Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

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Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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Right off the bat I want to confess I'm currently a partial-preterist, or I'd rather call it orthodoxical preterism because it's the full and hyper-preterist that need the qualifier. So I'm going to try to explain to you with 15 reasons why I believe Babylon the Great Harlot of Revelation 17-18 can be none other then 1st century ancient Jerusalem (Israel). Beware, this is a long and exhaustive study and I'm sorry in advance for any typos.

I would also like to tell you I'm not anti-Israel, neither am I pro-Israel. I'm not anti-semite. I'm pro-peace, both for Israel and the Palestine.

Revelation 17, Who is Mystery Babylon

15 reasons why Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17 is 1st Century Jerusalem. Granted, some of these characteristics may apply to other cities, however, all of these characteristics must apply and be true to properly identify who the MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS is.
1) Revelation 17:1 makes reference to a great harlot who sits on many waters. Verse 15 helps us a lot in telling who this great harlot is. The word “waters” can not be interpreted literally here, because verse 15 interprets this for us. The waters are “are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.” I believe that Jesus is making a comparison here that ancient Babylon in its gloriest of days is much like 1st Century Jerusalem in its day.


1st Century Jerusalem had a great influence over the nations of the world (Roman inhabitants, Roman occupied areas, the world which was known to the region of Roman). It was the last major cities that the Roman armies had conquered. It was the center for trade and worship in the region. From the very beginning it was to bless the families of the Earth (Earth can mean inhabited land or region, ex Matt. 2:6 uses same word is use but most translators translate G1093 “ge” here as land. I believe whenever you see “ge” or Earth in Revelation, it should be translated as land in most or all cases). In Genesis 12:3 God says, “I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (same here, Earth, H0127 can simply mean ground, land, territory, or whole inhabited earth etc.). This is the first and initial calling of Abram and the promise that through Abram the whole world will be blessed. This rings true because through Abraham came the messiah. What greater blessing is for the world is there, the families of the Earth, that messiah came through Abram to Jews and gentiles, the whole world has a redeemer that wasn't just meant for a race or nationality but for everyone, nor a little strip of land but the whole globe!


What does the name Babylon mean? It has two meanings, first it means gate of deity, many web sites put it “The form Babylon is the Greek variant of Akkadian Babilu (bāb-ilû, meaning "Gateway of the god(s)", translating Sumerian Ka.dingir.ra): also see babylon. definition | Bible Dictionary Jerusalem (the head or capital of Israel) was to be the true Babylon, for God actually had His dwelling there in the temple and in which it actually was a gateway, because God opened the gate of heaven and sent to us His son. Second, it means babel, which is to confuse. A point I'd like to make about Babilu, “Gateway of God” is this, Jerusalem was center of Old Testament, Old covenant worship because of the temple. No other city, nation, establishment, whatever, can make this claim. Another point about Babel, it was the confusion of tongues, it's the beginning of all the different languages (Gen. 11:9) and all the nations originated from here (I'm not saying that the story of babel took place geographically where Jerusalem was). What world changing and significant event is this!; and what other very significant and world changing event took place? One in Jerusalem! Where the Jewish religious zealots confused their true messiah as a faults one. The old testament scriptures are clear, Daniel's prophecies, Isaiah 53, etc. speak of it, they shouldn't have missed Him. Jerusalem was the (like a) capital of the nation that was supposed to bring spiritual blessings to the world. They had everything, the law, the prophets, the temple, the word of God, and for a short time they were the (God's) capital of the world. But through their sinfulness, rejecting God and Christ, they were dispensed through out the Earth (Assyrian and Babylon captivities), just as original Babel was scattered in Gen 11:9. Amazing what God had done in Babel, and what He had undone in Jerusalem at pentecost (see the parallel).


Therefore, at the time of Christ, many Jews came from all over the region to worship, especially at the passover celebration. They came from different nations (which also could be interpreted tribes) and also spoke different languages (Acts 2 is proof of this, the Day of Pentecost). 1st Century Jerusalem became the center where all tribes from all over the region gathered for the Jewish festivals. Acts 2:5 verifies this, that the Jews gathered from all nations. What other nation, city, establishment or whatever, who is called a harlot (Jerusalem is the only city in the OT that called a harlot. I'll further explain in reason 2), who can claim such a gathering as this? (Rev. 17:15, “are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues”). My answer is 1st Century Jerusalem.


2) Babylon the great harlot is guilty of fornication. There is overwhelming biblical evidence that Israel, Jerusalem in particular is a great harlot and guilty of adultery:
Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a harlot!
It was full of justice;
Righteousness lodged in it,
But now murderers.
(NKJV)
Jeremiah 13:27
I have seen your adulteries
And your lustful neighings,
The lewdness of your harlotry,
Your abominations on the hills in the fields.
Woe to you, O Jerusalem!
Will you still not be made clean?”

Under the heading in Isaiah 57 “Israel’s Futile Idolatry” in have in verse 3 (NKJV):
You offspring of the adulterer and the harlot!”

Please read all of Ezekiel 16, this should convince you who the greatest harlot was for in verse 15 God says, “But you trusted in your own beauty, played the harlot because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it.” Also verses 25-26 You built your high places at the head of every road, and made your beauty to be abhorred. You offered yourself to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your acts of harlotry. You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger.”God later calls them and adulterous wife, and He states that they actually paid other nations to be their lovers. Normally men pay the harlot for sex, but here the harlot pays the strangers for them to come and have sex with her. What greater harlotry can there be? Granted, all cities and nations play the harlot to some degree, but what other nation or city is there that God calls His wife, who pays and actually begs other strangers (nations) to be her lover (idolatry). Jerusalem was so bad in her fornication that they were worse then a normal prostitute, who gets paid for being one. But Jerusalem paid her lovers to come and be in bed with her. Again, who else in scripture is called a great harlot? Also read Ezekiel 23.


