The Elect?

[Red33]

Thanks for your opinion. I reiterate my position that dead men can not participate in anything good before they are quickened by the one who has power to give them life.

I believe you are quiet messed up about having to go to some lengths to construct thoughts that flatly contradict scripture in order to suit your idea about that the gospel has been preached to literally "all" and that the word "the world" always must mean literally "all" in the Bible.

As a side note, I have no difficult time at all with sharing the gospel to each and every one I am led to. No need to worry about that. Worry more about your own unsystematical approach to some parts of scripture. And good luck to ya!

Is that what the Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to do in preaching the gospel, to only those that we are led to? We are to go to all nations and preach everywhere to every creature, even those we don't feel like talking to, because the just shall live by faith. Our faith should take us to those places that we are led by God to go to preach. If God leads the believer to go to Germany to preach the gospel, the believer takes a step of faith and gets their training and then goes to Germany and preaches the gospel to everybody and not just some elect crowd. That elect crowd stuff is just foolishness and a spirituality that has nothing to do with God or the blood of Christ.

If you preach the gospel to only those you feel led to preach to, that is being evil and it mocks the cross and the blood of Christ. You need to be rightly related to the cross and not some abstract doctrine of election and predestination that you esteem so highly. You won't humble yourself because you think too much of your own doctrine and it's thrown you off course. Your not shipwrecked but your sailing in the wrong direction. You are told to submit and be subject to one another (1Pt 5:5), so why don't you do it? Does pride stop you from humbling yourself or is it that you just don't feel like submitting to the whole counsel of God when it comes to receiving from others?

 

[GreenNnice]

Either sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins or they are not. It cannot be both.

Croners, jimdig, tribers, and, anyone else stuck in 'the world' of God's master race election, please, peeps, who hath ears to hear HEAR .

We are DEAD in our trespasses and sins until we repent, believe, choose Him, tribers..

Once we are ALIVE, we are no longer DEAD in them but DEAD OF OUR TRESPASSES, we have chosen the life of living and walking in Christ.

Now can we leave , depart our life of Christ, go from believer to unbeliever? Absolutely ! Staying His sheep is our choice as well.

Of course, for example, some disciples (followers of Christ. disciple=believer, doesn't it) quit following Christ when their selfishness won out. It's all about CHOICE tribers, bro.

Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and myself, and, I , we WILL serve the Lord.

God is Saviour to all men.

1 Timothy 4:10 ” For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men especially of those who believe.”

Colossians 1:28 him we preach warning every man in teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.


Every man. Every.

 

[hhhlga89]

It makes Him impotent to do as He will as it means that someone/something can resist His will (which goes against Rom.9:19) which means He cannot be omnipotent. Are you a believer in open theism?

And he is just as omnipotent if he wills that his will be rejected by men. when someone is raped is that God's will? No, fornication and adultery are sin, but it happens anyways? Does that make God not omnipotent? To you it does, to me I realize God can allow His will to be resisted.

You cannot in all compare Adam to us. But it was Adam's sin that brought the mar of sin on mankind. You still do not understand that there is no freewill in justification. You think sinners are only sick in sin and not dead in them. From dead men nothing can be asked or expected. The love of God is shown by His raising up dead sinners to life, through the person and work of Christ.

I can compare the way God dealt with Adam to us. If there is no freewill then the call to repent and believe is irrelevevant. Stop with the attacks, I do believe in total depravity, Prevenient grace takes the TD person into the state of nuetrality that Adam was in. Spiritually dead and physically dead are not the same thing, thats ludicrous.

A man who loves a woman will (if he can) save her when she is totally unable to do the slightest thingy to save herself, including asking him for it.

That analogy lacks in detail, did or did not the woman he saved want the help, if she didn't, after shes saved she would still be upset, that is not the way regeneration works for either calvinist or arminians. Thats where analogies fall short.

And I am saying that such talk is nonsense.

And I'm say such responces show gross ignorance and a cultish devotion to doctrines.

 

[GreenNnice]

And he is just as omnipotent if he wills that his will be rejected by men. when someone is raped is that God's will? No, fornication and adultery are sin, but it happens anyways? Does that make God not omnipotent? To you it does, to me I realize God can allow His will to be resisted.


