Paul did NOT die to the law!

[Eccl12and13]

Peter gives us a warning about the writings of Paul.....and for a very good reason. Paul's writings are HARD to understand.

Let's look at Romans Chapter 7:


Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Right from the start what does Paul ask us to consider? Are the laws of God bad? And what does he tell us? NO!!! He then goes on to say....if it were not for the laws of God he would not have known that it was wrong to covet.

Now readers....do you believe Paul stopped reading at this one law of do not covet? Of course not! Paul was a student of God's word. He knew ALL of God's laws. So NO....he did not stop at "Do not covet.". Let's continue with chap. 7;

[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Above Paul tells us that because of the knowledge of God's laws, this knowledge made him aware of all manner of lustful desires. For before Paul knew God's laws....sin was dead to him. He didn't know that what he was doing was wrong in the eyes of the Lord. Let's continue.....

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Above Paul tells us that we was alive without God's laws. Now what do you think he meant? He meant the same thing and felt the same way we all did before knowing that certain actions were wrong in the eyes of God. We thought we were alive and living it up. Doing what we wanted, when we wanted and not having to give account to anyone.

But what happened when Paul became aware of God's laws? What happened when the "...commandment came..."? Sin was made know to him. When he read that it was wrong to covet....that old Paul...the one that was living it up had to die. The LAW did NOT die. The old man....the man that was living it up had to die. Paul did NOT die to the law. God's laws made Paul aware that what he was doing was wrong and that old Paul is the one that died. Let's read more....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Readers....please take note to what Paul says above. Let's read it closely again;


"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."


Paul tells us that God's laws were ordained to LIFE. Now what life could Paul be speaking of? He was already alive! The life that the laws would give, if kept, was ETERNAL LIFE! That is what God's laws give to those that keep them. We have proof of this throughout the entire bible. Keeping God's laws could give not only eternal life....but doing as God commands could also give physical life. Consider the days of Noah. Consider the punishment of Sodom. Consider the nation of Israel.

And of course we know what Jesus tells us gives life eternal; Keeping God's commandments. Let's prove this with scripture;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keeping the laws and commandments of God allows entrance into His kingdom. Now let's continue to what else happened to Paul when God's commandments were made known to him;

"...I found to be unto death."

And what was it that died? Again.....Paul already told us. It was that old Paul that died. Once Paul became aware of God's laws and the knowledge of sin...that old Paul...the one, just like us, that was living it up had to die. Paul could not go on serving 2 masters. Either he had to serve God or serve sin. Paul chose to serve God and obey His laws. Let's continue....

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Again Paul tells us that God's laws are HOLY, JUST and GOOD! How could it be that such laws were nailed to Christ's cross? How could these laws that Paul says, were ordained to give life, no longer be needed or kept?

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul presents us with another question. He asks... Could that which was good, speaking of God's laws, cause him to die? Could keeping God's laws cause Paul to die? Again he tells us NO! But what was it that caused death in Paul? Knowing what sin was and that he could not continue therein caused him to die. Not only that...but now having the knowledge of God's laws made sin appear even MORE sinful.



Readers.....Paul did NOT die to the law. We are NOT dead to God's laws. The knowledge of God's laws brings about death to the old Paul....to the old US.


God's laws are ordained to life....life ETERNAL!



.

 

[feedm3]

I agree that we MUST keep God's commands. Although, I do not feel Paul is saying we should keep all of God's laws that he ever made. Romans is refuting that very issue with those keeping, or being told they had to keep Moses' laws, which include the 10 commands.

Rom 15:4 he makes it clear the things written before (the OT) are now for our learning, not that we are bound by them.

We are bound by NT laws, i know many here do not think we are under any laws at all, but grace only, yet grace has it's laws - Tit 2:11

We are under the NT law, the perfect law of liberty. Not that we have been liberated from all law, then that could not be a law, that would be a paradox.

Man is liberated from the ordinances, offerings, etc, under the law of Moses', because they they were only a shadow of what was to come. Now we have the "very" or true image, we no longer need the shadow.

Part of the NT laws, was to repent from the Law of Moses, when Christ came. Now it is a sin to try and keep those laws, because they deny through type, shadow, and prophecy, that Christ has NOT come.

