Catholic Heresy (for the record)

Rickee · Jun 21, 2012

He cannot give you a verse about Praying The Rosary....but I can give you a verse by Jesus that tells us not to!..
Matthew 6 verse 7 " But when you pray, USE NOT VAIN REPETITIONS, AS THE HEATHENS DO: for they think that they shall be heard for their much Speaking" Amen

The Rosary is Repetitious prayer, over and over, and over, and Boring. The Rosary also glorifies Momma Mary with 72 prayers to her and only 6 " Our Fathers" to The Lord of Glory. This makes Mary 9 tomes more important to pray too...then Jesus!!...what total Blasphemy..

SantoSubito · Jun 21, 2012

Rickee said:

Okee dokie. All scripture quotations below are from the NRSV unless otherwise noted.

First up John 5:39: ‘You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf.

Nothing overtly Sola Scriptura there unless you read Sola Scriptura into it. Jesus is saying that the scriptures testify about him, nothing more, and nobody denies that.

Acts 17:2: And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three sabbath days argued with them from the scriptures,

Once again nothing overtly Sola Scriptura about that unless you read Sola Scriptura into it. Paul argued the case for Christ from the Scriptures, and thats all. The Catholic Church has had people who did the same since the beginning (St. John Chrysostom is a notable example).

Acts 17:11: These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so.

Same as the above really. The Jews searched the OT prophecies to see if they had been fulfilled in Christ, which is again not a very convincing argument for Sola Scriptura in the Bible.

Acts 15:7: After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers.

And this relates to Sola Scriptura how?

II Timothy 3:15-17: and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16Every scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

It is indeed true that without Scripture, we can't be completely equipped to do the will of God. But this verse doesn't say that scripture is the "only" thing we need. Furthermore, the Scripture referred to in this verse is, by definition, the Hebrew scriptures (the NT not being written yet and the preceding verses referring to the writings he studied in his youth (e.g., the Hebrew scriptures). By the logic you no doubt use, this verse would mean the Hebrew scriptures alone are sufficient (and they certainly don't mean that).

Joshua 1:8: This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to act in accordance with all that is written in it. For then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall be successful.

I don't see how a verse saying to meditate and follow the OT law supports Sola Scriptura either.

So you got anything a bit more explicit?

SantoSubito · Jun 21, 2012

Rickee said:

In that verse "vain repetitions" is better translated as "babble" or "empty phrases", which better conveys the intent and the meaning. Anyway strictly repetitious prayer being banned is of course not the case, as every devout Jew prayed the Psalms repetitiously every week in the Synagogue, at the various hours of prayer in the Temple, and at home. Synagogue worship also consisted of pre-written sets of prayers.

What Christ is speaking of is that when the pagans prayed it was believed that their prayers had to uttered with the right phrasing, emphasis on the correct syllables, not too fast but not too slow, and to be effective the prayers were extremely long. In particular there was a very specific type of monophonic chant that had to be used when offering sacrifice or the deity would not hear you, and if you stumbled over a word the god would not listen. To the Romans and other pagans it was believed that it was how you said the words that mattered and not your intent or even the words themselves.

As a random silly example, Oh great Ares, destroyer of cities, sacker of man and nations, who laid low the blah blah and fired the blah blah and on and on and on. Such invocations in the written Roman prayers I've read would go on for about half a page (or around 700 words) until you actually got to the part where you asked for something.

First, no duh it's 72 Hail Marys it's a Marian devotion, but that does not mean that Christ is somehow less important than Jesus and it isn't a popularity contest. The heart of the Rosary, without which it is meaningless, is the Mysteries which are meditated on as we pray each Hail Mary, and all but two of those Mysteries focus on events in the life of Christ.

Also if you think praying something like the Rosary is boring you must have never liked spending time contemplating the life of Christ.

murraymuzz · Jun 21, 2012

Rickee said:

So according to your logic Jesus was using vain repetitions

Matthew 26:36-44
Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

I don't need to prove everything catholics do from the bible, because we believe sola scriptura is unbiblical, so if there is a verse out there that says don't pray a rosary, you have no case against it.

murraymuzz · Jun 21, 2012

Rickee said:

You realize that quote you have there is Jesus speaking to the pharisee's and rebuking them for searching the scriptures for their own salvation? I like how you cut that bit out to suit your ideaology, lets see what it really says:
John 5:31-45
“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

As you can see there that part I underlined seems to go agaisnt you and sola scriptura.

Spartacus1122 · Jun 21, 2012

I still insist that Rickee (& Co.) look up the Holy League, The Siege of Malta and the Knights of Malta, the Siege if Vienna, and the Battle of Lepanto.
Perhaps a little history ought to help expand a person's horizons so that they may at least RESPECT someone's denomination of the same Christian faith.