3) Who is the woman sitting on the scarlet beast in revelation 17:3? And who is the beast? Back in Revelation 17:9-10 and Rev. 13 we see that the beast is 1st century Ancient Rome. The Roman empire is the beast corporately and Nero is the the beast individually. Many futurist say the beast is a revived Rome, America, or some religious establishment but of coarse nothing can be proven if it's yet future, and neither is a revived Roman empire, nor America, nor a religious institution referred to as a beast any where in scripture. Proving that ancient Rome is the beast is another topic, so I won't get in it here. So if you disagree with me that the beast is ancient Rome then you'll just have to ask yourself what if it is, and ponder the possibility (Please take into consideration all the time references in Rev. 1-1,3, the letters Rev. 2 and 3, Rev. 22:7 and 20. Please take into consideration that the Lord told Daniel to seal up the book for the time is not yet, but the Lord told John not to seal up the book, in other words, to push it out now, for the time is at hand, Rev. 22:10... And yes, I believe Rev. was written before 70
AD. See Dating of Revelation).


The woman sitting on the beast can't be Rome, because it wouldn't make any sense having Rome riding on Rome. So the woman and beast have to be two separate things and not the same. In that day, Jerusalem was the only city that was allowed to continue in Godly temple worship (even though some of the sacrifices were also made to other gods and to the emperors in the temple). The Roman empire had conquered all the surrounding nations (the 4th Satanic beast in Daniels prophecy). Jerusalem was a well thought of city for all around, therefore to some extent and more then any other city, was allowed be self-governed. In this way, Jerusalem rode on the back of the Roman empire. Jerusalem enjoyed and relied on Rome for her economics and military protection. But later Jerusalem grew more boldly and confrontational to Rome and it's emperors. Jerusalem invoked Rome to anger and Rome grew hateful towards Jerusalem and the Jews (see point 12). All other populated areas had to submit to the full worship of the emperor Caesar, which is why we have the 7 letters to the churches in Rev. 2-3 where Jesus warns them not to loose heart and to encourage them to be over-comers of the intense persecution (both from their own countrymen and the Romans). Actually, the Jewish religious zealots where the first ones to persecution the Christians and actually encouraged the Roman authorities to join them. We see this with Jesus' own crucifixion and in the book of Acts regarding the apostle Paul and through out the New Testament (read Acts 24:1-3 and John 19:15).


4) Babylon was clothed in fine attire (Rev 17:4) see references Isaiah 3:16-23; Ezekiel 16:9-14; Ezekiel 23:40-42; Exodus 28 – read about the attire they had to wear. There is nothing more God could have done for them as far as blessings go. They were supposed to be cream of the crop- Isaiah 5:4. Notice in Exodus 28:6 the particular colors of the garments, the breastplate, ephod, robe, tunic, turban, and sash are all made with the colors purple and scarlet. In Rev. 17:4 the woman was dressed in attire of purple and scarlet.
 

Bookends

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5) Message on her forehead – All faults religions can be called a harlot. However, to be a Mother of Harlots would mostly fit a nation who had received the most light, been given privilege and chosen by God to bring glory and honor to the Lord for the world's sake, to bless the whole earth and then eventually turn and follow other gods. What else could fit this description other then fleshly Israel and Jerusalem? They rejected their king and accepted Caesar as their king (John 19:15) Apostate Jerusalem was the mother of the bondwoman (Gal 4:21-31) , the New Jerusalem, Abraham seed (spiritual seed, not one of flesh or race, but those who have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree), the true seed, the church (OT and NT saints) true believers who now belong to the free woman.


Read Exodus 32, what we think (our world view) and do is how God puts His mark on us.
Jeremiah 3:3
“Therefore the showers have been withheld,
And there has been no latter rain.
You have had a harlot’s forehead;
You refuse to be ashamed.”



6) Jerusalem is sovereign in ruling over the kings of the Earth (land). Rev. 17:18, here we see that the woman is a city. Jerusalem is a great city (Rev. 11:8), What city of god, if any, was biblically chosen to represent God, be the center of worship to God, where did Jesus go to fulfill His destiny? Rev. 19:16 Jesus is Lord of Lords, king of kings. Luke 19:41-44 – Jerusalem is the only city that Jesus wept over: what house did Jesus call His house and that house was where? And Jesus at the end of Matt. 23 now calls the temple “your house" is left to you desolate, instead of His house. Psalm 48:1-3 God dwelt in the temple in Jerusalem. Read Rev. 21:1-5 - The “great city” = 1st century Jerusalem + the New Jerusalem is the only city that the bible He calls the “great city”; see Rev 21:10 (except Nineveh and Gibeon). In Matt 5:35, Jerusalem = City of the great king.


7. Jerusalem is divided into 3 parts (Rev. 16:19). There 3 different ways that you can say this great harlot (city) was divided. 1) In Judgment. Read Ezekiel 5:1-12, 1/3 will be burned with fire, 1/3 will be killed with the sword, and 1/3 will be scattered among the nations. (Side note: compare Ezekiel 5:9 with Matthew 24:21). This actually rang true regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. 2) Like literal Babylon, it was divided into 3 geographical parts: a. The upper city was walled off, where the wealthy lived, b. The lower city was walled off, where the middle income and poor lived, and c. The temple area was walled off from the rest of the city. 3. They where divided into 3 political parties, a. John Levi of Giscala, leader of the Galileans, b. Simeon, Leader of the Idumeans , and c. Eleazar, leader of the zealots. These 3 parties where possibly more responsible for more deaths in Jerusalem then the Roman army, and according to Josephus the historian they were.


