Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

marianna · Oct 23, 2012

No, they were nearly all killed. A few were taken as slaves into egypt. a very few were scattered.

The ones who escaped were Christians who had heeded the warning to leave when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. God kept His promise to protect them. He continues to, even if we die for our faith or die natural deaths, or in accidents or whatever. He ultimately protects us from eternal harm.

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. - Romans 2:29

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; - Romans 9:6

for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh - Philippians 3:3

Abiding · Oct 23, 2012

marianna said:

What a change of view when all what Paul developed is considered, such as what a Jew is,
and Who Israel is. If True Israel is a believer(remnant), not of the flesh(ethnic). And those hardened were cut off because
of unbelief, grafted back in when they accepted Messiah...then all Israel will be saved, according to definition.
But not later, then and through history.Seems to me.

iamsoandso · Oct 23, 2012

on one hand a man(commentators) say,,,,,and they write in their books,,,,,and they begin to quote Scripture,,,listen to "one of the seven angels"rev.17;1,,,,"one is"rev.17;10,,,,notice that the angel(one of the seven),,,just explained that "Rome",,,,the sixth head of the beast,,,"is" at the time this was being shown to john in ad 96 on pat-mos,,,notice that the angel,,,, "did not say Rome was the harlot/Babylon",,,,,,notice the angel said that Rome(one is),,,,,,,,,was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,so there were five heads that had came and had fallen before Rome,,,became the sixth head,,,,,notice this scripture rev.13;18,,,,,,,,,,,"he that hath wisdom let him count the number of the beast",,,,,,,as in,,,,,,"one beast,two beast,three,beast,four beast,five beast",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and then the sixth(Rome),,who was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,,,now go to rev.17;7,,,,,notice he(angel),,,tells john,,,he will tell him the mystery of the woman,,,,"and",,,,"and",,,,he tells the mystery of the woman,,and the 7 headed beast that carried her,,that had ten horns,,,,,,,,so dont confuse the two things he is showing you,,,,,,,,the woman,,,"and",,,the seven headed beast,,,,,,,and remember he has already told you that the sixth head(Rome),,"one is",,,,,,,and therefore it is not Babylon,,,,rev.17;8,,,the beast that (was),,so it was a kingdom before,Rome(one is),,,,,,,,and,,,,"is not",,,,,,that is of the six heads of the beast so far in history,,,(ad96),,,,five had came,,,one was(Rome),,and one of the five kingdoms before Rome,,,,was not a nation any longer,,,did not have a king,,,no military,,,,,,no temple to sacrifice to their god,,,,,,,,no citizens,,,,their kingdom did not exist at this time(ad96),,,,,,and they were of the five kingdoms that ruled the known earth before ad96,,,,,,rev.17;11,,,,"and",,,and the beast that was and is not even he is the eight,and is of the seven,,,,,notice the "eight head",,,is one of the first five,,,,,,the one that did not exist when Rome was a kingdom ,,,,,,,,,it is the head that shall,,,,rev.17;8,,,,,,"ascend out of the bottomless pit",,,,,,,,,,,,,"count the number of the beast,,,,,,,,1 beast,2 beast,three beast,four beast,,five beast,,,,,,,,the sixth is Rome,,,,who is the eight????he was of the five,,,,,and did not exist when "one of the seven angels told you this",,,,,,,,,,,

iamsoandso · Oct 23, 2012

iamsoandso said:

on one hand a man(commentators) say,,,,,and they write in their books,,,,,and they begin to quote Scripture,,,listen to "one of the seven angels"rev.17;1,,,,"one is"rev.17;10,,,,notice that the angel(one of the seven),,,just explained that "Rome",,,,the sixth head of the beast,,,"is" at the time this was being shown to john in ad 96 on pat-mos,,,notice that the angel,,,, "did not say Rome was the harlot/Babylon",,,,,,notice the angel said that Rome(one is),,,,,,,,,was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,so there were five heads that had came and had fallen before Rome,,,became the sixth head,,,,,notice this scripture rev.13;18,,,,,,,,,,,"he that hath wisdom let him count the number of the beast",,,,,,,as in,,,,,,"one beast,two beast,three,beast,four beast,five beast",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and then the sixth(Rome),,who was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,,,now go to rev.17;7,,,,,notice he(angel),,,tells john,,,he will tell him the mystery of the woman,,,,"and",,,,"and",,,,he tells the mystery of the woman,,and the 7 headed beast that carried her,,that had ten horns,,,,,,,,so dont confuse the two things he is showing you,,,,,,,,the woman,,,"and",,,the seven headed beast,,,,,,,and remember he has already told you that the sixth head(Rome),,"one is",,,,,,,and therefore it is not Babylon,,,,rev.17;8,,,the beast that (was),,so it was a kingdom before,Rome(one is),,,,,,,,and,,,,"is not",,,,,,that is of the six heads of the beast so far in history,,,(ad96),,,,five had came,,,one was(Rome),,and one of the five kingdoms before Rome,,,,was not a nation any longer,,,did not have a king,,,no military,,,,,,no temple to sacrifice to their god,,,,,,,,no citizens,,,,their kingdom did not exist at this time(ad96),,,,,,and they were of the five kingdoms that ruled the known earth before ad96,,,,,,rev.17;11,,,,"and",,,and the beast that was and is not even he is the eight,and is of the seven,,,,,notice the "eight head",,,is one of the first five,,,,,,the one that did not exist when Rome was a kingdom ,,,,,,,,,it is the head that shall,,,,rev.17;8,,,,,,"ascend out of the bottomless pit",,,,,,,,,,,,,"count the number of the beast,,,,,,,,1 beast,2 beast,three beast,four beast,,five beast,,,,,,,,the sixth is Rome,,,,who is the eight????he was of the five,,,,,and did not exist when "one of the seven angels told you this",,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,print it,,,,,,,,click print,,,,calculate it,,,count it,,,,,,do the math of what i told you,,,,,,,,