I can compare the way God dealt with Adam to us. If there is no freewill then the call to repent and believe is irrelevevant. Stop with the attacks, I do believe in total depravity, Prevenient grace takes the TD person into the state of nuetrality that Adam was in. Spiritually dead and physically dead are not the same thing, thats ludicrous.


That analogy lacks in detail, did or did not the woman he saved want the help, if she didn't, after shes saved she would still be upset, that is not the way regeneration works for either calvinist or arminians. Thats where analogies fall short.



And I'm say such responces show gross ignorance and a cultish devotion to doctrines.

And what kind of red warning does God give us of such doers not of soundly interpreting/translating the Word?

”do not be carried about with various strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. ”

 

[tribesman]

Is that what the Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to do in preaching the gospel, to only those that we are led to? We are to go to all nations and preach everywhere to every creature, even those we don't feel like talking to, because the just shall live by faith. Our faith should take us to those places that we are led by God to go to preach. If God leads the believer to go to Germany to preach the gospel, the believer takes a step of faith and gets their training and then goes to Germany and preaches the gospel to everybody and not just some elect crowd. That elect crowd stuff is just foolishness and a spirituality that has nothing to do with God or the blood of Christ.

If you preach the gospel to only those you feel led to preach to, that is being evil and it mocks the cross and the blood of Christ. You need to be rightly related to the cross and not some abstract doctrine of election and predestination that you esteem so highly. You won't humble yourself because you think too much of your own doctrine and it's thrown you off course. Your not shipwrecked but your sailing in the wrong direction. You are told to submit and be subject to one another (1Pt 5:5), so why don't you do it? Does pride stop you from humbling yourself or is it that you just don't feel like submitting to the whole counsel of God when it comes to receiving from others?

You are marking words, tilting against windmills and argue for the sake of arguing, ending with attacks and false accusations as a result. You really should know better than that. At least you should show some decency instead of just forcing your way through. AS YOU ALREADY KNOW I have clearly stated earlier that I believe the gospel to be preached to every creature, not just some creatures, and that it is to be offered indiscriminately to all. This should do for all who cares to get my take on the issue. What I mean with being led to is of course that I have no possibility as an individual to do this alone, so I will, of course, reach those who I can reach. Simple as that. Knock off your contentiousness, will you. And one more thing, you will often tell people to "submit", which is of course scriptural, but that does never mean to submit to just anything or anyone. Maybe you imagine that everyone should submit to you and your "understanding". Tell us instead whom YOU submit to by way of leadership/fellowship.

 

[tribesman]

And he is just as omnipotent if he wills that his will be rejected by men. when someone is raped is that God's will? No, fornication and adultery are sin, but it happens anyways? Does that make God not omnipotent? To you it does, to me I realize God can allow His will to be resisted. .

Your conclusion is not relevant to what is discussed. This is not about ”is everything that happens God’s perfect/allowed will?”, this is about if God is ABLE to fully accomplish that which He determined to do. If someone can resist His will, or not (Rom.9:19).

I can compare the way God dealt with Adam to us. If there is no freewill then the call to repent and believe is irrelevevant. Stop with the attacks, I do believe in total depravity, Prevenient grace takes the TD person into the state of nuetrality that Adam was in. Spiritually dead and physically dead are not the same thing, thats ludicrous.

There are no attacks and what you say about total depravity makes zero sense. If you really believed in total depravity then you would KNOW that there is no free will in justification. Total depravity and prevenient grace are opposites, they do not mix. It seems to me that you have your own private belief system where you mix quiet so contradictive doctrines. The issue of repent and believe (Mark.1.14-15) have been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

That analogy lacks in detail, did or did not the woman he saved want the help, if she didn't, after shes saved she would still be upset, that is not the way regeneration works for either calvinist or arminians. Thats where analogies fall short.

The point was that the man acted out of love, not only wanting to save her life, but also being fully able to do so, and he did not need to ”wait” for a positive response from the woman to accomplish his will to save her.

If a father who has a child who is drowning in the sea, losing its breath, and he succesfully gets his child on land and is able to revive his child again by mouth to mouth resuscitation, is not that an act of love? Yes, because that is the nature of a loving father. But - he had no ”chance” of first ”asking” his child: do you really WANT ME to save you, it simply was not possible. Does this make this father a ”dictator” who wants will-less ”robots” around him?