8) Revelation 17 verse 6, I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” This should be an easy one, who is responsible for killing the saints and prophets? No other city in the bible is identified in this manner other then Jerusalem. There are no more prophets in the same sense after Jesus Christ, in other words, God will no longer gives prophetic revelations or utterances regarding God's redemptive plan (besides John the revelator). Hebrew 1:1,2 states, “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;” My point here is that many bible commentators want to say that “Babylon the great harlot” is a revised Roman empire, or the Catholic church, or the New World Order, etc. etc. but you'd be hard press to prove any of these because the bible never mentions these things. And verse 18 clearly identifies the woman as a great city!


What other city does the bible clearly identify as killing the saints and prophets? Luke 13:34-35, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” . Also in Luke 11:49-51, “Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.(NKJV)


9) Babylon was inhabited by demons. In Rev. 18: 2 John reports that Babylon has fallen, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons... The bible only speaks of 2 Jerusalems; 1. one that is defiled, old (ancient) Jerusalem, and 2) the new Jerusalem which is symbolic of Earth restored to the eternal state (Rev. 21: 22-27). Our hope and desire should be focused on the new Jerusalem, not a worldly one. Babylon here can't be Rome or any other institution, because Rome in particular was destroyed within, not by a conquering army nor by fire. I'll demonstrate later that Babylon (Jerusalem) was destroyed by fire, reason 12.

Sense New Jerusalem can't be inhabited by demons, I must demonstrate to you that old Jerusalem was inhabited by demons. If we look back to Jesus life on Earth, or in the land and region of Israel, we see many miracles Jesus casting out demons. Casting out demons was a common practice of Jesus, His apostles and disciples. Luke 10, the Lord sends out 70 followers to all the towns and cities where Jesus was to go, to preach the kingdom. When the 70 came back, they told Jesus in verse 17 that “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” This suggests to me that they encountered demons, demon possessed people and exorcised them out. Mary Magdalene was possessed with 7 demons Mark 16:9. Also, Jesus tells the Israelites, especially the scribes and the Pharisees, that He has left their house desolate, which I believe to not only have a wooden literal meaning, but the condition of their heart. And if their hearts are left to be desolate, empty, then this gives Satan an opportunity to occupy it. What happens when Jesus comes and cleanses the temple, speaking of both the temple and the heart? The evil one goes out and grabs 7 more demons and possesses it, and makes it worst then the first time of possession (Matthew 12:43-45).

In Matthew 23:15 Jesus calls the scribes and Pharisees sons of Hell and in 33 He calls them again serpents, brood of vipers. In Rev. 2:9 John writes to the church of Ephesus “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.” I don't know if you know this or not, but if you are in Christ, you are a Jew, a true Jew, a spiritual Jew (Rev. 3:9 says the same thing).


In Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26, which I suggest you read again, you'll see similarities between God's judgment regarding Israel for her disobedience and God's judgment in Revelation (upon whomever you think God's judgment is being poured upon in Revelation, which I think is old Jerusalem, 70AD). In Deuteronomy 28:34 in particular, God says that they (Israel) will be driven mad. I believe that driven mad is a reference to being possessed by demons. Verse 28 says, The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart.”And in verse 56-57 predicts the dire straights that the Jews will go through, such as eating of one's child. You'd have to be out of your mind to do that! It is also well know that during the siege of Jerusalem that this sort of thing actually happened and Josephus the Historian actually records that a woman offered to the Roman soldiers a morsel of her child.


Demons were released from the bottomless pit and allowed to torment the unsaved in Revelation 9:1-12 and Rev. 16:12-14 (remember, I believe that earth, could and should be interpreted as Land in Revelation. And I would also contend that the Great day of the almighty is a description of God's judgment on Jerusalem and their religious system. The are many references in the Old Testament that the “day of the Lord” is a day of judgment upon a city or nation, Joel 2:1-11 and Isaiah 13 are 2 of many passages proving this point). Basically what I'm saying here is that God gave Satan permission to torment the unbelieving Jews. Where else would you find the most concentration of demons other then where the Lord's has focused His work?


10) God's People were called out of her (Babylon, Israel).Revelation 18:4 reads, “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.”(NJKV)What is the only biblically city that God called His people out of? Ancient Babylon and Jerusalem! Ancient Babylon I believe was a type or shadow of Jerusalem, just the name itself suggests that, as I demonstrated in reason 1, meaning the Gate of God and confusion. And now we have another similarity, the calling out of God's people. InLuke 21:20, Jesus Himself conveys the message to flee to the mountains when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Why?, Luke answers this in verse 22, For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.(NKJV)This is not only a reference to Christ, His first coming and His work of redemption, but also to all the types and shadows pertaining to His kingdom and destruction of ancient Jerusalem, prophecies in Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel etc., and perhaps including the 7 feasts that pre-wrathers confuse aren't fulfilled.


God always has a remnant to save. God also called His people out of ancient Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem and the (2nd) temple. After Christ's death and complete destruction of old temple worship system, God is still in the process of rebuilding His temple (His Church), not one made with human hands (Acts 7:48-50, Acts 17:24, 1 Cor. 3:16, Hebrews 9:11, 2 Cor. 5:1, Mark 14:58) in which Jesus is the cornerstone, and us, the saints, are living stones. This temple the Apostle Peter alludes to in 1 Peter 2:5, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (NKJV). BTW, in the New Jerusalem there is no temple (Rev. 21:22) Can't you all see the parallel here?


The Christians in Jerusalem did flee to the mountains, this is recorded in history, they fled to the mountains of Pella. I'll save you all the details, but you can investigate the fight to Pella here: The Flight to Pella.
What does Jesus command us to do today? To go out into the world and preach the gospel (Matt28:19-20), not to flee, come out it or flee from it. Although there is an application for us to flee an apostate church or the WORLD!
 

