To Covet or To Lust

[Red33]

This is a subject that many of us just don't want to talk about. I don't mean that we come out and start confessing what we covet and lust problems we are having, but rather to acknowledge what it means to covet something or someone and how we recognize these areas through conviction. Do our pulpits deal with this in a way the does not condemn but reveals the truth, convicts the heart and then provides the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting? We learn how to covet or lust for things at a very early age and it becomes a stronghold with so many of us later in life that it just seems natural for us and for others.

We have recognized this problem and have asked people to pray for us and nothing has happened and we are still in bondage to these areas. Why is that and does it take more than prayer to be free from covetousness? I say it does take more than prayer, though we continue to pray, but we must recognize two things, the CROSS and the WORD. The CROSS through death deals with the lust patterns we have given place to and the WORD keeps us renewed and humble so that we can receive grace and go on in our walk of faith. If we give place in an isolated instance or even as a practice because of the weakness of our flesh, we still have to deal with it through the cross and the word. We may have several years of freedom and then one day it comes back and we give place to it again and we sit back an say what is going on.

Coveting something or someone can take on many different forms and when these are spoken of, people get defensive and indifferent and don't want to have the cross and the light of God's word make these things become evident by bringing them to the forefront. God always has a way of bringing this subject up when believers become content in their life and stagnate as believers and when God does this it is not legalism because the purpose is to liberate and set free. The children of Israel had a problem with lusting and coveting in the wilderness that God was not well pleased with and many of them died as a result. Paul warns the church of this in (1Cor 10:1-11)...

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown (laid low when God sent leaness into their soul that it waste away) in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Is it possible that believers who we know and are acquainted with today, who are sick and wasting away, are in that condition because of covetousness, lusting after things or of various forms of idolatry? Are we going to judge righteously according to discernment we have through the cross and the word or are we going to just pray for these who are being overcome by sickness and disease and wish them the best when God could have very well sent leaness into their souls? Where do we draw the line and exercise ourselves in the discernment of good and evil and render this discernment to God as a righteous judgment? Is this being cruel to those we may love or are we walking in the light of truth so that our love is according to the discernment of that truth and not according to what they want us to pray for or what we would like to see God do for them?

 

[Red33]

What makes us think that we get a pass for not being discerning just because we pray for them? It is very possible that we could be praying for them outside the will of God. Perhaps someone would like to explain the following...

1Jn 5:14-16
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

[Skinski7]

the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting? We learn how to covet or lust for things at a very early age and it becomes a stronghold with so many of us later in life that it just seems natural for us and for others.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Red33]

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Do you covet or lust for anything? There are several lust patters of the soul that God has to deliver the believer from in his walk of faith. Everything does not happen all at once in our experience when we are regenerated and born again. Positionally God has perfected us but experientially we are far from that, so we need to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ and learn to pull down strongholds in our life by casting down those imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. This is all part of that good fight of faith that we are to fight. There are probably areas of idolatry in your life you know nothing about, yet God will deal with those in time. We are free when God makes us free and that will come as we grow and continue to walk by faith. We don't make excuses for sin or when we lust after and covet other things, we take them to the cross and let them be crucified in our experience so that we are no longer under the dominion of those things. Peter needed to be converted before Christ could use him to feed the brethren.

2Tim 2:19-22
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[damombomb]

What an interesting post. i was talking to my Mom yesterday about the same thing. Her Dad was an alcoholic and he mentally and physically abused her
as a child. She is almost bed fast due to scoliosis i try to talk to her to not go by emotions, but faith. She just cries more.i tell her man is not our strong arm,
but the Lord. My step dad who raised us passed away and was always a strong person, since he passed, she went to bed. Nevertheless,it seems what
she went through has manifest in her body and emotions, what do you do?

