Old Earth vs Young Earth

[budgiebat]

So, I'm seeing a lot of pointed, personal comments being thrown around... but very little actual scientific discussion (after all, isn't that what this should all be about? Civil, scientific discussion?).

Firstly, I believe in a literal 6 day Creation as stated in Genesis. Call me simple, but I take the Bible at face value, just as it reads when it says "days" and "evening and morning". I don't pretend to understand how God was able to just speak everything into existence, but I know that the God we serve is all powerful beyond our comprehension. Personally, I think it speaks volumes more on God's power to be able to create everything in just a few days than it does for Him to create over millions of years using a floored system as a tool (new life and species come from the death of others, survival of the fittest, etc.).

I'm currently studying human science at university, and the more I learn about the world around me and the world within me, the more I see the fingerprint of an Intelligent Creator. For instance, staunch Evolutionist Richard Dawkins is quoted as having stated that, “There is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over.” No one would ever dispute that the Encyclopaedia Britannica had an author, yet so much of modern science denies that this incredibily complex human cell had an Intelligent Author also. It baffles me that evolution-believing Christians so often use this majority concensus of opinion within scientific professionals to support their belief in Evolution, yet that same concensus of opinion so ardantly denies an intelligent hand in the process of life, beit through evolution or creation. I would also like to point out that the majority is not always correct - it was the majority that cried out for Christ to be crucified!

I do not mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone's beliefs, just as I hope no one would make a personal attack on my beliefs. I respect science too much to degrade it to a level of petty argument. I simply wish to bring some scientific discussion to the table, as it is a most facinating topic that too often is clouded by personal bigotry. God bless!

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

yet so much of modern science denies that this incredibily complex human cell had an Intelligent Author also.

Actually, very few modern scientists deny the "intelligent author." There are plenty of scientists who accept evolution, and accept that there could be (and / or IS) a God.

Though I do agree with you that just because a majority of people believe something doesn't make it true. Before Galileo, a majority of people thought the world was flat.

To me, I don't care so much what "most people," or even what ANY one person thinks. I look to the book. I see what God says. That's the only opinion that matters, don't you think?

 

[Laodicea]

Actually, very few modern scientists deny the "intelligent author." There are plenty of scientists who accept evolution, and accept that there could be (and / or IS) a God.

Though I do agree with you that just because a majority of people believe something doesn't make it true. Before Galileo, a majority of people thought the world was flat.

To me, I don't care so much what "most people," or even what ANY one person thinks. I look to the book. I see what God says. That's the only opinion that matters, don't you think?

Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The 7th day in this verse is talking about a 24 hour period so in that context the 6 days mentioned in the same verse are also 24 hour days.

Exodus 16:26
(26) Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

This also is talking about the sabbath and the 6 days to work and is talking about them as 24 hour periods

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

The 7th day in this verse {Ex 20:11} is talking about a 24 hour period so in that context the 6 days mentioned in the same verse are also 24 hour days.

This {Ex 16:26} also is talking about the sabbath and the 6 days to work and is talking about them as 24 hour periods

Yes, in these two instances, God is referring to literal, 24-hour periods.

A parallel example would be:

"Just as the tortoise beat the hare, slow and steady wins the race."
Being slow and steady, methodical, rather than short spurts of speed followed by laziness, is your best bet to complete a task in the least amount of time. Referring to the proverbial "tortoise v. hare" fable here, the person who is saying this quote is not referring to a literal event. There was no actual race between a turtle and a rabbit, where the two animals talked to each other and decided to race each other from Point A to Point B, and the end result of that literal race was that the turtle won. That would be silly if it were literal. Rabbits don't talk.

Anyone who refers to that story knows that it doesn't refer to a literal event. Anyone who hears about it knows that it is not a literal event. And they don't have to say, "Um, excuse me, I noticed you referred to a mythical race between a rabbit and a turtle. Umm, you do realize that that is just a story, don't you?" No! It is universally understood that it's a fable.