celestemekent · Oct 23, 2012

iamsoandso writes in a way that incredibly hard to read I wish he could skip the commas and write ordinary paragraphs like the rest of us. I do not find it amusing or creative just irritating and incredibly hard to read

iamsoandso · Oct 23, 2012

here is a bit more,,,,,,in Daniel,,,,there are four beast,,,,,beast one,no woman is riding him,,,,,beast two,,,no harlot is on her back,,,,beast three,,no whore mentioned,,,,,,,,,beast four with four heads,,,,,Babylon is still not riding him,,,,,,,,,,there is still no mention of the "mystery Babylon",,,,,,,,,,riding these heads,,,,,,,,,,,why???

iamsoandso · Oct 23, 2012

.......her back,,,,,,,

iamsoandso · Oct 23, 2012

you say,,,"no she was a he",,,,,but then you are one beast short when you count them,,,,,,,,,

Bookends · Oct 23, 2012

celestemekent said:

I think he takes in long breaths of air between spurts.

Bookends · Oct 23, 2012

iamsoandso said:

on one hand a man(commentators) say,,,,,and they write in their books,,,,,and they begin to quote Scripture,,,listen to "one of the seven angels"rev.17;1,,,,"one is"rev.17;10,,,,notice that the angel(one of the seven),,,just explained that "Rome",,,,the sixth head of the beast,,,"is" at the time this was being shown to john in ad 96 on pat-mos,,,notice that the angel,,,, "did not say Rome was the harlot/Babylon",,,,,,notice the angel said that Rome(one is),,,,,,,,,was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,so there were five heads that had came and had fallen before Rome,,,became the sixth head,,,,,notice this scripture rev.13;18,,,,,,,,,,,"he that hath wisdom let him count the number of the beast",,,,,,,as in,,,,,,"one beast,two beast,three,beast,four beast,five beast",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and then the sixth(Rome),,who was the sixth head of the seven headed beast,,,,,now go to rev.17;7,,,,,notice he(angel),,,tells john,,,he will tell him the mystery of the woman,,,,"and",,,,"and",,,,he tells the mystery of the woman,,and the 7 headed beast that carried her,,that had ten horns,,,,,,,,so dont confuse the two things he is showing you,,,,,,,,the woman,,,"and",,,the seven headed beast,,,,,,,and remember he has already told you that the sixth head(Rome),,"one is",,,,,,,and therefore it is not Babylon,,,,rev.17;8,,,the beast that (was),,so it was a kingdom before,Rome(one is),,,,,,,,and,,,,"is not",,,,,,that is of the six heads of the beast so far in history,,,(ad96),,,,five had came,,,one was(Rome),,and one of the five kingdoms before Rome,,,,was not a nation any longer,,,did not have a king,,,no military,,,,,,no temple to sacrifice to their god,,,,,,,,no citizens,,,,their kingdom did not exist at this time(ad96),,,,,,and they were of the five kingdoms that ruled the known earth before ad96,,,,,,rev.17;11,,,,"and",,,and the beast that was and is not even he is the eight,and is of the seven,,,,,notice the "eight head",,,is one of the first five,,,,,,the one that did not exist when Rome was a kingdom ,,,,,,,,,it is the head that shall,,,,rev.17;8,,,,,,"ascend out of the bottomless pit",,,,,,,,,,,,,"count the number of the beast,,,,,,,,1 beast,2 beast,three beast,four beast,,five beast,,,,,,,,the sixth is Rome,,,,who is the eight????he was of the five,,,,,and did not exist when "one of the seven angels told you this",,,,,,,,,,,