 

[Stephen63]

This is a subject that many of us just don't want to talk about. I don't mean that we come out and start confessing what we covet and lust problems we are having, but rather to acknowledge what it means to covet something or someone and how we recognize these areas through conviction. Do our pulpits deal with this in a way the does not condemn but reveals the truth, convicts the heart and then provides the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting? We learn how to covet or lust for things at a very early age and it becomes a stronghold with so many of us later in life that it just seems natural for us and for others.

We have recognized this problem and have asked people to pray for us and nothing has happened and we are still in bondage to these areas. Why is that and does it take more than prayer to be free from covetousness? I say it does take more than prayer, though we continue to pray, but we must recognize two things, the CROSS and the WORD. The CROSS through death deals with the lust patterns we have given place to and the WORD keeps us renewed and humble so that we can receive grace and go on in our walk of faith. If we give place in an isolated instance or even as a practice because of the weakness of our flesh, we still have to deal with it through the cross and the word. We may have several years of freedom and then one day it comes back and we give place to it again and we sit back an say what is going on.

Coveting something or someone can take on many different forms and when these are spoken of, people get defensive and indifferent and don't want to have the cross and the light of God's word make these things become evident by bringing them to the forefront. God always has a way of bringing this subject up when believers become content in their life and stagnate as believers and when God does this it is not legalism because the purpose is to liberate and set free. The children of Israel had a problem with lusting and coveting in the wilderness that God was not well pleased with and many of them died as a result. Paul warns the church of this in (1Cor 10:1-11)...

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown (laid low when God sent leaness into their soul that it waste away) in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Is it possible that believers who we know and are acquainted with today, who are sick and wasting away, are in that condition because of covetousness, lusting after things or of various forms of idolatry? Are we going to judge righteously according to discernment we have through the cross and the word or are we going to just pray for these who are being overcome by sickness and disease and wish them the best when God could have very well sent leaness into their souls? Where do we draw the line and exercise ourselves in the discernment of good and evil and render this discernment to God as a righteous judgment? Is this being cruel to those we may love or are we walking in the light of truth so that our love is according to the discernment of that truth and not according to what they want us to pray for or what we would like to see God do for them?

Do our pulpits deal with this in a way the does not condemn but reveals the truth, convicts the heart and then provides the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting?
I don't believe some of them do either. However, it's not just the guy behind the pulpit who's responsible for this. Every Christian should.

Coveting something or someone can take on many different forms and when these are spoken of, people get defensive and indifferent and don't want to have the cross and the light of God's word make these things become evident by bringing them to the forefront.

Some of the different forms could be:
1. To be the one who's right.
2. To be the one who has the last word.
3. To be the top master (teacher).
4. To be the most respected in the Bible Discussion Forums.
5. To be heard.
6. To be accepted.
7. To be noticed.
8. To glory in their ability.
9. To be a hero.
10. To be important.

And the list goes on and on...... all of this is covetousness, and all covetousness is idolatry. It can also involve the sin of pride, which with it brings destruction. Destruction of a ministry(forum), destruction of reputation, and destruction of honor.

As Christians, we are to go to them in love trying to get them to see the light. If they flatly refuse, we are dust off our feet as a testimony against them. Perhaps this is why many people won't even bother with the Bible Discussion Forum. Maybe they have already dusted off their feet.

 

[Red33]

Do our pulpits deal with this in a way the does not condemn but reveals the truth, convicts the heart and then provides the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting?
I don't believe some of them do either. However, it's not just the guy behind the pulpit who's responsible for this. Every Christian should.

Coveting something or someone can take on many different forms and when these are spoken of, people get defensive and indifferent and don't want to have the cross and the light of God's word make these things become evident by bringing them to the forefront.

Some of the different forms could be:
1. To be the one who's right.
2. To be the one who has the last word.
3. To be the top master (teacher).
4. To be the most respected in the Bible Discussion Forums.
5. To be heard.
6. To be accepted.
7. To be noticed.
8. To glory in their ability.
9. To be a hero.
10. To be important.