"Slow and steady wins the race." That is a universal truth. It is a truth which is shown by the example of the tortoise-hare fable, and by other fables, myths, and actual, literal events (the time I was driving over the speed limit to try and get to my destination on time, even though I had left late, and ended up getting pulled over for speeding, thus making me actually much later than had I just gone the speed limit ... true story)....

Genesis 1 is clearly, obviously, undeniably a fable. There is no reason to understand it any other way, and for thousands upon thousands of years, everyone understood it that way. The priests understood it that way, when they wrote the 2nd commandment, saying that "God rested on the 7th day, so we should too." They referred to the fable of the 7-day creation to support the commandment. Jesus understood it that way. Paul understood it that way, when he spoke of the New Adam and the New Earth.

Christian scholars up until the late 1800s understood it that way, universally. No one had to say, "Oh, and by the way, this is just a story. We all know that, right?" Just by reading the fracking words, it was obvious, the way the tortoise-hare fable is obviously a fable.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could read Genesis and NOT see it as myth. Someone had to TELL you that it wasn't. Someone had to misguide you in the reading of it. Because when I read it the first time, without anyone guiding me except for the Holy Spirit, I understood it just the way God intended it: as a story. And for thousands of years, everyone who read it understood it that way. Why would anyone NOT understand it that way? The only reason would be because a few cocky so-called Christians tried to stir up some trouble about 150 years ago, and we're still reaping the sour fruit of that labor of hate.

Satan has indeed done some devilish work, and it saddens me to no end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, in these two instances, God is referring to literal, 24-hour periods.

A parallel example would be:

"Just as the tortoise beat the hare, slow and steady wins the race."
Being slow and steady, methodical, rather than short spurts of speed followed by laziness, is your best bet to complete a task in the least amount of time. Referring to the proverbial "tortoise v. hare" fable here, the person who is saying this quote is not referring to a literal event. There was no actual race between a turtle and a rabbit, where the two animals talked to each other and decided to race each other from Point A to Point B, and the end result of that literal race was that the turtle won. That would be silly if it were literal. Rabbits don't talk.

Anyone who refers to that story knows that it doesn't refer to a literal event. Anyone who hears about it knows that it is not a literal event. And they don't have to say, "Um, excuse me, I noticed you referred to a mythical race between a rabbit and a turtle. Umm, you do realize that that is just a story, don't you?" No! It is universally understood that it's a fable.

"Slow and steady wins the race." That is a universal truth. It is a truth which is shown by the example of the tortoise-hare fable, and by other fables, myths, and actual, literal events (the time I was driving over the speed limit to try and get to my destination on time, even though I had left late, and ended up getting pulled over for speeding, thus making me actually much later than had I just gone the speed limit ... true story)....

Genesis 1 is clearly, obviously, undeniably a fable. There is no reason to understand it any other way, and for thousands upon thousands of years, everyone understood it that way. The priests understood it that way, when they wrote the 2nd commandment, saying that "God rested on the 7th day, so we should too." They referred to the fable of the 7-day creation to support the commandment. Jesus understood it that way. Paul understood it that way, when he spoke of the New Adam and the New Earth.

Christian scholars up until the late 1800s understood it that way, universally. No one had to say, "Oh, and by the way, this is just a story. We all know that, right?" Just by reading the fracking words, it was obvious, the way the tortoise-hare fable is obviously a fable.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could read Genesis and NOT see it as myth. Someone had to TELL you that it wasn't. Someone had to misguide you in the reading of it. Because when I read it the first time, without anyone guiding me except for the Holy Spirit, I understood it just the way God intended it: as a story. And for thousands of years, everyone who read it understood it that way. Why would anyone NOT understand it that way? The only reason would be because a few cocky so-called Christians tried to stir up some trouble about 150 years ago, and we're still reaping the sour fruit of that labor of hate.

So the bible is a fable? Wow!