As I said earlier, if it wasn't for the RCC, we would probably be not having this discussion.

loveme1 · Jun 21, 2012

Spartacus1122 said:

I think you mean if it weren't for Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah we would not be having this conversation.

Your last line speaks volumes to me.

It is bad enough you are deluded by the catholic church, do not come here singing there praises.... you know not, what tune you sing to....

Spartacus1122 · Jun 21, 2012

Good job dodging the ball.
All you do is repeat yourself, instead of actually opening up to different perspectives (for your information, it does not equate to "converting").

It was the Holy League that took arms against the Islamic threat. It were the brave Knights of Malta who gave their lives to save Christianity. It was the Christian fleet who gave the final fatal blow to the Ottoman naval supremacy. And yes, of course God gave them the strength to fight and win.

You may disagree or disapprove of our customs, doctrine, and rituals. I respect that.
But to call it "delusion" undermines the historic significance of those events, and actually speaks real volumes of your obtuse, disturbingly ignorant mindset.

loveme1 · Jun 21, 2012

Spartacus1122 said:

Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah are not worshiped by that religion, it is pagan through and through.

You are deluded and I may be ignorant, but it is not worshiping Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

Time will reveal all things....

It is Yahvah God that you do the abominable things against not me.......

Spartacus1122 · Jun 21, 2012

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The final piece of the puzzle. At least now I know not to take your comments seriously.

Be well

loveme1 · Jun 21, 2012

Spartacus1122 said:

You don't take the word of Yahvah God seriously, so why would you of ever listened to anything i said?

I say to you, that when that piece of the jigsaw comes into view... you will not be laughing.

sitwatcher · Jun 21, 2012

murraymuzz said:

Rosary praying is highly unbiblical.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 21, 2012

SantoSubito said:

As did I

You and scripture disagree about baptism. You make it a work to earn salvation. I make it an act of God by which we are washed and made clean and given salvation. Huge difference.

SantoSubito · Jun 21, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

More like me and your relatively new interpretation of scripture disagree about baptism.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 22, 2012

SantoSubito said:

lol.. wow. well thanks. If this is all you have I will stick to my biblical view on baptism. and not be like the jew who thinks a physical ceremony of cleansing saves them. I mean why do you need Christ when you can be circumcised, or get wet in water (baptized) to be washed of sin? Thats why they rejected him in the first place, they too thought their tradition and ceremony saved them. And he would not allow them to have himself and their tradition, nor would the apostles. that is why Paul wrote so much against a works based Gospel. because they wanted Christ and the sacraments of their faith also. you can't have it both ways, Your either saved by grace through faith in the work of Christ. or saved by works. Paul made it clear. NOT OF WORKS.

dctalkjfreak · Jun 22, 2012

Matthew 7:1

Red33 · Jun 22, 2012

If we preach and present the gospel to any man, who is lost and has not been cleansed from sin, if they reject that gospel and refuse to believe, what are we to judge? Without being forgiven and cleansed from sin and receiving the righteousness of God through Christ, where will the unbeliever spend eternity? Do we judge that God is righteous and those that reject His righteousness will be numbered with the wicked? We can believe God for them and hope for the best through the love of God, but eternity is the destiny of all souls, either separated from God or reconciled to Him through the blood of Christ. There are no exceptions and we judge that without mercy and the blood of Christ no man can be saved from the wrath and condemnation of God.

systemdown101 · Jun 23, 2012

SantoSubito said:

See, that's something I really don't get. Why not say "Hail Jesus/Yeshua" instead while focusing on the events of Christs life?

Spartacus1122 said:

This isn't an argument you want to use, because it does open you up to people using many other things the Church has done as a counter-argument.

Lifelike · Jun 24, 2012

dscherck said:

Not all Catholics are Christians. You dont become a Christian by becoming Catholic. You become a Christian by receiving the Word of God, and being made alive in the Spirit, and following Christ. It requires a spiritual birth, we are birthed into the kingdom, we don't just join. You need to be made alive from the dead, it takes the resurrection power of God in Christ to make you a true believer. God draws many by His Holy Spirit and He works in many unbelievers to bring them to the place of repentance, but until they have repented and received Christ, they are dead in their sins.

SantoSubito · Jun 24, 2012

systemdown101 said:

Thats just the way it developed as a Marian devotion. There is a variation of it that uses the Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner"). Catholics obviously don't see a problem with the Rosary because the closer we draw to Mary the closer we draw to Christ, because she always points towards her Son.

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

Rickee

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SantoSubito

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murraymuzz

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murraymuzz

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Spartacus1122

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loveme1

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