The Fixed Earth

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Jan 8, 2009
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It is a Prophet of God speaking, it's not an base instruction manual on how to drive a car, Holy Scripture is not written so that a semi-literate fool can get a grasp of it..."the world is a ball", Isaiah is not preaching to a bunch of goons with 4th grade mentality, he is preaching to men who are intellectual giants compared to us, you think Isaiah is stupid, just some country hick with a screw loose! Can I just say the 'Snail, do you realise that Isaiah most probably does not want you to understand what he is saying, it is not intended for the profane, it is intended to spark the inspired. How do you expect it to read- like the back of box of cornflakes. If he said 'ball', you would probably say "Isaiah thinks that the earth is a rubber ball, what idiot, LOL", that is what a profane person would say.

So you now admit the symbolic or hidden nature of the scriptures (rather than their literal interpretaion) yet you would also claim that it is clear as day from the bible that the Earth is fixed and spherical. hmm. You can't have it both ways. Claim the bible is literal scientific fact on matteres which support your view, yet when I show you verses which when taken literally support a flat earth, you reject them preferring to argue some sort of hidden or inspired meaning. You claim the Earth is spherical based upon the bible yet I thought the idea for a spherical earth came from Greek philosophy. Something doesn't add up there.


"It is he that comprehends the circle of the earth"
"earth" = erets....

If I compare Koine Greek and Hebrew "circle" in Greek gyros, in Hebrew - huwg, when one studies these two words and compares them because as the Bible says Truth is established in the mouth of two witnesses, I get the English concept of 'to encompass'
That is what linguistic investigation will reveal, so now I know that something is being encompassed, what? the earth - erets, does not actually mean in this instance that

That is very insightful however the word "encompass" cannot differentiate between a circle in a flat earth, and a circle around the spherical earth which we call the equator. As far as I know at that time the readers would not have known about such an equator or southern hemisphere. But they would have understood a circular flat hemispherical dome concept in which they dwelt, and yet nothing dwelt below them.

Isaiah is speaking of the entire planet and all it contains, same with the Greek Septuagint, actually the Greek uses different words to describe the surface of the earth and the globe of the earth, so I find in Isaiah 40:22 that the Bible means the surface of the earth has been encompassed! There is no better way to destroy any flat earth theory than what Isaiah just testified, you cannot do it in so few well chosen words. But he also adds "he that comprehends"...do you comprehend this 'Snail?
Isaiah 40:22 also likens the heavens being stretched out like a tent, as a covering. This concept does not fit well with a spherical earth, in which case it would not be a tent, but a complete covering around the ball of the earth like a zip-lock bag.

If we are talking about witnesses to establish a doctrine, I have produced more scriptures from Genesis to Revelations which show a flat earth, than you can to show a spherical earth. Assume you did not have the benefit of Greek philosophers, I highly doubt you would come to a spherical earth conclusion. The flat-earthers (who by the way, also believe in a fixed earth), have one up on you there, at least they use the bible alone to establish their view of the universe.




Please stop mutilating Genesis, you cannot understand one sentence of Isaiah how can you possibly comprehend Genesis???

You dont know who Job is do you?

Job was obviously a flat-earther by his comparisons of the sky to a hardened mirror, and the earth as flattened (not ball-shaped) clay. The sky is not hard, and neither is the earth really flat. Job was wrong. Point proven.


Have you ever seen a tree grow up into heaven???
It's a DREAM! Do you just pretend to be stupid 'Snail?
Then it is obviously a dream of a flat earth. Or, if you are so smart, explain how a tall tree can be visible from all parts of the earth in a spherical earth? And are you trying to tell us that God who revealed the secrets of the future to Daniel would give Daniel a FALSE representation of the earth, being flat, not spherical?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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It makes perfect sense that Nebuchadnezzar would dream of a flat earth, because being Babylonian that was what they believed in.

It shouldn't be a shock to us that the bible teaches a flat earth.

Belief in a flat Earth is found in mankind's oldest writings. In early Mesopotamian thought, the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean, and this forms the premise for early Greek maps such as those of Anaximander and Hecataeus of Miletus. The same belief is found in the [[Old Testament[5] and in ancient Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ancient_Near_East

I did not mutilate Genesis.