Try doing some research on the dating of revelation. You'll find more substantial internal and external evidence for an early date, before 70AD then a late date, 96AD......:::::''''''!!!!!!""""<<<>>>>@@@

""""<<<<Evidences for an early date of Revelation>>>> !!!!!!""""

iamsoandso · Oct 24, 2012

yes the preterist theorist,,,some say ad 70,,,some before,,,,some after some ad 96(irenaeus),,,and it does make quite a difference in the outcome of to the meaning,,,if a man states one date,,one man comes,,and if the other,,,another man comes,,,but here is a better "clock",,,Revelations 1;19 and i suppose it to be fuel for both sides,,,that is Christ himself said when,and is much "overlooked",,,"hast seen",he tells john(you've already witnessed some of this),,,"things which are",,(were going on when the rev. was given),,,and "shall be hereafter",,,as i stated in my post,,"commentators" ,,,well they will seek to prove the thing they believe,,he (Christ himself) stated to john "three things",about the timing of this vision(at the beginning) he told him "the time frame of the vision",,,why listen to men who argue one date over another?,,,,,,,,,,"now i take a long breath,,lol",,,,,,i dont mean to offend anyone with my "strange writing skills",,,"commas,,ect.",,forgive me,i worked in genealogy for years,most of older documents are written in "cursive",,,they begin with one large fancy letter,,all the letters are joined,,only the words are separate, and at the end there is a slash of a pen,,,,,like "touchette"when i was young,,,(back in the cowboy days),,no man wrote "printed letters",,and as much as i find it easy to read cursive,i also find it difficult to type "printing",,i tell you,i admit it at times takes me hours to type my response(forgive me),,,i only type with two fingers,,,and i do at time sit back and take a long breath,,you are right(lol)and if you at all make merry of me i would rather it be my lack of writing skills,,,than "scriptural matters",,,,for as for today none is questioned the words i speak but only the "punctuation",,,but forgive my punctuation,i mean no offense,,,,,,and i take no offense at you pointing out i am not well at it,,,soandso

Bookends · Oct 24, 2012

iamsoandso said:

Forgive me brother, I do find it amusing and shame on me. And you are right about the commentators, but some these things should be explained using the WHOLE bible first and history needs to be examined first before we futurize the symbols. What a dis-service would it be, for John to the tell 1st Century Christians that they could know and recognize who this beast is by the number of the letter, if actually that number of the beast was a 21st century individual. But John told them in their day, that they can know who this beast is for their benefit. This my conviction and belief. All I ask is for you to examine the evidence we give and then use logic and common sense to make your conclusions.

Abiding · Oct 24, 2012

Logic and common sense? are you sure? Hmm

eternally-gratefull · Oct 25, 2012

marianna said:

Thats interesting. John made these prophesies many years after christ had already come and gone. And what does people coming in have to do with it. It says that they are gone after, one is protected, one suffers severe persecution. How can they all be the same group of people?

You did not read what I said or what John said. The beast goes after the woman, God protects her. It is not a remnent, it is all. And since God protects the woman, he goes and persecutes her offspring. which would be us.

The point is, the woman God protects can't be the church, The church did not give birth to Christ, and the woman God protects can't be the harlot, because God does not protect her, he helps destroy her,, So who is it, the woman, who GAVE BIRTH TO CHRIST that God protects?

There fate is the same as ANYONE who rejects christ, they will spend an eternity in hell. ALL ISRAEL is not all who ever lived and were descended from Abraham Issac and Jacob for the last 4000 years. It is ALL ISRAEL who are on earth living at the time of this prophesy. Why people try to twist it to make it look like we say they will all be saved is just a simple ploy to make us look bad.

Show you what? Something that is not going to happen because you misunderstand what we are saying? No I can't because non of us have ever stated what you questioned.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 25, 2012

marianna said:

Thats interesting. since many lived. Paul went from gentile nation to gentile nation and always found a bunch of those who were supposedly killed in their synogogs.

Here we go again, How do you expect me to give creedance to what you say? many christians were killed all throughout the NT time period. Yet not even that matters, God said he would PROTECT THE WOMAN> that means ALL OF THEM. and the WOMAN IS NOT THE CHURCH.

for salvation your 100 % right, but we are not talking about that are we?

Abiding · Oct 25, 2012

I'll ask you the same question I asked Katyfollower - If what you say is true, what is the fate of the millions of jews who died in their sin and unbelief (blindness/cut-off) - if they are all israel, and all israel will be saved, faithful or not, will they all be resurrected to eternal life? On what basis?