They pointed to his coming, if they are kept, then it is saying he still has not come. This is why it is a sin to try and keep any part of the law, as Paul told the Gal Christians, by doing so they would "fall from grace" and Christ "would become of no effect".

 

[Eccl12and13]

This is why it is a sin to try and keep any part of the law, as Paul told the Gal Christians, by doing so they would "fall from grace" and Christ "would become of no effect".

But one must understand WHICH law it is that Paul tells them not to go back to trying to keep. Let's read...

Gal.3
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Let's consider....what was it that could NOT make anyone perfect that involved flesh? What law required "works" and "deeds".

The ONLY law that required a work to be performed AND involved flesh was the laws of the Levites and their job of killing bulls and goats (flesh) for the forgiveness of sin.

Let's read how Paul explains this further in the chapter...

[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God added the Laws of the Levites because man continued to break His other, already existing laws. Hence.....a law was added because of transgressions, or sin. And this law was only to be around till the seed would come, which was Christ. Let's continue...

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Could the killing of bulls and goats give life? No. Let's prove this...

Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The law of killing bulls and goats could never make those that offered their sacrifice perfect. And this is what Paul was speaking about in Gal.3. Now that Christ has shed His blood...going back to offering animal sacrifices would not replace hearing, having faith in and obeying God's word.

That was the law Paul speaks of in Gal.3. The law of works that involved flesh that could not make those that offered sacrifices perfect.


.

 

[Abiding]

Nope the Law meant all the law

 

[Abiding]

Your not understanding the difference between trying to be justified by the Law
and Spiritually walking in obedience to Jesus commands through faith

 

[loveme1]

Your not understanding the difference between trying to be justified by the Law
and Spiritually walking in obedience to Jesus commands through faith

Abiding, really like how that sounds, but i must ask what do you believe Yahshua the Messiah commands of us?

Obedience to the 10 Commandments of Yahvah God?

 

[Abiding]

Of coarse the Law is still the Law and even more to a new Testament believer who obeys
it internally rather than just externally.

And yes we dont do things that were a type and shadow. But trying to say Paul os just
talking about sacrificial laws etc is inccorrect and missing the whole point

 

[Abiding]

Abiding, really like how that sounds, but i must ask what do you believe Yahshua the Messiah commands of us?

Obedience to the 10 Commandments of Yahvah God?

Yes that and more. He gave us commands, and even explained their depth
in living color.

 

[Abiding]

I wouldnt agree that Paul in Romans or Galations is
putting the law aside. But is explaining the way they are
kept and what is the motivation and reason.

 

[loveme1]

Yes that and more. He gave us commands, and even explained their depth
in living color.

Indeed.

We know even what we think is counted against us, because being of the Spirit means just that.

If our Spirit considers evil then we have Trespassed.... we do not have to act things out in flesh for our Spirit is dirty before our hands even touch the mud....

 

[Abiding]

Loveme1 I never really counted the commands Jesus gave in the Gospels, and those He revealed to His
Apostles....but its a few more than ten... And does include the ten.

 

[loveme1]

Loveme1 I never really counted the commands Jesus gave in the Gospels, and those He revealed to His
Apostles....but its a few more than ten... And does include the ten.

I believe Love elaborates the 10 but our Creator being the wise one can equate it all with 10 Commandments.

Through Yahshua the Messiah Yahvah God gives us the source LOVE.

 

[Abiding]

Yes there is so much more than just the outward obedience to comands, moral and religious.
Our conscience, our motives are involved. Even not doing what is good is sin ever tho not imoral/
This cant be done just following laws in the flesh....unless you want just a whitewash.

 

[loveme1]

Yes there is so much more than just the outward obedience to comands, moral and religious.
Our conscience, our motives are involved. Even not doing what is good is sin ever tho not imoral/
This cant be done just following laws in the flesh....unless you want just a whitewash.

Certainly so.

 

[Abiding]

I believe Love elaborates the 10 but our Creator being the wise one can equate it all with 10 Commandments.

Through Yahshua the Messiah Yahvah God gives us the source LOVE.

Yes i think it is all contained in the 10 commandments.
Although i needed Jesus to show me what they entailed
and what heart to have and who i was doing them for and why.