And the list goes on and on...... all of this is covetousness, and all covetousness is idolatry. It can also involve the sin of pride, which with it brings destruction. Destruction of a ministry(forum), destruction of reputation, and destruction of honor.

As Christians, we are to go to them in love trying to get them to see the light. If they flatly refuse, we are dust off our feet as a testimony against them. Perhaps this is why many people won't even bother with the Bible Discussion Forum. Maybe they have already dusted off their feet.

The man behind the pulpit is the one that God has raised up and it is his duty as a preacher and teacher to deal with this issue of coveting in his the local assembly God has given him to oversee.

Those (10) points you mention above, why don't explain them a little further and if need be, you can use me as an example if I fit that description. Do you really think that many do not post or participate in the Bible Discussion Forums because they have dusted off their feet? You seem to have no problem posting in these forums, perhaps others do not post because they are afraid or they are weary in their own flesh or they have the same problem you have described and have shut down or just decided to quit posting and go on to something more social.

People who covet can be very defensive of their rights to be heard and also be very condemning of those that may been taught by a pastor-teacher and have lots of doctrine in their soul. The entrance of God's word gives light and when we walk in the light we receive more light and specific categorical doctrine to build up our soul with light and life through and in Christ. We are to walk as children of light because we are children of the day and not of the night. God gives us light to stir us up out of our darkness and sluggishness and to open our eyes that have been blinded. This is not something we should react to and be critical but we should humble ourselves and receive the light that is given. Many argue against the light and all that does is reveal a heart of contention and unbelief. Do you have that kind of heart or is your heart after the light and the things of God?

 

[Skinski7]

Do you covet or lust for anything? There are several lust patters of the soul that God has to deliver the believer from in his walk of faith. Everything does not happen all at once in our experience when we are regenerated and born again. Positionally God has perfected us but experientially we are far from that, so we need to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ and learn to pull down strongholds in our life by casting down those imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. This is all part of that good fight of faith that we are to fight. There are probably areas of idolatry in your life you know nothing about, yet God will deal with those in time. We are free when God makes us free and that will come as we grow and continue to walk by faith. We don't make excuses for sin or when we lust after and covet other things, we take them to the cross and let them be crucified in our experience so that we are no longer under the dominion of those things. Peter needed to be converted before Christ could use him to feed the brethren.

2Tim 2:19-22
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2Tim 2:19-22 is not teaching that there are those who are justified and yet have not fled youthful lusts, do not follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace and do not have pure hearts. On the contrary it is a call to people to do these things because the unrighteous and impure will not enter the kingdom.

A Christian has CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires. That means that those lusts are DEAD. They have ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust. Yet you imply that such a thing is not possible and therefore one is justified whilst STILL ON BONDAGE to lust.

The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe. The Bible teaches that ALL THINGS BECOME NEW, not "some things."

A true Christian is no longer walking their own way. They have forsaken their own way and now they walk in accordance with the will of God to the best of their understanding.

Sure they have to grow in grace and knowledge but they don't "lust less" or "covet less." To teach such a thing is to teach grace as a cloak for ongoing rebellion.

You are teaching that a good tree produces good AND bad fruit. You cannot deny that. You clearly teach that the sin never stops but God has you covered. Thus God has covered the ongoing BAD FRUIT of the justified Christian in your theology.

Jesus did not teach that. Jesus taught this...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Is the eye of a professing Christian who is still in bondage to lust and covetousness single? Are they full of light? No way. It is impossible. Your teaching a mixed state of being defiled and not being defiled. Your teach a mixed state of "being set free" but "remaining locked in prison."

A Christian may sin in the context of doing wrong when they do not know it is wrong. Perhaps they are too quick to conclude a matter, perhaps they hesitate over something, or perhaps they have a priority wrong and neglect something. It could be many things. Yet these "faults" or "sins" are not rooted in "iniquity" which flows from a heart which is set upon "serving self and the lusts thereof." That is the difference.

A Christian obeys from the heart. It is all about the heart. It is a heart issue.