Since the sky is usually thought by pre-scientific peoples to be a solid
hemisphere literally touching the earth (or sea) at the horizon, the earth
must necessarily be thought of as flat.
Westminster Theological Journal 59 (1997) 231-55

Recommend the following link:

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_EarthSeas_WTJ.htm

 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
So you now admit the symbolic or hidden nature of the scriptures (rather than their literal interpretaion) yet you would also claim that it is clear as day from the bible that the Earth is fixed and spherical. hmm. You can't have it both ways. Claim the bible is literal scientific fact on matteres which support your view, yet when I show you verses which when taken literally support a flat earth, you reject them preferring to argue some sort of hidden or inspired meaning. You claim the Earth is spherical based upon the bible yet I thought the idea for a spherical earth came from Greek philosophy. Something doesn't add up there.
Do hills skip? do rivers clap? There is a difference, is it hyperbole is metaphor is it Anthropomorphism maybe parable, is it poetical, well which one 'Snail?






Isaiah 40:22 also likens the heavens being stretched out like a tent, as a covering. This concept does not fit well with a spherical earth, in which case it would not be a tent, but a complete covering around the ball of the earth like a zip-lock bag.

Oh really, Paul was a tent maker, he had no problem in understanding the various shapes of tents, oh that's right there is only one according to 'Snail who obviously knows more than Isaiah or Paul.



Job was wrong. Point proven
.


Oh dear me, I set you up for that one and you fell into it 'Snail!

like I said you don't know who Job is...'Job was wrong' LOL!!! you really are stupid 'Snail, where do live 'Snail?




Then it is obviously a dream of a flat earth. Or, if you are so smart, explain how a tall tree can be visible from all parts of the earth in a spherical earth?
Are you kidding me, is this a joke? It's a dream, now please don't tell me any of your dreams, spare me please...
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Job was wrong. Point proven.

I am staring at these words in disbelief, I cannot even imagine how anybody of sound mind could possibly go against Job! I cannot imagine what sort of trouble you are going to be in for stating that and im I witness to it, 'Snail just said that and I quote 'Job was wrong'...Oh dear me, 'Snail, please repent, you don't mean that do you, tell God you don't mean that and repent.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Do hills skip? do rivers clap? There is a difference, is it hyperbole is metaphor is it Anthropomorphism maybe parable, is it poetical, well which one 'Snail?



Finally you are beginning to see what it means to interpret the bible symbolically. It's a shame you don't also apply your new found love of metaphors to the phrase "the earth shall not be moved".





I am staring at these words in disbelief, I cannot even imagine how anybody of sound mind could possibly go against Job! I cannot imagine what sort of trouble you are going to be in for stating that and im I witness to it, 'Snail just said that and I quote 'Job was wrong'...Oh dear me, 'Snail, please repent, you don't mean that do you, tell God you don't mean that and repent.
Staring at words in disbelief..well now you know how most people who read your posts must feel, when they read such nonsense about science being wrong and NASA being a conspiracy.

Oh, Job was not wrong? Well if Job was right, then perhaps you'd like to declare that the earth is squashed flat like impressed clay, with a solid "beaten out" sky.



Oh really, Paul was a tent maker, he had no problem in understanding the various shapes of tents, oh that's right there is only one according to 'Snail who obviously knows more than Isaiah or Paul.
So Paul made spherically shaped tents did he like a beach ball? LOL.




Don't bear false witness 'Snail...I never said it was Daniel's dream. You're a crafty little devil aren't you?
I wasn't referring to your post, but my own :).




And don't recommend anything to me, just tell God you are sorry for what you said about Job.
Actually I feel more sorry for you.


Are you kidding me, is this a joke? It's a dream, now please don't tell me any of your dreams, spare me please...
It's a dream given by God which contained a false view of the earth being flat. hmm. God is not a liar, so a flat earth must be true! Hope you repent of your spherical earth error before Judgement Day. As far as literal interpretation of scripture goes, those flat-earthers surely have one up on you.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
so a flat earth must be true! Hope you repent of your spherical earth error before Judgement Day.
So 'Snail, if you think that God teaches through Scripture a flat-earth, do you believe the earth is flat?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Are you making fun at St Paul now? You don't want to do that, no please stop, for your own sake, seriously I am worried about you..

No, I think you are the one suggesting that Paul made different shaped tents:

Oh really, Paul was a tent maker, he had no problem in understanding the various shapes of tents, oh that's right there is only one according to 'Snail who obviously knows more than Isaiah or Paul.

