical bearing. You pluck verses out of their context and contradict your own statements. About what you quote from Rom.10:18, it is actually a proof text against your understanding of the term "the world". I made a thread-post earlier where a similar scripture is highlighted. Link below:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/40083-col-1-3-6-23-gospel-preached-all-world.html <-link

You are just too messed up and very subjective on this issue. Live the way you want to, but you are going to have a very difficult time leading others to Christ when you have to explain to them that they can't use their volition to decide to agree with God and believe upon the name of Jesus Christ. Salvation is very much a joint participation between God and man through the person and work of the Son. To deprive man of the only way he can participate and exercise faith through the gift of his volition is to take away the ability in his humanity that God has given him and the work of conviction of the Holy Spirit to bring him to that place of trusting in the Lord for salvation.

 

[tribesman]

You are just too messed up and very subjective on this issue. Live the way you want to, but you are going to have a very difficult time leading others to Christ when you have to explain to them that they can't use their volition to decide to agree with God and believe upon the name of Jesus Christ. Salvation is very much a joint participation between God and man through the person and work of the Son. To deprive man of the only way he can participate and exercise faith through the gift of his volition is to take away the ability in his humanity that God has given him and the work of conviction of the Holy Spirit to bring him to that place of trusting in the Lord for salvation.

Thanks for your opinion. I reiterate my position that dead men can not participate in anything good before they are quickened by the one who has power to give them life.

I believe you are quiet messed up about having to go to some lengths to construct thoughts that flatly contradict scripture in order to suit your idea about that the gospel has been preached to literally "all" and that the word "the world" always must mean literally "all" in the Bible.

As a side note, I have no difficult time at all with sharing the gospel to each and every one I am led to. No need to worry about that. Worry more about your own unsystematical approach to some parts of scripture. And good luck to ya!

 

[tribesman]

Sure God wants all men to be saved, but it doesn't happen. That doesn't make God misserable.

It makes Him impotent to do as He will as it means that someone/something can resist His will (which goes against Rom.9:19) which means He cannot be omnipotent. Are you a believer in open theism?

God wants all men to love him genuinely, out of their freewill, not as robots. If your making that arguement, you would also have to call God foolish for giving Adam an opportunity in the garden to obey or disobey, I'm sure you would agree that God wanted Adam to love him. If that desire would lead God to the same conclusions you think it should, then God would not have let the tree of the knowledge in the Garden. Or he would have barred it off, or irristable caused Adam not to eat of it. Unless your a hyper-calvinist....

You cannot in all compare Adam to us. But it was Adam's sin that brought the mar of sin on mankind. You still do not understand that there is no freewill in justification. You think sinners are only sick in sin and not dead in them. From dead men nothing can be asked or expected. The love of God is shown by His raising up dead sinners to life, through the person and work of Christ.

I am not hyper-calvinist.

If a man loves a woman he doesn't want to brainswasher her(irristable grace) into loving him, he wants to woo her with gifts and kindness(grace).

A man who loves a woman will (if he can) save her when she is totally unable to do the slightest thingy to save herself, including asking him for it.

I am saying if God intends to save someone, it doesn't mean he intends to grant them the saving faith to believe also.

And I am saying that such talk is nonsense.