Faith purifies the heart. Faith works by love. Faith upholds the righteousness of the law in the heart and by faith one manifests the fruit of righteousness. Faith accesses the grace of God and it is by faith that the grace/provision of God is put into working effect in one's life.

Thus a true child of God is manifest to the world by their conduct. If their conduct is still wicked then they need to forsake all wrongdoing by crucifying their flesh and then yield to God by walking after the Spirit. You cannot do both.

 

[Red33]

2Tim 2:19-22 is not teaching that there are those who are justified and yet have not fled youthful lusts, do not follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace and do not have pure hearts. On the contrary it is a call to people to do these things because the unrighteous and impure will not enter the kingdom.

A Christian has CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires. That means that those lusts are DEAD. They have ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust. Yet you imply that such a thing is not possible and therefore one is justified whilst STILL ON BONDAGE to lust.

The Bible clearly teaches the opposite of what you believe. The Bible teaches that ALL THINGS BECOME NEW, not "some things."

A true Christian is no longer walking their own way. They have forsaken their own way and now they walk in accordance with the will of God to the best of their understanding.

Sure they have to grow in grace and knowledge but they don't "lust less" or "covet less." To teach such a thing is to teach grace as a cloak for ongoing rebellion.


You are teaching that a good tree produces good AND bad fruit. You cannot deny that. You clearly teach that the sin never stops but God has you covered. Thus God has covered the ongoing BAD FRUIT of the justified Christian in your theology.

Jesus did not teach that. Jesus taught this...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Is the eye of a professing Christian who is still in bondage to lust and covetousness single? Are they full of light? No way. It is impossible. Your teaching a mixed state of being defiled and not being defiled. Your teach a mixed state of "being set free" but "remaining locked in prison."

A Christian may sin in the context of doing wrong when they do not know it is wrong. Perhaps they are too quick to conclude a matter, perhaps they hesitate over something, or perhaps they have a priority wrong and neglect something. It could be many things. Yet these "faults" or "sins" are not rooted in "iniquity" which flows from a heart which is set upon "serving self and the lusts thereof." That is the difference.

A Christian obeys from the heart. It is all about the heart. It is a heart issue.

Faith purifies the heart. Faith works by love. Faith upholds the righteousness of the law in the heart and by faith one manifests the fruit of righteousness. Faith accesses the grace of God and it is by faith that the grace/provision of God is put into working effect in one's life.

Thus a true child of God is manifest to the world by their conduct. If their conduct is still wicked then they need to forsake all wrongdoing by crucifying their flesh and then yield to God by walking after the Spirit. You cannot do both.

You need to answer this in the light of what you have stated in your post. Why is there going to be believers who appear before the judgment seat of Christ and will be judged for the works done in their body who will suffer the loss of all rewards and will be saved as by fire? What are the works that are bad and those that are burned up as wood, hay and stubble that are done in the body of the believer? Could any of these be 'bad' works of the flesh?

2Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Cor 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[Skinski7]

You need to answer this in the light of what you have stated in your post. Why is there going to be believers who appear before the judgment seat of Christ and will be judged for the works done in their body who will suffer the loss of all rewards and will be saved as by fire? What are the works that are bad and those that are burned up as wood, hay and stubble that are done in the body of the believer? Could any of these be 'bad' works of the flesh?

2Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Cor 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ok, so you are clearly implying that 1Cor 3:11-17 is teaching that there will be Christian's who were still living according to the lusts of their flesh and yet they will, nonetheless, enter the kingdom only to lose rewards. That is a pretty common teaching.

Let's use some common sense here.

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul clearly states...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Clearly Paul is warning his readers to not be deceived into believing that the unrighteous will enter the kingdom of God. Paul then clearly lists certain kinds of behaviour which he deems as unrighteous.

Does 1 Cor 3:11-17 cancel out this warning? Clearly you think it must. Perhaps you believe that because you have the "cloak of the righteousness of Jesus" that this verse does not apply to those who are "in Christ." If that is the case why the warning not to be deceived? The warning would be a moot point wouldn't it?