Bookends

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11) Babylon was very boastfulRevelation 18:7 states, “In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.”(NKJV) The Jews and Titus, the commander of the Roman army during the time of the siege, never thought that they could penetrate the walls of Jerusalem, for she was the most fortified city in the region. Thus the inhabitants of Jerusalem thought that they had the advantage against their attackers, and not only that, they still thought God was on their side. They failed to recognized that God was bringing His armies (even-though pagan) against them (Matt. 22:7).



Not only did they think ancient Jerusalem was invincible, but no other city in ancient history could claim to be the city of God. Therefore Jerusalem actually had the bragging rights, for in the OT we see that God had dressed her up and married her. But what many of us fail to see is that God also handed apostate Israel divorce papers for adultery. And what was the OT law of punishment for adultery? Death. Read Jeremiah 3:8 and Hosea 2:2. Titus himself said that it was God Himself who destroyed Jerusalem and it was predicted that Israel's adversary would say something similar to this in Deut. 32:27. Jerusalem had pride of their own abilities and thought God would not abandon them (Jeremiah 12:4). They had pride in their own abilities and could not discern the season of their destruction (Luke 12:54-56). And there was nothing more God could to have done in blessing Israel (Isaiah 5:4) as I said in reason 4.



12) The harlot will be hated by the beast and burned with fire in Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” The Roman empire hated Israel and Jerusalem because they didn't bow to the alters of the Caesars, but the Roman emperors tolerated Israel because she paid them taxes. This is what is meant by what is said that Israel paid her lover (Rome) to be her lover. And when Israels pride grew and Israel rebelled and didn't want to pay her taxes, nor completely bow to the emperors, Rome's anger grew towards her and destroyed her (Jerusalem) with fire.


This harlot depicted in Rev. 17:16 can't be Rome, or a NWO, or Catholic church, or whomever you think it may be. Ancient Rome wasn't burned with fire, it was brought down from within by Christians. And how can an institution, like a NWO or apostate universal church as a whole burn with fire? We know that Jerusalem was burned with fire, and that the Roman soldiers tore apart the temple building, while gathering all the melted gold from the burning temple. Daniel 2:40-44 describes the 4th Satanic kingdom which is Rome and also tells how it will fall (verse 44), which is by Christ's kingdom. Therefore right after the 4th Satanic kingdom comes the Kingdom of our Lord, which started at His ascension and in which I believe is our current age, the visible church. For we have victory in Christ even-though the heavenly eternal state hasn't materialized yet, but yet Christ already sees us siting next to Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). 1 Tim. 4:8 states that the promise is granted to us now and which is to come later (not later as in a millennial reign, but rather later in the eternal state) And my bible gives a reference to verse 8b from Psalms 37:9, “For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.”(NKJV)


13) The Harlot will be punished double for her sins. Revelation 18:6 reveals to us, “Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.” (NKJV). Why should any city be punished double for her sins? WHY? I'll tell you, Luke 12:47,48 gives some insight on this, Jerusalem was given the most light from God, but rejected it. Not only once, but twice, and she was destroyed twice, in 586 BC and 70 AD. I also believe that receiving double the punishment is also referring the degree of punishment, turmoil, plagues, etc. Lets see how hard it is for find an OT reference, umm, not hard at all, Isaiah 40:2, speaking of Jerusalem:
“Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her,
That her warfare is ended,
That her iniquity is pardoned;
For she has received from the Lord’s hand
Double for all her sins.
(NKJV)


Those in Christ today are those who are comforted. Those in Christ are citizens of the New Jerusalem. Speaking of the restored Jerusalem, In which I believe Jeremiah 16:14-21 is talking about and Isaiah 61, the prophetic rendering of the Church. In Jer. 16:18 speaks directly that old Jerusalem was punished double, “And first I will repay double for their iniquity and their sin, because they have defiled My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable idols.” (NKJV)
Well, clearly you should see that God proclaimed double punishment upon ancient Jerusalem, and see that it fits Rev. 18:6 perfectly, regardless of the failure to recognize the coming Church being proclaimed:
Jeremiah 16:19-21
19. O Lord, my strength and my fortress,
My refuge in the day of affliction,
The Gentiles shall come to You
From the ends of the earth
and say,
Surely our fathers have inherited lies,
Worthlessness and unprofitable things.”

20. Will a man make gods for himself,
Which are not gods?

21. “Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know,
I will cause them to know
My hand and My might;
And they shall know that My name is the
Lord.

Isaiah 61:1-3 (parenthesis displays my emphasis added)
1. “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,(Christ)
Because the Lord has anointed Me
(Christ)
To preach good tidings to the poor;
(Christ)
He has sent Me
(Christ) to heal the brokenhearted,(sinners, us, the church)
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
(sinners, us, slaves of sin and in bondage to sin)
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
(the gentiles, the whole world, bondage to sin)
2. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
(His redemptive work on the Cross)
And the day of vengeance of our God;
(upon all who reject him, including Israel)
To comfort all who mourn,
(those who see their sin and repent wholeheartedly)
3. To console those who mourn in Zion,
(those who see their sin and repent wholeheartedly, specifically those in Jerusalem, God's remnant, disciples, apostles, 1st Century Church which consisted mostly of converted Jews, Acts 2-Pentecost)
To give them beauty for ashes,
(Christ exchanges our sin and sorrows for his righteousness)
The oil of joy for mourning,
(Salvation is bitter sweet, we can't be save until we see our sin and the hurt we caused God. But once we realize that, we receive the Holy Spirit and Joy, the Comforter)
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
(saints are given robes of righteousness because they recognized their sin and believe in Christ's full payment for it, GRACE)
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
(we become grafted into the one cultivated olive tree, the vine of the Lord, Jews and gentiles alike, we become brothers of the first born)
The planting of the Lord
(the church), that He may be glorified.” (NKJV)
 