Obviously, if the bible says God stretched out the heavens like a tent , it does not mean it is wrapped all around a ball shaped earth. Therefore it is a flat earth.


So 'Snail, if you think that God teaches through Scripture a flat-earth, do you believe the earth is flat?

If I did live in old testament times, and didn't know the earth was round thanks to NASA et al ;), and that Scripture is not intended to establish such scientific facts, I probably would in all honesty believe in a flat earth based upon the consistency and uniformity of scripture in indicating a flat earth. Not to mention all my contemporaries believing in a flat-earth thanks to the insight of neighbouring Egypt, Bablyon, and others. I guess the issue for you would be, coming to terms with the fact that the bible is really a flat-earth book, yet your belief in the earth's sphericity coming from Greek philosophy. Therefore the only difference between spherical earth geocentrists such as yourself and flat-earthers, is that they interpret the bible more literally (and probably more accurately) than you do. Yet, their belief is based upon the false assumption that the bible can accurately establish such scientific facts about the earth, when the authors of scripture (such as Job) were simply drawing from the secular contempary knowledge available at the time.
 
A

Astronut

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I know it's a comet, I said meaning manned space shuttles, a comet is hardly man - made and piloted!

You said voyaged, I took that to mean you thought NASA had never sent anything "past the van allen belts."
Yes OK I see.

Now I would have to initially reject your SLR digital photography as being fake straight away. Unlike terrestrial digital photography where instant results are displayed "digital astrophotography often requires computer post-processing before the results can be viewed."

Digital images can be brightened & manipulated in a computer to adjust colour and increase the contrast.

Brightening an image does not make it fake, so you can retract your claim. In film processing it would be the same as "pushing" the processing by leaving it in the developer a little longer. Neither digital nor chemical brightening make an image "fake" as neither insert anything that wasn't already there, and for digital SLR photography shooting in RAW mode, it's merely an aesthetic choice as to what part of the 12 bit histogram to choose as the range for the 8 bit output image. Since all digital SLR images, including terrestrial, involve a process of translating 12 bit or more to 8 bits, all digital SLR images are fake in your logic.
More sophisticated techniques involve capturing multiple images to composite together in an additive process, as well as using image processing.

We would need to have a look at your photo in detail and find out what image processing you have done. The one you displayed earlier looks fake and it is labeled incorrectly and the distance is incorrect.

Labeled incorrectly? WTH are you talking about? For most deep space images I average multiple frames, which only serves to effectively increase the length of the exposure, as well as making it "more real" by cancelling out the fake pixels - camera noise, that is. If you want to see what unstacked galaxies look like, here's a video I had previously broadcast live showing a couple galaxies and a bunch of distant stars. A computer completely separate from the scope averaged frames as they came in from the camera, but the first frame of each object is just one unstacked, untouched picture:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1416617
In the case of your telescope, do you have 'deep sky imager'?
I used to have a DSI, or "Deep Sky Imager" until the USB port burned out.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
Brightening an image does not make it fake, so you can retract your claim.
The computerized image enhancing that you have done on the picture I saw from an earlier post, is sufficient to deem that your photo is a misrepresentation.



These images for example I still have a problem with accepting, can you tell me in detail what it is you are imaging, I would like you to give astronomical details of the photos, location in the night sky, name, distance, composition of subject matter, is it a forming star? or galaxy? what's is it made of, etc.

I used to have a DSI, or "Deep Sky Imager" until the USB port burned out.
I havn't had time to fully investigate this computer program, but my suspicion is that it is simulating images, that is giving a false representation of reality, in fact it is more of a virtual reality.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
No, I think you are the one suggesting that Paul made different shaped tents:



Obviously, if the bible says God stretched out the heavens like a tent , it does not mean it is wrapped all around a ball shaped earth. Therefore it is a flat earth.


The key word is actually 'stretched' the reference is not to tent shapes, it is the act of stretching out that is important especially in astrophysics, the exegesis of focus is the word 'stretched', here we find the crown of the statement. This is how to aviod the profane and attract intellect, this is what Scripture is seeking. Upon reading that line you instantly imagine a camping tent, and this is the intention, intellect however uses hermeneutics to derive deeper more complex meaning, thus I find that the truth of this statement is in the out-stretching of the heavens away from the earth, stars once fully formed being close to the earth must have been dragged back to their present position- 'streched' out in all directions with the earth as the centre. I believe that astrophysists are now coming into the understanding that this is the only way that starlight could appear the way it does, we are witnessing the tail lights of stars the opposite of what is commonly thought that star light is travelling through space to reach us, the reality is that starlight was once very close but has been dragged away from us, so we see the tail lights of stars, so to speak.



bible is really a flat-earth book, .