Satan has indeed done some devilish work, and it saddens me to no end.

yes he has, He has you in his arms believing his lie

 

[chesser]

I believe in a literal 6 day creation. I believe that the earth is only a few thousand yrs old. I serve an allmighty God who speaks things into existance, not a retarded god who takes millions of yrs to create anything

i wouldn't call god a retard if i were you, have you no fear of god?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

So the bible is a fable? Wow!

Sigh.

So-called "eternally-gratefull" obviously did not read my post; I never said "the Bible is a fable." In fact, the first sentence of that post pointed out that the verses in question were indeed literal.

And since s/he did not read my post (sorry, I don't remember if e-g was male or female, no insult intended here), I have no hope of educating him/her further. I would just like to point out for others who may be reading -- and who have debated me in other threads -- that s/he is guilty of bearing false witness against a neighbor, and if you are as serious as some of you claim to be about bringing accountability to your sisters and brothers in the faith for ALL sins, not just the sin of homosexuality, you will chastise "eternally-gratefull" for this sin.

It will be interesting to see if anyone puts their money where their proverbial mouth is.

 

[chesser]

So, I'm seeing a lot of pointed, personal comments being thrown around... but very little actual scientific discussion (after all, isn't that what this should all be about? Civil, scientific discussion?).

you cant really argue with a YEC, you can give them a 10 page paper supporting an old earth and they will throw it out and say"oh yeah, explain moon dust and that sandal found near a dinosaur footprint if the universe is so old" then you will be like"what?" and they will go"thought so, i win!"

 

[Ori]

Kent Hovind makes a great video set on science and creation Well worth looking into Specifically addresses age of the earth and dinosaurs

God bless!

 

[Laodicea]

you cant really argue with a YEC, you can give them a 10 page paper supporting an old earth and they will throw it out and say"oh yeah, explain moon dust and that sandal found near a dinosaur footprint if the universe is so old" then you will be like"what?" and they will go"thought so, i win!"

Same can be said about people who believe in an old earth. The Bible says that God made the earth and everything in it in 6 days and instead of accepting the word of God you explain it away to mean something it does not say.

Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The 7th day in this verse is talking about a 24 hour period so in that context the 6 days mentioned in the same verse are also 24 hour days.

Exodus 16:26
(26) Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

This also is talking about the sabbath and the 6 days to work and is talking about them as 24 hour periods

 

[shininglight]

I finished Kent Hovinds creation video seminar today. I must say, it has me leaning in favor of a young earth now. I would recommend that all the old earthers watch it....though it may not change your mind, it might make you rethink some things.

...And dont let the fact that he is in prison now for tax evasion prevent you from watching it.

 

[Dude653]

i wouldn't call god a retard if i were you, have you no fear of god?[

You took what I said out of context. I said DO NOT serve a retarded God. To assume that God took millions of yrs to create the earth is indeed disrespectful to God. Can He not speak things into existance??

 

[Dude653]

I finished Kent Hovinds creation video seminar today. I must say, it has me leaning in favor of a young earth now. I would recommend that all the old earthers watch it....though it may not change your mind, it might make you rethink some things.

...And dont let the fact that he is in prison now for tax evasion prevent you from watching it.

Yes Kent Hovind has some great info on this subject. Facts are facts, regardless of the fact that he is in prison.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sigh.

So-called "eternally-gratefull" obviously did not read my post; I never said "the Bible is a fable." In fact, the first sentence of that post pointed out that the verses in question were indeed literal.

And since s/he did not read my post (sorry, I don't remember if e-g was male or female, no insult intended here), I have no hope of educating him/her further. I would just like to point out for others who may be reading -- and who have debated me in other threads -- that s/he is guilty of bearing false witness against a neighbor, and if you are as serious as some of you claim to be about bringing accountability to your sisters and brothers in the faith for ALL sins, not just the sin of homosexuality, you will chastise "eternally-gratefull" for this sin.