There fate is the same as ANYONE who rejects christ, they will spend an eternity in hell. ALL ISRAEL is not all who ever lived and were descended from Abraham Issac and Jacob for the last 4000 years. It is ALL ISRAEL who are on earth living at the time of this prophesy. Why people try to twist it to make it look like we say they will all be saved is just a simple ploy to make us look bad.

excerpt from post#134

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Not really wanting to make you (the us part isnt in view) look bad...just wonder what "you" mean.
What does all Israel will be saved mean? if i asked you before or youve said it already sorry.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 25, 2012

Bookends said:

there are many flaws in what this guys said.

1. No persecution of the church by Rome? I guess when Rome hung peter on a cross that was not persecution?
2. Paul wrote letters to Ephesians in the times this article states John wrote to the same churches. However. we see that a major downfall had occurred between the time Paul write to the Ephesians and what John said was current in the time of his writing, the same with the other churches. On of the churches in John's writing had been suffering severe persecution in their church. I think it would be obvious if Paul was around in this time he would have also wrote to them, and encouraged them as he did the other churches.

it is also obvious john just did not send this letter to these seven churches, as he said not only will they be blessed if they read and understand, but ALL who read and understand what is said to the seven churches. it was written not just for them, but to all of us, who here many years later read it.

Revelation is a great book we all need to hear.

1. it tells us who Christ is
2. it tells us who god is
3. it tells us why God has the reason and RIGHT to do what he is going to do.
4. It tells us what god will do to "defeat evil", "put and end to evil
5. It gives us confidence during tribulation that we can know we will be rewarded if we endure suffering, and that god is in control, and he will have voctory.
6. it warns that in the last days tribulation will get very severe, and for those who can endure it, they too will have reward, and do not have to know or think they are not alone.

Saying all this stuff happened in 70 AD is not very encouraging to those who will one day suffer these major events which according to John are worldwide in scope and nto limited to one small area on earth in the middle east.

iamsoandso · Oct 25, 2012

Bookends said:

yes exactly,,the difference between ad 70 and ad 96 makes a huge difference in the book of rev.,,,history in aspect to the books we have in the bible do give us a better understanding of the fulfillment to the prophecies.,,,,i am neither pre,nor post in the matter because of this,that is it would be better to say as i said before rev.1;19,,,if Christ said to john the vision show to him to write were things that were(present tense to john),,,and things he saw(past tense to john),,,and things that must shortly come to pass(future tense to john),,,this is why i say "commentators",,,we "all of us",me too,, should always remember to bear history into mind that is again he said to john(things you saw,rev.1;19)so hence he said to john (some of this is history to you),,,though i do agree with the other post were some show the scripture itself as the "ruler to measure it by",,,i began(when young) reading books written by Robert Fleming,,who did notice many things valuable and then later b.w.Johnson who quotes Flemming in his commentaries,but not to say i indorse either,,,i just took note that these and others began to realize other elements had come into play,,,,"discovery of the Americas",,,which now the commentators before 1492 did not have a clue about that is they before the discovery wrote based on history and scripture not understanding that the united states would become what it is today,or that (research this online),that 39% of all Jewish descendents would now live in the u.s. i say "research this" which is no easy task,,,,why well Jewish(the religion),,,,or is the statistic of (the Jewish race) my wife is a christian Jew and so my sons,,that is "Sephardic Jew",,that is the tribe of Judah(parts of) were carried into exile into what is now Spain by the Romans after the ad70 revolts (her was traced to Spain then to Judah)but were part of the Spanish Inquisition and others,1492,1497,,ect. and went from Spain to south America,Mexico and then to the u.s. across several generation's,,and did not have a clue they were Jewish by blood till recent(dna test,genealogy data) it is estimated 1 third of the population of Mexico descend from sephardic jew's,,,,there are a number of studies ongoing at present,,,,,search "Mexico's hidden jew's",,,not to mention the ashkenakic jew,,,this after mine own genealogy i found was the same my family was also from israel and sent to Amsterdam/palatinate or germany,,then to the u.s. in the 1740's,,,but none of us are according to census records as jews,,,nor religion as jews that is we believe in christ,,,,,,makes no difference till we look at the prophecies,,,you see most of the jews in the world live in the united states,,,what proficies concern us will take place here,,,where we live,,,,,,and we should bear this in mind when looking at the chapters in rev.,,,and other books in the bible,,,,and the commentators before 1492,,,,,did not know where we would live today(u.s.),,,,

nathan3 · Oct 26, 2012

City is more figurative. if its any its Jerualem where he sets up,. but the entire world partisipates. : / because that is what the subject is. dont hyper focus on one thing where you inglect the rest.

Bookends · Oct 26, 2012

nathan3 said:

Can you support your claim that the city is more figurative using the bible? Brother, just don't say it, back it up as well. God bless.

Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

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