 

[Abiding]

[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



these verses are key. Paul wasnt saying we dont obey
But his emphasis is how? what is the means? the flesh? or the Spirit?
To justify us? Or an outworking of our faith and Love to the Lord which
is byway of His grace/power?

 

[Abiding]

opps looks like i have the chats

 

[feedm3]

But one must understand WHICH law it is that Paul tells them not to go back to trying to keep. Let's read...

Gal.3
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Let's consider....what was it that could NOT make anyone perfect that involved flesh? What law required "works" and "deeds".

The ONLY law that required a work to be performed AND involved flesh was the laws of the Levites and their job of killing bulls and goats (flesh) for the forgiveness of sin.

Let's read how Paul explains this further in the chapter...

[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God added the Laws of the Levites because man continued to break His other, already existing laws. Hence.....a law was added because of transgressions, or sin. And this law was only to be around till the seed would come, which was Christ. Let's continue...

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Could the killing of bulls and goats give life? No. Let's prove this...

Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The law of killing bulls and goats could never make those that offered their sacrifice perfect. And this is what Paul was speaking about in Gal.3. Now that Christ has shed His blood...going back to offering animal sacrifices would not replace hearing, having faith in and obeying God's word.

That was the law Paul speaks of in Gal.3. The law of works that involved flesh that could not make those that offered sacrifices perfect.


.

So then what Law would be the one we are to keep? What exactly are you saying? The "levtie law" pertained to priesthood, the sacrificial, offering, etc, were laws, as well as the levitical laws. Before this, there was the Patriarchal law, it was replaced by the Mosaic. What other laws are there besides the NT?

 

[loveme1]

Exodus 40

And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:

21 And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and set up the vail of the covering, and covered the ark of the testimony; as the Lord commanded Moses.

22 And he put the table in the tent of the congregation, upon the side of the tabernacle northward, without the vail.

23 And he set the bread in order upon it before the Lord; as the Lord had commanded Moses.

24 And he put the candlestick in the tent of the congregation, over against the table, on the side of the tabernacle southward.

25 And he lighted the lamps before the Lord; as the Lord commanded Moses.

26 And he put the golden altar in the tent of the congregation before the vail:

27 And he burnt sweet incense thereon; as the Lord commanded Moses.

28 And he set up the hanging at the door of the tabernacle.

29 And he put the altar of burnt offering by the door of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation, and offered upon it the burnt offering and the meat offering; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 9

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Of course it is better for you to read it all...

What took place outwardly was to bring the inwardly.

John 4

the woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Matthew 22

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

.

Matthew 5

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Revelation 14

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[haz]

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Readers....please take note to what Paul says above. Let's read it closely again;

"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

Paul tells us that God's laws were ordained to LIFE. Now what life could Paul be speaking of? He was already alive! The life that the laws would give, if kept, was ETERNAL LIFE! That is what God's laws give to those that keep them. We have proof of this throughout the entire bible. Keeping God's laws could give not only eternal life....but doing as God commands could also give physical life. Consider the days of Noah. Consider the punishment of Sodom. Consider the nation of Israel.

And of course we know what Jesus tells us gives life eternal; Keeping God's commandments. Let's prove this with scripture;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keeping the laws and commandments of God allows entrance into His kingdom.
.

But you yourself admit you don't keep the commandments (you sin/transgress the law). Where does that leave you under your doctrine?

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Again Paul tells us that God's laws are HOLY, JUST and GOOD! How could it be that such laws were nailed to Christ's cross? How could these laws that Paul says, were ordained to give life, no longer be needed or kept?

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul presents us with another question. He asks... Could that which was good, speaking of God's laws, cause him to die? Could keeping God's laws cause Paul to die? Again he tells us NO! But what was it that caused death in Paul? Knowing what sin was and that he could not continue therein caused him to die. Not only that...but now having the knowledge of God's laws made sin appear even MORE sinful.

Readers.....Paul did NOT die to the law. We are NOT dead to God's laws. The knowledge of God's laws brings about death to the old Paul....to the old US.

God's laws are ordained to life....life ETERNAL!

But note Rom 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

This shows that we could not attain eternal life through the law.
Why?
Gal 2:16
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The law required perfect obedience. James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Confirmed by
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

So how can we be saved when we can't attain eternal life through the law by ourselves?
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.