Ok so God got it wrong did he? You think that the earth is a sphere, yet you claim that God and his prophets ignorantly claim a flat earth, just out of shear ignorance, so you are claiming that, Noah, Job, Enoch, Moses and all the Prophets and God Himself are all unaware that the earth is a sphere, but that they merely copied local legends and myths and falsely state that the earth is flat, unlike you who in all your wisdom know much better, and to the contrary you state that the earth is a sphere so you call God a liar basically, even against all the evidence that I have given you that clearly recognizes that Scripture affirms a spherical Earth.

Basically you just don't really believe the Bible, you pretend to be a Christian sometimes when it suits you.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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The key word is actually 'stretched' the reference is not to tent shapes, it is the act of stretching out that is important especially in astrophysics, the exegesis of focus is the word 'stretched', here we find the crown of the statement. This is how to aviod the profane and attract intellect, this is what Scripture is seeking. Upon reading that line you instantly imagine a camping tent, and this is the intention, intellect however uses hermeneutics to derive deeper more complex meaning, thus I find that the truth of this statement is in the out-stretching of the heavens away from the earth, stars once fully formed being close to the earth must have been dragged back to their present position- 'streched' out in all directions with the earth as the centre. I believe that astrophysists are now coming into the understanding that this is the only way that starlight could appear the way it does, we are witnessing the tail lights of stars the opposite of what is commonly thought that star light is travelling through space to reach us, the reality is that starlight was once very close but has been dragged away from us, so we see the tail lights of stars, so to speak.





Ok so God got it wrong did he? You think that the earth is a sphere, yet you claim that God and his prophets ignorantly claim a flat earth, just out of shear ignorance, so you are claiming that, Noah, Job, Enoch, Moses and all the Prophets and God Himself are all unaware that the earth is a sphere, but that they merely copied local legends and myths and falsely state that the earth is flat, unlike you who in all your wisdom know much better, and to the contrary you state that the earth is a sphere so you call God a liar basically, even against all the evidence that I have given you that clearly recognizes that Scripture affirms a spherical Earth.

Basically you just don't really believe the Bible, you pretend to be a Christian sometimes when it suits you.
I think he was just trying to prove that the bible is no scientific reference. And also that you where using the bible when you found it convenient
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
I think he was just trying to prove that the bible is no scientific reference. And also that you where using the bible when you found it convenient
OK so you too are stating that the Bible falsely claims that the earth is flat, when in fact it is a sphere, and not only that but the Bible; the only book written by God Almighty Himself is scientifically inaccurate. I have clearly given scriptual evidence that the Bible supports a spherical Earth that is the centre of the universe, this is a Geocentric universe with the sun and moon and all the planets in orbit around a stationary earth. This is what the Bible states, because this is the truth, Heliocentricism is impossible and cannot be proven and never has.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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OK so you too are stating that the Bible falsely claims that the earth is flat, when in fact it is a sphere, and not only that but the Bible; the only book written by God Almighty Himself is scientifically inaccurate. I have clearly given scriptual evidence that the Bible supports a spherical Earth that is the centre of the universe, this is a Geocentric universe with the sun and moon and all the planets in orbit around a stationary earth. This is what the Bible states, because this is the truth, Heliocentricism is impossible and cannot be proven and never has.
And others have stated scriptural evidence that the earth is flat. Frankly, I never thought it was right about anything, but that's a topic for another day.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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People have also disproved geocentricism, but you turn down their evidence, occasionaly claiming them to be liars and people trying to impose this "false theory" of heliocentrecism for some unknown objective.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
And others have stated scriptural evidence that the earth is flat. Frankly, I never thought it was right about anything, but that's a topic for another day.
No that is incorrect, there is no scriptural evidence of a flat Earth.

If you are not a Christian and do not believe that scripture is right about anything, perhaps you would do better to find another forum, I wish to discuss the Bible, that is why I started this thread, so I can discuss the Bible with others who at least have some Biblical knowledge, you have none, neither are you interested in learning, so why do you persist on making snide remarks on this thread? I have no interest any anything you have to say as you have nothing constructive to add to this thread.
 
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