It will be interesting to see if anyone puts their money where their proverbial mouth is.

I most certainly did read what you posted. lets revisit.

Genesis 1 is clearly, obviously, undeniably a fable. There is no reason to understand it any other way, and for thousands upon thousands of years, everyone understood it that way.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could read Genesis and NOT see it as myth.

Someone had to TELL you that it wasn't. Someone had to misguide you in the reading of it. Because when I read it the first time, without anyone guiding me except for the Holy Spirit, I understood it just the way God intended it: as a story.

A Story is a myth, or something that is not literally true.

so would you like to try again?

so here is what you said. In exodus we have a literal 24 hour period. But in genesis, When God says morning and evening, it is just a story.

You want to try again?

also,.

1. I am a male
2. I did not bare false witness.
3. You want to educate me? on what? how genesis is just a story?
4. Chasten me? for what. you have not proven I have sinned.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

so here is what you said. In exodus we have a literal 24 hour period. But in genesis, When God says morning and evening, it is just a story.

That is correct.

The whole of the Bible is not "a fable." Genesis contains fable among other things. Exodus contains fable as well, but the particular part you quoted was not story.

I never once stated that the whole Bible was a story. You know that, and you intentionally lied. Lying is a sin. According to Paul, it's one which warrants the fires of hell. Just sayin.

You claim you read my post, but if you did, prove it by referring to what I wrote. I gave an example of how people can refer to myths in one sentence, and then apply that to a real-life situation. Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard someone refer to a story and compare it to a real-life situation? Really?

Now, if you were to say, "Sure, I know what you're talking about, Diva, I just don't think that's what's going on here," then I would accept it. We agree to disagree and move on respectfully.

But you are not even acknowledging my arguments. Either you don't understand them (which is possible, if you're an idiot, but I don't believe that) or you don't ***want*** to acknowledge them, because that would mean that maybe, just maybe, I am right and you are wrong.

1. I am a male

Thank you, I will try to remember that.

2. I did not bare false witness.

Yes, you claimed that I said something that I did not say. By definition, that is bearing false witness. You're better off to confess the sin than deny it.

3. You want to educate me? on what? how genesis is just a story?

Not particularly. I have already come to the conclusion that you are not interested in being educated on that particular subject. Have you ever heard the phrase "Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

4. Chasten me? for what. you have not proven I have sinned.

I don't have to prove anything. Your own words have already done so.

 

[distantshores]

1. 'You've never heard this argument, so it must not be a good one...'

I mention this because (A) I find your argument ridiculous because of reasons I've mentioned in other threads (every disagrees about the facts and the evidence, so your argument could be applied to any viewpoint) and (B) I've read many apologetics books and websites and none of them has seemed to consider your idea worth refuting.

2. 'Now that's just silly...'

No, it's not silly, because it follows the same principle. God did something that is otherwise impossible, such as creating universes out of nothing, creating animals and people, and healing people miraculously.

3. 'God chose to create the world by using the process of evolution.'

God didn't create the world using evolution. He didn't create plants, animals, or people using evolution, either, but that's beside the point. He created it out of nothing, ex nihilo. That was his choice. I don't see why you or anyone should criticize that choice.

4. 'Ummm, no...'

Umm, yes. I bet that if God created a rock out of nothing, and you brought it to a bunch of scientists and asked them how old it was, they would use all their dating methods to determine that it was billions of years old, just as they do with rocks that God created thousands or millions of years ago.

5. 'He PROVED it to me by creating the universe.'

How do you know that God created the universe? How do you know that he didn't just allow it to pop out of nothingness based on the principles of quantum mechanics, then allow for plants and animals to be formed by evolution? That is the sort of thing that some scientists are arguing now.

6. 'Your lack of ability to understand is not my problem.'

I understand your theory fine. That's why I know it doesn't make sense.