Bookends

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14) God avenges His saints, prophets and apostles. Revelation 18:19-20 reveals, They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’ “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
What other city in the whole world has has killed the saints, prophets and apostles in the degree that ancient Jerusalem did? Who killed the most important prophet of all? Rev. 11:8, the great city, where our Lord was crucified, where the two witnesses testified against sinful Israel. The two witnesses are none other then Law and Prophets with Moses and Elijah as their representatives. Jesus judged ancient Jerusalem by Old Covenant Laws, by having these two witnesses Christ was justified in having apostate Israel put to death for adultery (corporately, not individually). For in Rev. 19:2 is says, “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”(NKJV)
I believe Matt. 24:3-34 Jesus is answering 1 big question, broken down in 3 parts. And context is found in the prior chapter and verse 1 and 2 of 24, which is the foundation of the question, the framework the question, and is based upon the destruction of the temple. All the things Jesus mentions in verses 3-33 I can scripturally and historically prove they all happened (but for time sake I'll spare you the details, maybe in another post, Lord willing). And after verse 33 Jesus says Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.(NKJV) Did Jesus tell his listeners to pay specific attention to the things that were to happen 2000+ years from then? Is Jesus grammatically challenged when He said "you", meaning them, and "this generation" but actually meaning that generation? Throughout scripture where “this generation” occurs always applies to the current generation in the OT and NT, but for some reason when it comes to Matt. 24:34, it means the 21st Century Church. Is the Holy Spirit telling you something outside of Scripture? This blows my mind.


One more point on this and closer look at the question, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (NKJV) First, “when will these things be” I think we agree on, it's the destruction of the temple. Second, “what will be the sign of Your coming” doesn't have to mean His 2nd coming. For if you count all the times the Lord said He was coming then even His 1st physical coming wasn't His first coming (see Psa .18, Isa. 19:1) and Christ said to some of the seven Churches that He will come quickly (Rev. 2:5) to take away their lamp stand etc. God came to us in His physical form, comes to us in judgment, in salvation (Rev. 3:20), our trials and tribulation as protection and He'll come again in a physical form at he 2nd advent. Without the details, I claim they are asking what are the signs of Your coming destruction of the temple. For not only did they want to know when and what the signs are, but they also knew that it would mark the the end of the age!, not the world (as the KJV version would like you to believe). Which is why perhaps “and of the end of the age?” was included (look at the Greek text, the word is Aion, not Kosmos). Jesus was about to turn things upside down and upset their center of life, they existed for the temple, they centered their life around it. Their whole belief system had to be completely abolished to further the New Covenant which has better promises then the first. Furthermore, to say that we are going back to the old system of temple worship and sacrifices is like putting new wine in old wine skins, its trampling the work of Christ under foot and its saying that Christ's work wasn't good enough for the blood line of the Jews (a complete denial of the book of Hebrews). I'm sorry brothers and sisters, but I think it is heretical to say that God has two different types of His people and it goes against scripture. There is no partiality with God, Eph 6:9, 2 Chron. 19:7, Col. 1:28, Col. 3:25 and especially Galatians 3:28, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (NKJV) SORRY, I'm getting off topic.


Other scriptures to consider in relation to “God avenges His saints, prophets and apostles” showing that their persecution 1st came directly from the Jewish Religious Zealots and that God will avenge them are Acts 12:1-3, Matt 23:34-39, Luke 11:46-52, and Luke 13:34-35.


15) Finally the last one. God treads the winepress! Revelation 19:15c states, “He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” Who is the winepress? Israel through-out scripture is identified as God's vineyard. And God made a winepress in it (Isaiah 5:2). Look at the parable of workers in the vineyard Matt. 20:1-16, Isaiah 7:23,* Isaiah 5:1-30 - God’s Disappointing Vineyard * , Isaiah 1:8, and Jeremiah 12:10.


Conclusion: In order for Babylon the Great Harlot to be anything else but apostate Israel with ancient Jerusalem as her capital, would mean that whatever or whomever the Great Harlot is would have to meet ALL of these 15 criterias. I think God went through extensive length describing who Babylon is in Revelation is so that we can't and shouldn't mistake her for anything else. You can make the claim that Babylon the Great Harlot is America, or the New World Order, or the Catholic church, are even maybe the new revised Israel of today, but even the Israel of today does not meet all of these identifications. And to think that some Christians today support the transferring of Jews from all the nations to the Israel of today, just so that 2/3 of Jews can be slaughtered again in a current day apocalypse fulfillment of prophecy is frightening to me (pre-trib, pre-mil). I really hope and pray that you can would see that Abrahamic land covenant was conditional and was fulfilled in the time of King David and Solomon which was dependent upon Israel's obedience. But the Abrahamic covenant of blessings to all nations is dependent upon Christ, who kept our obedience for us. And those who believe in Christ become adopted into the family of Christ, thought the spiritual seed Isaac.

Galatians 3:16, “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.”
Ephesians 2:15-16, For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,”.Why the some of the Church wants to build this wall again is beyond me. Much of the NT teaching is warning not to go back to Judism, and yet the Church today in majority preaches that where we are headed in that direction in the next age to come, the millennium. Hebrews 11 masterfully puts it all together for us. Oh Lord, have mercy on your church.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#5
Babylon is confusion. Like all names in scripture, inherently defined.
Remember the revelation (the whole thing, not just the start) is the revelation of Y'Shua, who's name is "Ya will save", the "end times" is the side story.
And this revelation of Y'Shua can only be a revelation if there's something yet unknown.
Peace.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#6
Right off the bat I want to confess I'm currently a partial-preterist, or I'd rather call it orthodoxical preterism because it's the full and hyper-preterist that need the qualifier. So I'm going to try to explain to you with 15 reasons why I believe Babylon the Great Harlot of Revelation 17-18 can be none other then 1st century ancient Jerusalem (Israel).
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
For the above verse to be true Babylon would have to contain the blood of all slain from the time Cain murdered Abel until the time the last person to be slain on this earth is slain. Babylon cannot be constrained by time or location. How can you Scripturally justify your statement that "1st century Jerusalem (Israel)" is Babylon when many of those slain on the earth were slain both before and after "1st century Jerusalem (Israel)"?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
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#7
Physical or "old" Jerusalem/kabbalism is Babylon.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
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#8
Mystery Babylon is where religion began. Nimrod was first king on the earth, he rebelled against God and started the paganism and built the tower of Babel.