Let's look at some even stronger language used by Paul. In Ephesians he says this...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

In verse 1 he urges people to be followers of God (in the context of turning from sin and yielding to God Eph chapter 4).
In verse 2 is he urges people to "walk in love"
In verse 3 he clearly states that "fornication, uncleanness and covetousness" NOT ONCE be named among them if they be saints.
In verse 4 he adds to his list, "filthiness, foolish talking, inconvenient joking."
In verse 5 he states matter of factly that no whoremonger, not unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, has any inheritance in the kingdom.
He then warns his readers about being DECEIVED on this point and clearly says that the wrath of God comes upon the disobedient because of these things, and because of this do not be one of them.

So does 1 Cor3:11-17 cancel out Eph 5:1-7. You would have to believe that it does.

Let's look at 1 Corinthians 3 and read it for what it says.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

So Paul has observed that some in the Corinthian church are disputing with each other over which teacher is greater. Certain people have identified themselves with particular teachers and it is causing division, strife and envy among the people.

Paul then admonishes them about this behaviour and says it is carnal or fleshly conduct. This conduct is not the spiritual way to go about things. Paul then explains that each teacher has their part, one plants and another waters and that those who do this RECEIVE REWARD for their labour.

He then speaks of how he and his fellows are "working together" with God and likens this work to construction. Back in verse 7 he clearly established that it is God that gives the increase and in verse 11 he speaks of the foundation being Jesus Christ.

Paul talks about how men build on this foundation (v.12) and that the test of fire will reveal whether the work stands or is burned up. Is Paul talking about living according to the flesh here? NO! Paul is talking about "building the church" and as to whether the "church builders" work will be productive or not. The disputing in this church were about whose "church building work" was best. That is the context.

How on earth can someone INJECT "walking in the flesh" into this passage so as to nullify the warnings given in the rest of scripture? It appears very dishonest and desperate to me. Is someone who does this deceiving themselves? I think they most certainly are because THEY WANT the scripture to PROVE that they CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE.

Yet Paul writes things like this...

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

That passage above could not be clearer. Eternal life is to those who sow to the Spirit NOT THE FLESH.

Or this passage...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Those who patiently continue in doing good receive eternal life while the disobedient get wrath.

Does taking 1Cor3 and injecting unrighteousness into "wood, hay and stubble" by CONJECTURE really cancel out all these other scriptures? To inject such a thing into the passage does not even make sense when the whole passage is read in context. Anyone doing such a thing reveals they have not really read the passage (just proof texted it) and that their mind is dark.

Don't kid yourself. Paul warned you not to be deceived.

 

[Red33]

Ok, so you are clearly implying that 1Cor 3:11-17 is teaching that there will be Christian's who were still living according to the lusts of their flesh and yet they will, nonetheless, enter the kingdom only to lose rewards. That is a pretty common teaching.

Let's use some common sense here.

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul clearly states...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Clearly Paul is warning his readers to not be deceived into believing that the unrighteous will enter the kingdom of God. Paul then clearly lists certain kinds of behaviour which he deems as unrighteous.

Does 1 Cor 3:11-17 cancel out this warning? Clearly you think it must. Perhaps you believe that because you have the "cloak of the righteousness of Jesus" that this verse does not apply to those who are "in Christ." If that is the case why the warning not to be deceived? The warning would be a moot point wouldn't it?

Let's look at some even stronger language used by Paul. In Ephesians he says this...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

In verse 1 he urges people to be followers of God (in the context of turning from sin and yielding to God Eph chapter 4).
In verse 2 is he urges people to "walk in love"
In verse 3 he clearly states that "fornication, uncleanness and covetousness" NOT ONCE be named among them if they be saints.
In verse 4 he adds to his list, "filthiness, foolish talking, inconvenient joking."
In verse 5 he states matter of factly that no whoremonger, not unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, has any inheritance in the kingdom.
He then warns his readers about being DECEIVED on this point and clearly says that the wrath of God comes upon the disobedient because of these things, and because of this do not be one of them.