You say ”that is not the way regeneration works for … calvinist”. Calvinism proper is very clear on that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins, by nature the children of wrath, and therefore totally lacks ability to positively respond to the call of God, before God gives it to them. Where do you get your stuffs from?

And I'm say such responces show gross ignorance and a cultish devotion to doctrines.

LOL! I believe some of your selfstyled statements are actually close to being cultish as they are confusing and contradicting. Those who are saved have saving faith. Period. That is as simple as it is and all that one needs to know.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I think this thread is best left to die.

When people start calling their opponents Nazis, the ability of discussion generally has long past.

Croners, jimdig, tribers, and, anyone else stuck in 'the world' of God's master race election, please, peeps, who hath ears to hear HEAR .

 

[feedm3]

If a father who has a child who is drowning in the sea, losing its breath, and he succesfully gets his child on land and is able to revive his child again by mouth to mouth resuscitation, is not that an act of love? Yes, because that is the nature of a loving father. But - he had no ”chance” of first ”asking” his child: do you really WANT ME to save you, it simply was not possible. Does this make this father a ”dictator” who wants will-less ”robots” around him?

No Tribesman, it does not make the father anything you said. Yet your illustration does not fit what you believe, no is it the way God saves us, it is not a spur of the moment reaction if he planed it before the world.

Lets fix it so it fits what you beleive:
A father has wrecked his car into a pole resulting in a fire. The fire is only burning at the hood, the man has 3 children in the car. He goes to the backseat, opens the door grabs one child, pulls him out of the way of the spreading fire, and shuts the door on the two children. The children are helpless, they cannot open the doors themselves, and it's not their fault they were in the car. The fire is not near them yet, still he does nothing to save them, only the child he wanted to be saved. The other are left to face their slow long painful burning death, because they never had a chance. They could see the fire coming, but they could do nothing, while their Father just watched, focusing only on the child he saved.

Does that make him a dictator? No, it makes him so many other things, the last name he would ever be called is a Father.

Your doctrine is evil and blasphemous, I hope you will repent.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Your doctrine is evil and blasphemous, I hope you will repent.[/SIZE]

At least you're honest. I wish others were as honest as you are.

 

[tribesman]

I think this thread is best left to die.

When people start calling their opponents Nazis, the ability of discussion generally has long past.

You have a point there. There is a limit for acceptable decency and seriousity. When users, in frequent posts, do not reach up to that limit then it becomes clear that they are just out to argue for the sake of arguing or bashing and not discuss. To keep such posting alive by responding to them will simply contribute nothing good to the thread. My policy is to ignore those whom I see as non-serious users and time-wasters.

 

[feedm3]

My policy is to ignore those whom I see as non-serious users and time-wasters.

And my policy is to not care if one is ignoring me, especially if it is because he/she was called out on a contraction.
It's irritating to see those use logic to try and prove themselves against others, but when logic is against them, they simply throw it out the window and cover their eyes.

Then they choose to ignore you, because you pointed out a contradiction, and their pride hates that.


Yet their pride does not stop there, it further leads them to label those that exposed their error as "non-serious time-wasters"
Typical attitude of one who believes they are part of an elite group chosen by God over others for no reason on their part - One must first be an arrogant person to even accept that kind of doctrine.

 

[GreenNnice]

I think this thread is best left to die.

When people start calling their opponents Nazis, the ability of discussion generally has long past.

I mean no insults by that and, Hitler did believe the Germans were the Master Race, of course, God, through the USA, proved this thinking wrong.

The Truth will set you, free, jimdig, and, then you are free indeed.

'The elect' means only a discriminate amount get saved, no?
Selectivity, right.
Selectivity means a 'Master Race'' doctrine. Do you wish to prove this false, jimdig?

 

[hhhlga89]

Your conclusion is not relevant to what is discussed. This is not about ”is everything that happens God’s perfect/allowed will?”, this is about if God is ABLE to fully accomplish that which He determined to do. If someone can resist His will, or not (Rom.9:19).