 

[chesser]

i wouldn't call god a retard if i were you, have you no fear of god?[

You took what I said out of context. I said DO NOT serve a retarded God. To assume that God took millions of yrs to create the earth is indeed disrespectful to God. Can He not speak things into existance??

but imagine i am right(i am), you would have called god retarded.(you have, I suggest you ask him for forgivness)

 

[GRA]

I finished Kent Hovinds creation video seminar today. I must say, it has me leaning in favor of a young earth now. I would recommend that all the old earthers watch it....though it may not change your mind, it might make you rethink some things.

...And dont let the fact that he is in prison now for tax evasion prevent you from watching it.

Yes Kent Hovind has some great info on this subject. Facts are facts, regardless of the fact that he is in prison.

Thanks guys for your good remarks.

"Kent Hovind is in prison because SATAN did not like the good work that he (K.H.) had been doing...!"

("Why can't some born-again Christian people see the spiritual side...?")

And, YES - the facts remain...

.

 

[Doobs]

I would just like to say that if I wanted to argue with people and to have people quote me just to put me down then this is the place. I believe in a young earth because I believe in a creator. There is an old saying that goes something along the lines of make sure you take time out to smell the roses. If someone doesn't believe in God at all then I feel sad for them, not anger. Maybe the person that doesn't believe in God may not have good scientific evidence, I dunno I don't know a real lot about science so I couldn't argue the point. Maybe they just knew some of those Christians that Christ talks about that do their own works in Christ's name. Again, I dunno. All I can say is, take time out to smell the roses. Go out to a lonely beach and close your eyes and don't meditate, just listen to it. Smell it. Go look at nature, it's beautiful. Go for a drive in the country if you can and turn your music off and just look at the treesj and smell the clean air and thank God for it. While you're there, take the time out to actually talk with your family instead of just having a quick take away meal with them while you watch tele. Does all this actually prove anything at all for or against a young earth or an old earth? Nope. I'm just saying, please take time out to smell the roses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is correct.

The whole of the Bible is not "a fable." Genesis contains fable among other things. Exodus contains fable as well, but the particular part you quoted was not story.

I never once stated that the whole Bible was a story. You know that, and you intentionally lied. Lying is a sin. According to Paul, it's one which warrants the fires of hell. Just sayin.

1. I did not lie
2/ All scripture is God breathed. Thus if part of the bible is fable and not Gods truth, how can we trust any of the word? Thus the conclusion would be Gods word is fable with some truth mixed in.
3. Twist it all you want, i did not lie, you just proved it.

You claim you read my post, but if you did, prove it by referring to what I wrote. I gave an example of how people can refer to myths in one sentence, and then apply that to a real-life situation. Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard someone refer to a story and compare it to a real-life situation? Really?

Yes you did. But your assuming this is what God did in genesis one. If this is the only proof you have, it is sorely lacking. and as you said earlier, I don;t understand how you believe anyone would use that excuse to prove gen 1 is fable.,

Now, if you were to say, "Sure, I know what you're talking about, Diva, I just don't think that's what's going on here," then I would accept it. We agree to disagree and move on respectfully.

You called my Gods account of creation a fairy tail or fable. That is quite offensive don;t you see? If God can;t even give the account of his wondrous creation work right, how can wer trust him with anything else he says? I don;t think you understand the consequences which comes from your belief in fables and gen 1.

But you are not even acknowledging my arguments. Either you don't understand them (which is possible, if you're an idiot, but I don't believe that) or you don't ***want*** to acknowledge them, because that would mean that maybe, just maybe, I am right and you are wrong.

what proof, what evidence? A story of a fable?

Not particularly. I have already come to the conclusion that you are not interested in being educated on that particular subject. Have you ever heard the phrase "Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Yeah it fits you perfectly.

you use a story to show it "Might be fable" with no proof.

I have read many scientific studies which show it is more likely it happened the way God said it did.

Think about it. Is God all powerful or not? Can he not speak the earth into existence with everything it needs to survive, operate and support plant and animal life? I guess according to you he is not?