Babylon was conquered eventually and the Pagan ways of Babylon were revived by Rome at a later date. Roman emperor Constantine created a church to combine both paganism and Christianity, which you can't do. It became the religion of Rome, as a way to control people both politically and religiously.

Rome is the whore of Babylon. John wrote Revelations from the Isle of Patmos and was using Babylon to describe Rome, the whore, that was responsible for the blood of the saints at that time. The saints suffered persecution from the Romans. John had escaped death and was writing about what had just happened as well as his vision of the future, where Rome would be involved.

Rome is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

All religion came from Babylon, which was revived by Rome.

Rome has put up a fight. She has survived to the current day, is here, will remain here until she meets her end as God has mentioned in the book of Revelations.

God's true church is described as the bride. The counterfeit bride is described as a prostitute, an impure church teaching false doctrines. This will be a church that many believe to be Christian but it is a counterfeit of Christianity.

The enemy is always attacking Israel. God has hardened the hearts of the Jews temporarily and offered salvation to us gentiles. Once all chosen gentiles are saved God will then focus on Israel. They will go through the tribulation and many will be saved through it. The Jews are definitely not the counterfeit prostitute because they are God's chosen people whereas Babylon is the abomination.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#9
A woman in Bible prophecy represents a church. The woman in Revelation 17 is a corrupt church. Compare the woman from 12 and 17.

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. True Mother dressed in White 12:1, 2 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Her children keep the Commandments 12:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Woman in the Wilderness 12:14 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Beast with 7 Heads, 10 Horns 12:3, 13:1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Babylon is Fallen! 14:8[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Testimony of Jesus 12:17
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] False mother dressed in purple 17:4[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Her Children are Harlots 17:5[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Woman in Wilderness 17:3[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Beast with 7 Heads & 10 Horns 17:3[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Babylon is Fallen 18:2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Testimony of Jesus 19:10[/FONT]
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#10
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
For the above verse to be true Babylon would have to contain the blood of all slain from the time Cain murdered Abel until the time the last person to be slain on this earth is slain. Babylon cannot be constrained by time or location. How can you Scripturally justify your statement that "1st century Jerusalem (Israel)" is Babylon when many of those slain on the earth were slain both before and after "1st century Jerusalem (Israel)"?

My question to you is does "all" always mean "all"? My answer, and it may not be your answer, is NO! Could "all" have a qualifier, defined by or just cover whom the biblical text context is referring to? For example, Mark 1:5 states, "Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.",following your argument, that would suggest that all those living in Judea came out and were baptized. Did king Herold come out to be baptized? Following your logic he did! And so did all the other wicked people living in Judea.

Another example Acts 22:15, Paul's informal inauguration,
" For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard." Are you suggesting that Paul was a witness to those living in Americas at that time, or the regions of what is now China, what those who past away, using your own argument, what about Cain? Did Paul see and talk to every single individual in the 1st century?

I can give you many more examples, but I won't for the sake of time. But if you are interested, look up Matthew 10:22, John 3:26, John 8:2 and ask you self the same question; Does "all" always mean "all"? In these scriptures "all" clearly does not in these instances mean every man without exception!

Looking at Revelation 18:24 again,
And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” , for 1 the context for whole book of revelation is found in Revelation 1:1-3, which is "things which must shortly take place"
and "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." The context of Revelation are the things and events that are about to happen in John's near future, which was the persecution of the 1st century saints by both ancient Israel and Rome and about Christ's army coming against an apostate nation and the fulfilling of prophecy spoken by Jesus Himself about the destruction of the temple. Further more, as I suggest, the wood "earth" could and should be translated "Land", because as I stated before Revelation was dealing with a particular region in a particular epic of time. And just because I put most of revelations events in the past, the 1st century, doesn't mean that there isn't any application for Christians to draw from it, for there certainly is!

Besides, no where in the bible is a "city" interpreted as a (faults) religious organization or system, or any world system (only when Jesus refers to the eternal state as the New Jerusalem). And to apply that city means something other then a city is to apply your own understanding and interpretation to biblical text that isn't found anywhere in scripture.
 
M

meecha

Guest
#11
God's true church is described as the bride. The counterfeit bride is described as a prostitute, an impure church teaching false doctrines. This will be a church that many believe to be Christian but it is a counterfeit of Christianity.

The enemy is always attacking Israel. God has hardened the hearts of the Jews temporarily and offered salvation to us gentiles. Once all chosen gentiles are saved God will then focus on Israel. They will go through the tribulation and many will be saved through it. The Jews are definitely not the counterfeit prostitute because they are God's chosen people whereas Babylon is the abomination.
Israel were the church in the wilderness...the word eklessia is used throughout the LXX to refer to Israel. Israel under the Saduccees and Pharisees proved itself to be the counterfiet church. It is dispensationalist theology that seeks to seperate completely the Christian Church and Israel. The Christian's are Abraham's children...unbelieving Jews are not Abraham's children. The " Jews" are not God's people. The Jews are not Jews but a synagogue of satan. That's what Jesus calls them. The righteous shall live by faith.ie they are children of Abraham. Bookends is spot on. Babylon the Great Harlot is Jerusalem. Actually the prophets had said this long before the Apostle John.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#12
Rome is the whore of Babylon.
wrong, Rome is describe as a beast, same as the other 3 satanic kingdoms in the book of Daniel.