Your arguing that if God is omnipotent, then some people not being saved means he isn't. What you basically mean by that is if God doesn't get something His way he is not omniopotent. I gave you a situation where God's will is resisted, showing you that that has nothing to do with the omnipotency of God because we already know that's fact, he must allow His will to be rejected or else scripture contradicts.

God doesn't change, not even for Calvinists, sorry. (Mal 3:6; James 1:17)

There are no attacks and what you say about total depravity makes zero sense. If you really believed in total depravity then you would KNOW that there is no free will in justification. Total depravity and prevenient grace are opposites, they do not mix. It seems to me that you have your own private belief system where you mix quiet so contradictive doctrines. The issue of repent and believe (Mark.1.14-15) have been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Just saying something makes no sense without saying why isn't a very good arguement.. "Total depravity and prevenient grace are oppsites" Total depravity's opposite is No depravity; Prevenient grace's opposite is (i guess you would say) irrisistable grace. Total depravity has to due with human nature. Prevenient grace has to do with God's grace and how he deals with mankind..your trying to relate two entirely different concepts.

The point was that the man acted out of love, not only wanting to save her life, but also being fully able to do so, and he did not need to ”wait” for a positive response from the woman to accomplish his will to save her.

If a father who has a child who is drowning in the sea, losing its breath, and he succesfully gets his child on land and is able to revive his child again by mouth to mouth resuscitation, is not that an act of love? Yes, because that is the nature of a loving father. But - he had no ”chance” of first ”asking” his child: do you really WANT ME to save you, it simply was not possible. Does this make this father a ”dictator” who wants will-less ”robots” around him?

Is it loving father who has two children drowning, has the capability to save both but only saves one, for no reason?

I was talking about after salvation, no one who is saved would still be upset for being saved. I was saying that if the woman in the analogy didnt want to be saved...whatever.

You say ”that is not the way regeneration works for … calvinist”. Calvinism proper is very clear on that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins, by nature the children of wrath, and therefore totally lacks ability to positively respond to the call of God, before God gives it to them. Where do you get your stuffs from?

LOL! I believe some of your selfstyled statements are actually close to being cultish as they are confusing and contradicting. Those who are saved have saving faith. Period. That is as simple as it is and all that one needs to know.

"Those who are saved have saving faith". but they are not the same thing, like i told you earlier. why don't you understand that??

 

[feedm3]

I knew someone who once said "you cannot be saved by works, but if you do not do them you can not be saved". Then I pointed out the paradox in that statement, and he's been pouting every since.

So many different statements lead to things that do not make sense, but if we just stick to scripture, and let the Bible interpret the Bible then we can understand the elect, the non-elect and all things that pertain to life and Godliness - I Pet 1:3

Here this passage sums up everything:
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL them that obey him

 

[loveme1]

[/COLOR]

I mean no insults by that and, Hitler did believe the Germans were the Master Race, of course, God, through the USA, proved this thinking wrong.

The Truth will set you, free, jimdig, and, then you are free indeed.

'The elect' means only a discriminate amount get saved, no?
Selectivity, right.
Selectivity means a 'Master Race'' doctrine. Do you wish to prove this false, jimdig?

Oh there is more to it than what you speak.... If only you knew.

 

[feedm3]

All that obey him starts with the God-given free moral agency he gave us, so we can show we truly love him - Jn 14:15

Josh 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord - Great choice

 

[GreenNnice]

You have a point there. There is a limit for acceptable decency and seriousity. When users, in frequent posts, do not reach up to that limit then it becomes clear that they are just out to argue for the sake of arguing or bashing and not discuss. To keep such posting alive by responding to them will simply contribute nothing good to the thread. My policy is to ignore those whom I see as non-serious users and time-wasters.

Who?
Where?

______
jimdig signature verse: If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. Mark 13:20

Verse subjects prior to v. 20 speaking of 'the elect.'

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations

By the way, convenient as it be, the Lord leads me, I always hope and pray, but, yes, please, listen to this Truth from Mark 13, Christ peeps, for this is how I KNOW God works in me, through Him of me, with words, and, even so I don't and do know, groanings: ”But when they arrest you and deliver you up do not worry beforehand or pre meditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak but the Holy Spirit.”

