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S
So was Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fictional? Was the flood allegory? At what point does Genesis stop being allegory and starts becoming literal?
There is no real reason to believe that any part of Genesis is allegory other than the the fact that it wont fit into mans fallible "scientific theories".
The new testament refers to genesis as actual, literal events, and therefore, so do I.
There is no real reason to believe that any part of Genesis is allegory other than the the fact that it wont fit into mans fallible "scientific theories".
The new testament refers to genesis as actual, literal events, and therefore, so do I.
T
This was several days ago, and I have not seen an answer from Laodicea yet.
I would actually like to know from Laodicea: You believe that the book of Genesis was written by Moses during his days as a shepherd. Where does this come from? Is it written in the Bible somewhere? If so, where? If it is not written in the Bible, by what authority do you believe it?
I am really eager to know.
I would actually like to know from Laodicea: You believe that the book of Genesis was written by Moses during his days as a shepherd. Where does this come from? Is it written in the Bible somewhere? If so, where? If it is not written in the Bible, by what authority do you believe it?
I am really eager to know.
T
First of all, "were," not "was," but that's a minor issue, so never mind.
Secondly and more importantly, I think "fictional" is the wrong word. Is King Arthur "fictional"? What about Julius Ceasar?
There were certainly people of these names in existence. How much of what is remembered and told about them is True, and how much is just "historically accurate" instead? That we may never know. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The stories are more important than the accuracy of them. And it's the same with Scripture. What the stories say, the morals, the lessons they teach, the REASON God chose those particular stories to pass on to us, that is what is important, not whether or not they actually happened that way. And if you're so caught up in trying to "prove" historical accuracy, let me assure you, you're missing the point.
Yes. Again, quite obviously to anyone who bothers to read the text.
Somewhere after Chapter 50, love.
Well, the one real reason to believe it would be because it's true, and that's the way it's written.
Long before "man" had any scientific theories that contradicted with a young-earth understanding, believers understood Genesis to be allegory. If the only reason to call Genesis allegory was because the literal reading contradicted evolution, then no one would have read it as allegory until the theory of evolution was discovered. The fact is, scholars have read Genesis as allegory, myth, and story for thousands of years, even in Jesus' time.
So actually, there is no real reason to believe that any part of Genesis is NOT story. There is no real reason to believe that God lies. And I can't even come up with a "other than the fact that...." for that one. Honestly, I don't know why you and others are so intent on making God out to be a liar.
Actually, it does not. It refers to Genesis the same way I do: as important stories that shaped a people. And it's pretty clear that Jesus, who is God incarnate, was just as aware of the mythic qualities of Genesis as anyone.
And if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
Secondly and more importantly, I think "fictional" is the wrong word. Is King Arthur "fictional"? What about Julius Ceasar?
There were certainly people of these names in existence. How much of what is remembered and told about them is True, and how much is just "historically accurate" instead? That we may never know. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The stories are more important than the accuracy of them. And it's the same with Scripture. What the stories say, the morals, the lessons they teach, the REASON God chose those particular stories to pass on to us, that is what is important, not whether or not they actually happened that way. And if you're so caught up in trying to "prove" historical accuracy, let me assure you, you're missing the point.
Yes. Again, quite obviously to anyone who bothers to read the text.
Somewhere after Chapter 50, love.
Well, the one real reason to believe it would be because it's true, and that's the way it's written.
Long before "man" had any scientific theories that contradicted with a young-earth understanding, believers understood Genesis to be allegory. If the only reason to call Genesis allegory was because the literal reading contradicted evolution, then no one would have read it as allegory until the theory of evolution was discovered. The fact is, scholars have read Genesis as allegory, myth, and story for thousands of years, even in Jesus' time.
So actually, there is no real reason to believe that any part of Genesis is NOT story. There is no real reason to believe that God lies. And I can't even come up with a "other than the fact that...." for that one. Honestly, I don't know why you and others are so intent on making God out to be a liar.
Actually, it does not. It refers to Genesis the same way I do: as important stories that shaped a people. And it's pretty clear that Jesus, who is God incarnate, was just as aware of the mythic qualities of Genesis as anyone.
And if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
S
Because its weak and silly....
I usually don't feel as passionate about refuting ideas that are blatantly and obviously wrong. I feel most people who read this thread will clearly see just that. Now, arguments that actually seem to have some merit, I will refute so that it doesn't mislead people.
I think its POSSIBLE the earth may be old....but Genesis being allegory? Nope
I usually don't feel as passionate about refuting ideas that are blatantly and obviously wrong. I feel most people who read this thread will clearly see just that. Now, arguments that actually seem to have some merit, I will refute so that it doesn't mislead people.
I think its POSSIBLE the earth may be old....but Genesis being allegory? Nope
C
S
The oldest interpretation of Genesis is a literal interpretation, you know why? Because the New Testament clearly describes it in a literal fashion. So don't be silly....
Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Ti_2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
2Pe_2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Mat_1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat_1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat_1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Mat_3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mar_12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luk_1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Luk_1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk_3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk_3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk_13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk_13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk_19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Joh_8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh_8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh_8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh_8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh_8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh_8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Act_3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act_3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act_7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act_7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
Act_7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
Act_7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Act_7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act_13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom_4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom_4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom_4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom_9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2Co_11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Gal_3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal_3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal_3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal_3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal_3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal_3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal_3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal_4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb_6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb_7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb_7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb_7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb_7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb_7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb_7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
1Pe_3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Ti_2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat_24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk_17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
2Pe_2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Mat_1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat_1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat_1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Mat_3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mar_12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luk_1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Luk_1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk_3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk_3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk_13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk_13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk_19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luk_20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Joh_8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh_8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh_8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh_8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh_8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh_8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Act_3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act_3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act_7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act_7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
Act_7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
Act_7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Act_7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act_13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom_4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom_4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom_4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom_9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2Co_11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Gal_3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal_3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal_3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal_3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal_3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal_3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal_3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal_4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb_6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb_7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb_7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb_7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb_7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb_7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb_7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
1Pe_3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
T
True. When someone has a weak argument, they will pick out one sentence from an entire post and comment on it, since they are unable to come up with valid discourse on the whole of the argument.
Readers of this thread will notice that this one sentence, which you chose to quote and on which you commented, I heartily admitted was a small matter, mentioned it only in passing, and then went on at great length to discuss headier matters of portent.
The intelligent readers will know which side in this particular argument, therefore, is "weak," and could not substantiate any reasonable discourse.
Readers of this thread will notice that this one sentence, which you chose to quote and on which you commented, I heartily admitted was a small matter, mentioned it only in passing, and then went on at great length to discuss headier matters of portent.
The intelligent readers will know which side in this particular argument, therefore, is "weak," and could not substantiate any reasonable discourse.