John wrote Revelations from the Isle of Patmos and was using Babylon to describe Rome, the whore, that was responsible for the blood of the saints at that time.The saints suffered persecution from the Romans.
wrong again, and partly true. It was the apostate Jewish zealots who first persecuted the saints, the prophets, Jesus, and NT saints, ex. Stephen. Acts 6 and onward you will see that apostate Jews when out seeking to kill Christians, and also encourage Rome to join in doing so. The example of Paul before his converse also proves this.

John had escaped death and was writing about what had just happened as well as his vision of the future, where Rome would be involved.
Rome was certainly involved, not only in persecution of the saints especially under Nero, but God also used Rome to fulfill His own prophecy, Matthew 22:7 "But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

Rome is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.
Show how Rome meets all the requirements of mother of Harlots using your bible. May I remind you, Pontius Pilate did not want to crucify Jesus at first. But he only did so at the beckoning call of the Jews.

All religion came from Babylon, which was revived by Rome.
Absolutely faults, Rome didn't even exist as a Nation during most ancient Israel's existence. The nations and kingdoms around Israel worshiped other gods and corrupted Israel into following their practices.

Rome has put up a fight. She has survived to the current day, is here, will remain here until she meets her end as God has mentioned in the book of Revelations.
Rome today is very insignificant.

God's true church is described as the bride. The counterfeit bride is described as a prostitute, an impure church teaching false doctrines. This will be a church that many believe to be Christian but it is a counterfeit of Christianity.
Yes, this is the application I draw from Revelations. Christians of today will go through tribulations and persecutions from the WORLD during these times until the 2nd coming


The enemy is always attacking Israel.
Israel today is the Church, the true Israel. We don't replace ancient Israel, nor the OT saints, we are continuation of it under a new covenant.

God has hardened the hearts of the Jews temporarily and offered salvation to us gentiles. Once all chosen gentiles are saved God will then focus on Israel.
Show me scripture of this!

They will go through the tribulation and many will be saved through it. The Jews are definitely not the counterfeit prostitute because they are God's chosen people whereas Babylon is the abomination.
God makes it very clear that those who love Him are his chosen people

Got to go, thanks for the sharpening.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#13
My question to you is does "all" always mean "all"? My answer, and it may not be your answer, is NO! Could "all" have a qualifier, defined by or just cover whom the biblical text context is referring to?
Straw argument there is no qualifier in the verse or in the context that would suggest the verse means anything other then what it says and it says "of all that were slain upon the earth”
For her to have the blood of all that were slain upon the earth she cannot be constrained by time or location.


Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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#14
Much of the NT teaching is warning not to go back to Judism, and yet the Church today in majority preaches that where we are headed in that direction in the next age to come, the millennium. Hebrews 11 masterfully puts it all together for us. Oh Lord, have mercy on your church.
Bookends, last evening i read (x2) your work here.
by the Grace of Our Good Lord i've been blessed over the years to read many studies on this subject; have done my own studies and even penned a few.
But i have never seen one quite like this, with so many bases covered (for lack of a better term).
i know the diligence and care involved here in what is clearly a small portion of your very good work.
you are to be commended and listened to, you've faithfully studied and presented the word of the Lord.
amen.

looking forward to seeing more of what you have been given, as you freely give it.
i have a friend i would like to show this to. do you have a website where this is offered?
if not, may I copy and paste this into an email, linking back here to your user name (my friend will likely wish to see anything else you've written)?

though these theological school labels we are forced to attach to our understanding of the scriptures (i.e: partial preterist, amillennial, etc) are useful to some degree, they are surely insufficient when we speak as individuals.



with that said - i have some questions i'm hoping you may have already addressed (i haven't been reading yet today) or will have the time to address, just to fill in some of the blanks we end up with after having established the parameters of, say, the PP position as you've done so very well.

i can surely agree with virtually all you've seen in the scriptures and history. i agree the feasts are fulfilled, all things are filled up and are in the Person and Work of Christ.

my interest today would be in seeing where you go with a few things such as:

- what remains to play out, where do you see it written

- exactly what scriptures are being fulfilled by the deception of those in the outer court today (the broader covenant professors) and more specifically as it relates to the setting up of what's called the nation of Israel in Palestine today.

i have my own studies and research for comparison, so i'm excited today! your work has been a blessing.

i do believe the Spirit is very much at work conforming God's people to Christ and His doctrine in these days, as He always has.



Lord, cause us all to hear Thee, follow Thee, and bow to Thy Will alone.

in Christ's Holy Name, amen.


thank you Bookends
cenallen
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#15
wrong, Rome is describe as a beast, same as the other 3 satanic kingdoms in the book of Daniel.
Rome is the whore of Babylon that rides the beast.


wrong again, and partly true. It was the apostate Jewish zealots who first persecuted the saints, the prophets, Jesus, and NT saints, ex. Stephen. Acts 6 and onward you will see that apostate Jews when out seeking to kill Christians, and also encourage Rome to join in doing so. The example of Paul before his converse also proves this
The true church were persecuted by the Jews and Romans. Remember it was the Roman empire that was in power. They could not get the true church to submit to Roman authority, their Roman religion. Many died as martyrs for the truth. Rome has the blood of the saints.


Show how Rome meets all the requirements of mother of Harlots using your bible. May I remind you, Pontius Pilate did not want to crucify Jesus at first. But he only did so at the beckoning call of the Jews.
Yes, the Jews wanted Jesus crucified. Pilate did not want the blood on his hands so handed the decision over to the Jews. However, look at what happened to Christians at the hands of the Romans. Christians would not submit to any pope or Roman authority. The early church would meet in each other's homes to avoid persecution from the Romans. Rome wanted political, religious and monetary control over the people, a "one world system" where they could control everyone.