Mark 13:13 ”And you will be hated by all for my name's sake but he who endures to the end shall be saved. ”

It is clear whom the elect is, no?

1. All the nations having gospel preached ONLY for some SELECT chance to believe? No, not our God who Loves ALL who answer His call and ALL THE NATIONS, before Jesus comes again, WILL.hear Gospel and therefore be drawn to Him. That person's call, pun intended, to choose IF they will see Christ's way what they want to repent on and believe in Him, and, Jesus Christ death on the cross.

This scripture verse states all the nations will hear, or, 'all the world,' would be accurate translatioh, no?

2.he who endures (no selectivity in that phrasing is there.) He who stays true to God, worshiping in Spirit and in Truth will be saved. Right, that's an adequate translation of biblical enduring, no?

Yes, the elect= ALL THE NATIONS' people who CHOOSE to believe when God draws unto them

 

[feedm3]

Who?
Where?

______

Green, I am pretty sure that was directed at me, or any others he might be "ignoring". We had a discussion some while ago, he didn't like something, so he said he was ignoring me. I just thought of it as an over reaction, until I he deiced to make that comment, now I see it is just pouting, because I pointed out an error.
But i post not trying to annoy him, nor get a response, but just giving my two cents on the things he brings up. Figure that's ok to do on a thread.

 

[tribesman]

hhhlga89,

First off, ty for a better tone in your last reply.

Your arguing that if God is omnipotent, then some people not being saved means he isn't. What you basically mean by that is if God doesn't get something His way he is not omniopotent.

I am saying that if God is determined to do something then, yes, it will be done and nothing can hinder it.

I gave you a situation where God's will is resisted, showing you that that has nothing to do with the omnipotency of God because we already know that's fact, he must allow His will to be rejected or else scripture contradicts.

These were men doing something. Not God doing something. That's some difference. (Btw, I won't go into the "is everything that happens the will of God"-debate here and now).

Just saying something makes no sense without saying why isn't a very good arguement.. "Total depravity and prevenient grace are oppsites" Total depravity's opposite is No depravity; Prevenient grace's opposite is (i guess you would say) irrisistable grace. Total depravity has to due with human nature. Prevenient grace has to do with God's grace and how he deals with mankind..your trying to relate two entirely different concepts.

Mixing total depravity (which of course is related to irresistable grace) and prevenient grace, both terms strictly defined, makes little or no sense. Even though Arminius in his thought somehow tried to reconcile the two concepts (maybe you are a classic arminian?). Prevenient grace holds to that it brings the sinner into a "neutral" state of free volition upon which the outcome of justification is dependent, while total depravity denies free volition in justification and holds to effectual calling dependent upon God's drawing. Big difference.

Is it loving father who has two children drowning, has the capability to save both but only saves one, for no reason?

What is this? Of course a loving father would save both of his two drowning children when he can do so. Goes without saying.

I was talking about after salvation, no one who is saved would still be upset for being saved. I was saying that if the woman in the analogy didnt want to be saved...whatever.

Yes, I get that. But I think you answered your own input well: no one who is saved would [still] be upset for being saved. That's how I see it as well.

"Those who are saved have saving faith". but they are not the same thing, like i told you earlier. why don't you understand that??

It is possible I lost you somehow. My whole scoop is that if God INTENDS (you used that word "intend" in post #37) to save someone, then He will provide all the means and instruments thereunto. I am sure that we think very differently about what the nature of faith is. Thus the disagreement.

 

[GreenNnice]

Green, I am pretty sure that was directed at me, or any others he might be "ignoring". We had a discussion some while ago, he didn't like something, so he said he was ignoring me. I just thought of it as an over reaction, until I he deiced to make that comment, now I see it is just pouting, because I pointed out an error.
But i post not trying to annoy him, nor get a response, but just giving my two cents on the things he brings up. Figure that's ok to do on a thread.

==========
Feed, well-well said Truth on c.c., do not grow weary of doing good, your reward awaits, and not just in Heaven

Christ bro, we can only pray that tribers , jimdig, croners, see that Truth all have said. I understand there ununderstanding though, it will be made all clear as they stay here and listen, we are but vessels and Christ will convict them through hearing of the word and their faith will be changed anew. Praise You, Jesus. Amen !