So does 1 Cor3:11-17 cancel out Eph 5:1-7. You would have to believe that it does.

Let's look at 1 Corinthians 3 and read it for what it says.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

So Paul has observed that some in the Corinthian church are disputing with each other over which teacher is greater. Certain people have identified themselves with particular teachers and it is causing division, strife and envy among the people.

Paul then admonishes them about this behaviour and says it is carnal or fleshly conduct. This conduct is not the spiritual way to go about things. Paul then explains that each teacher has their part, one plants and another waters and that those who do this RECEIVE REWARD for their labour.

He then speaks of how he and his fellows are "working together" with God and likens this work to construction. Back in verse 7 he clearly established that it is God that gives the increase and in verse 11 he speaks of the foundation being Jesus Christ.

Paul talks about how men build on this foundation (v.12) and that the test of fire will reveal whether the work stands or is burned up. Is Paul talking about living according to the flesh here? NO! Paul is talking about "building the church" and as to whether the "church builders" work will be productive or not. The disputing in this church were about whose "church building work" was best. That is the context.

How on earth can someone INJECT "walking in the flesh" into this passage so as to nullify the warnings given in the rest of scripture? It appears very dishonest and desperate to me. Is someone who does this deceiving themselves? I think they most certainly are because THEY WANT the scripture to PROVE that they CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE.

Yet Paul writes things like this...

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

That passage above could not be clearer. Eternal life is to those who sow to the Spirit NOT THE FLESH.

Or this passage...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Those who patiently continue in doing good receive eternal life while the disobedient get wrath.

Does taking 1Cor3 and injecting unrighteousness into "wood, hay and stubble" by CONJECTURE really cancel out all these other scriptures? To inject such a thing into the passage does not even make sense when the whole passage is read in context. Anyone doing such a thing reveals they have not really read the passage (just proof texted it) and that their mind is dark.

Don't kid yourself. Paul warned you not to be deceived.

Then you explain what the works of wood, hay and stubble are referring to and the works done in the body which are 'bad' as opposed to those that are 'good'? Just what are those bad works and those that are burned us with fire? Don't ramble and remember these are works done IN THE BODY that are rewarded of suffer loss. Come on and tell us, if you can, but if not then you have nothing to stand on. Zone and others should back me on this but they won't because they are being carnal and petty.

 

[Skinski7]

Wood, hay and stubble is unproductive church building.

You must not have seriously read my post if you didn't see that in it.

Your clinging to CONJECTURE in the face of plain statements of Scripture. You might as well get a big black marker and cross out much of the Bible because you obviously don't believe it.

The bottom line, when all the fluff and rhetoric, is removed is that you believe that you CAN SIN and note surely die.

 

[Red33]

Wood, hay and stubble is unproductive church building.

You must not have seriously read my post if you didn't see that in it.

Your clinging to CONJECTURE in the face of plain statements of Scripture. You might as well get a big black marker and cross out much of the Bible because you obviously don't believe it.

The bottom line, when all the fluff and rhetoric, is removed is that you believe that you CAN SIN and note surely die.

This is a terrible understanding because it has nothing to do with any works done in the body of the individual believer. You have no idea what Paul is speaking to concerning the works done in the body. You need to be taught by a pastor-teacher so that you can have the right understanding about these things. You are way too out there for me.

 

[starfield]

You need to answer this in the light of what you have stated in your post. Why is there going to be believers who appear before the judgment seat of Christ and will be judged for the works done in their body who will suffer the loss of all rewards and will be saved as by fire? What are the works that are bad and those that are burned up as wood, hay and stubble that are done in the body of the believer? Could any of these be 'bad' works of the flesh?

2Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Cor 3:11-17
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The Judgment Seat of Christ for believers is not based on works of the flesh, as believers ought not to walk after the flesh fulfilling its lust thereof (Gal 5:16), rather it will be in regards to issues concerning soul-winning (Matt 28:19-20) and fruitfulness in evangelism. Some will receive eternal rewards for winning souls for the Kingdom, using their talents to serve God, leadership and discipleship (1 Cor 3:8-9, 1 Pet 5:2-4), etc., (note, those works do not merit salvation). God will judge our works based on our motives behind them, are they done to receive praises from men or to please God? (Matt 6:1, Col 3:23-24, 2 Tim 2:5). If they are done out of a right motive He will acknowledge them and reward and if not, those works will be deemed worthless but the individual will be saved.

1 Cor 3 should not be interpreted in reference to carnal Christianity as the scripture states that the carnal mind is enmity with God, therefore carnal, barren, lukewarm Christianity displeases God. In fact, verses 16 and 17 prove that believers' body, which is the temple of God, should not be defiled with works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21), for if it is defiled, the soul will be destroyed by eternal fire.

 

[Red33]

The Judgment Seat of Christ for believers is not based on works of the flesh, as believers ought not to walk after the flesh fulfilling its lust thereof (Gal 5:16), rather it will be in regards to issues concerning soul-winning (Matt 28:19-20) and fruitfulness in evangelism. Some will receive eternal rewards for winning souls for the Kingdom, using their talents to serve God, leadership and discipleship (1 Cor 3:8-9, 1 Pet 5:2-4), etc., (note, those works do not merit salvation). God will judge our works based on our motives behind them, are they done to receive praises from men or to please God? (Matt 6:1, Col 3:23-24, 2 Tim 2:5). If they are done out of a right motive He will acknowledge them and reward and if not, those works will be deemed worthless but the individual will be saved.

1 Cor 3 should not be interpreted in reference to carnal Christianity as the scripture states that the carnal mind is enmity with God, therefore carnal, barren, lukewarm Christianity displeases God. In fact, verses 16 and 17 prove that believers' body, which is the temple of God, should not be defiled with works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21), for if it is defiled, the soul will be destroyed by eternal fire.

What you have said concerns works that are done IN THE BODY of the believer. Notice what the verse says in (1Cor 5:10)...

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These scriptures are not just speaking to motive but also to the sort of works done in the body and that would include any work done in the body as a carnal believer, which would fall under the setting of 'bad works' that are burned up as wood, hay and stubble. You have to be able to see that and when these are burned up and suffer loss (by not being rewarded to the believer), they themselves shall be saved as by fire.

1Cor 3:15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (not just the motive but also the sort, manner, source and quality)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The believer did not suffer loss because of 'good works' done in his body, for those will be tried by the fire and will be considered precious and will be rewarded.

These works that come from the carnal man do not please God and they are works produced by the flesh and not the Spirit and they are bad works and not good works that will suffer the loss of all rewards. We either produce 'bad works' done in our body through the energy of the flesh (wood, hay and stubble) or we do 'good works' done in our body through the activity of the Spirit (gold, silver and precious stones). We are to provoke one another unto love and good works (Heb 10:24, Mt 5:16, Acts 9:36, Eph 2:10, 1Tim 2:10, 2Tim 3:17, Titus 2:7, 1Pt 2:12).

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

These are those who are absent of any good works because they are reprobate (devoid of and are disapproved) and do not have the good work of God's righteousness imputed unto them by faith, for they never believed in the cross and that God raised Christ from the dead. This is why they are abominable, disobedient and reprobate unto EVERY good work. These will be judged according to their works at the white throne judgment in (Rev 20:11-15) (not the judgment of the believers).