Not to mention Hitler was a Catholic and the Jesuits were involved with the Holocaust of the Jews.

The Babylonian mystery religion was revived by Rome. The Roman Catholic church is Babylonian, it came from Babylon. There is a ton of evidence to prove this.

I could throw a lot of scripture at you but how much time does one have to post it all? Regardless, you seem very stuck on your own opinion so what difference would anything I post make? I would just be wasting an hour of my time posting it.

Remember, the enemy goes after the children of God. Israel are repeatedly attacked because they are God's chosen people (though they are not yet saved), as are us saved gentiles also persecuted because we are God's children. We are grafted in.


Absolutely faults, Rome didn't even exist as a Nation during most ancient Israel's existence. The nations and kingdoms around Israel worshiped other gods and corrupted Israel into following their practices.
I was talking about Babylon. Paganism did not exist before Babylon, it all started there. Nimrod was first king on earth, rebelled against God and started the paganism that began in Babylon. From there paganism grew. Babylon was conquered and then eventually Rome revived the pagan practices which spread everywhere. This then gave birth to the Catholic church. The true Church (not Rome) would not submit to Roman authority and many were killed. Emperor Constantine took the paganism and merged Christianity with it, trying to get favor from Christians as well as Pagans. Rome was responsible for reviving the paganism that came from Babylon. This paganism spread.


Rome today is very insignificant
Yet look at their growth and current standing. Do you not know the history of the Jesuits? They've been a real scheming bunch. They are even in the government now. The pope is leader of ecumenical movement, trying to bring all religions together as one, under the leadership of Rome.

The Roman church is the counterfeit of Christianity. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (2 Cor 11:13-15) (Satan has a church and it will have a holy appearance when it's actually an abomination)


Yes, this is the application I draw from Revelations. Christians of today will go through tribulations and persecutions from the WORLD during these times until the 2nd coming
You emphasize 'world' to me as if I believe the persecution to only come from one specific group. Persecution is happening now in the world to believers. The enemy persecutes the saints and the non believers are under the influence of the enemy. Believers are trying to live godly lives in an ungodly world. God does say multiple times that we are spared the coming 7 year tribulation though because of our perseverance. However, Israel will be left to go through the tribulation.


Show me scripture of this! God makes it very clear that those who love Him are his chosen people
Mark 2:22: "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

Interesting scripture here mentions about establishing a New Covenant, a New Testament church. The Jews were unable to receive Jesus' corrections required so they were about to be made null and void.

(Jeremiah 31:31-34)

God hasn't turned His back on Israel (Romans 11 says their rejection not total or final). They are still His chosen people, they've just been temporarily hardened - Romans 11:25: "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Romans 11:21: "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" - we must not boast that we were grafted in and Israel failed.

Although the Jews deny Jesus as their Messiah, there are other religions out there that deny the sufficiency of His sacrifice also, so they are in the same boat, although sad for God as they are His chosen people and they denied Christ.

I know prophecy says a large number of Jews will be saved in the tribulation, but not all of them. They're not automatically immune because they are His chosen people, they actually have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Anyway, I leave this thread..
 
Last edited:
Aug 11, 2012
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#16
timed out.
EDIT/amended:

i can surely agree with virtually all you've seen in the scriptures and history (BUT THOUGH NOT ALL, and not all of your conclusions, this is by no means any criticism).
thank you Bookends
cenallen
 
Aug 11, 2012
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#17
Physical or "old" Jerusalem/kabbalism is Babylon.
tribesman, i agree.
since we see a revived image of that today (i might add possibly in a more fiercely powerful form), where do you see this phenomenon in the scriptures, if at all?
cenallen
 
Q

quakerzen

Guest
#18
A lot of scholars and historians think the Whore is an allegory for Rome, and that the reason a woman was chosen to represent Rome was b/c the goddess Roma was god that was used to embody Rome.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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#19
The enemy is always attacking Israel. God has hardened the hearts of the Jews temporarily and offered salvation to us gentiles. Once all chosen gentiles are saved God will then focus on Israel. They will go through the tribulation and many will be saved through it. The Jews are definitely not the counterfeit prostitute because they are God's chosen people whereas Babylon is the abomination.
this is classic dispensational error, Katy-follower.
we can not build a theological system on a misunderstanding of a single verse in Romans 11.
the Vatican is not the Great Harlot of Revelation per se. no, not all.
Bookends has compared scripture with scripture and we argue with the scriptures at our peril.

having said that, a closer look at the Vatican's 'leaders', imo, can link it directly to modern state of Israel's 'leaders' today - they have become one (the masses of 'catholics' and the masses of 'jews' are not who i'm referring to). of course all the world of unsaved (and too many who claim to be of Christ) are also involved. events are never random.

i do believe Rome and Jerusalem are back together again in cooperation, though under the control of a single deceiving entity. i think we're looking at a carnal, theatrical "play", based on a script stolen from the Holy One's word.

i'm convinced this is part of the Lord's Plan, it may be clearly seen as delusion both in the primary actors and the participating cast (nearly all directly involved are actually people in the spiritual outer court of the Lord's temple on earth, His church). since the carnal 'kingdom' is NOT Christ's, we ought to try to determine who is putting it together. more importantly, is it in the scriptures!


Prosopon originally meant "face" or "mask" in Greek and derives from Greek theatre, in which actors on a stage wore masks to reveal their character


this is the the next phase of study for PPs and Amillennials (imo).
we can not just say all things were fulfilled in c. 1 - then walk away.
or....can we?
 
Aug 11, 2012
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#20
A woman in Bible prophecy represents a church.
if that is so, i warn you SDA is nothing more than a daughter of its supposed enemy Rome.
SDA is a cult, built on a masonic foundation for carnal political purposes, and is playing its part well.
all the cults that appeared when SDA did are the same entity.