 

[Hungry]

Wow, that's all quite a bit to chew on. I'm not disagreeing with anything here but I find Romans 8 helps simplify things. If you are in Christ and the Spirit of him who raised Christ from the dead lives in you, then you're good to go. Although it might not be all at once God is transforming you. The Bible makes sense. You desire to seek the one true God. You desire to please Him. Even if you look at a woman or a man and think "That's looks tasty" and you recognize that is wrong because the Holy Spirit inside you told you to smarten up, you are still saved. My understanding of covetousness is wanting something to the point of not liking the owner because of your jealousy. Personally I don't think it sinful to desire a good paying career as long as it doesn't conflict with a God honoring lifestyle. I've known many successful people in the church and they are extremely generous. I think a dogmatic approach to scripture is good for instructing Christian "adults" but may hinder a "newreborn". Anyway, good discussion.

 

[psychomom]

A Christian obeys from the heart. It is all about the heart. It is a heart issue.

Faith purifies the heart. Faith works by love. Faith upholds the righteousness of the law in the heart and by faith one manifests the fruit of righteousness. Faith accesses the grace of God and it is by faith that the grace/provision of God is put into working effect in one's life.

Thus a true child of God is manifest to the world by their conduct. If their conduct is still wicked then they need to forsake all wrongdoing by crucifying their flesh and then yield to God by walking after the Spirit. You cannot do both.

Hi, Scott.

As you know by now, I do have that wondrous 'cloak of righteousness'. I am ever thankful for it, for without it I can never, ever, ever be good enough to satisfy the Father.
This does not mean obedience is not required (ever ever!)...it's just that my own obedience is not righteousness. Not the sort of perfect, holy righteousness required by God.

I totally agree that the believer obeys from the heart.
And that God's children manifest Him by their conduct...in word, in deed, and in thought.

The thing is...my conduct isn't always or only visible to the world. It's what God sees that matters, right?
And since the heart is what matters, we cannot just avoid the negatives...musn't see, musn't hear, musn't touch.
If I am completely obedient to the law of God, but don't have love (agape...God's love), I fail.
If my obedience stems from a place that isn't love for God and others, I fail.
If I obey in my flesh, I fail.
If I obey all the 'shalt nots', and don't so the 'shall dos', I fail.

That's why the imputed righteousness of Jesus is not only Biblical, it's the only Way to God.
I don't believe it's scriptural to say I have to be good enough before I can be saved...that's just pure pride.
And I don't believe that my obedience to ALL the ways of God in ALL things at ALL times toward ALL people could ever, ever measure up to the standard of righteousness set before us.

Good as Jesus? Obedient as Jesus? Perfect as Jesus?

Nope.
I don't think so, or why would we have so desperately needed Jesus?
Why send a Savior if man is able to do these things without Him?
I'm just really wond'ring about that, from your POV.

love,
ellie

 

[Red33]

Jesus never coveted his family. He defined who His brothers and sisters were (Lk 8:21) but He never put his family first. He put the work of the Father first. He loved His earthly mother but many of His siblings did not believe in Him. I always am amazed when I read the following...

Mt 10:34-38
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Lk 14:26,27
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

These passages always seems to offend so many and when they discovered through preaching as to what Christ is saying, many stop following Him because they love their family too much to esteem their love for Christ and follow the Lord. The forsaking and hating is not abandoning your family but you put the work and call of God first, so that none of these things you count dear will keep you from following hard after the Lord. Don't let your love and affection you have for your family keep you from being a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. Even if they want to depart we have to let them as we follow Christ in the plan and will of God. We belong to Him and (100) years from now, we will see what these passages really meant in terms of eternity.

The very things that we refuse to forsake in the will of God are the things that we covet and when we covet these things they take us out of the will of God and from being a disciple of the Lord. Many single woman covet a child and will do anything to get one outside of marriage. They covet being a mother and want that experience, but not God's way. They have been made to think that they are lacking something in their life if they do not have a child and experience motherhood. They fear that they will pass the flower of their age and not be acceptable to their peers or to their family because they did not have or raise a family. Nothing wrong with wanting to be a mother and having children as long as it is done in the will of God and not in the lust of the flesh through covetousness or pressure from others.

 

[Skinski7]

Hi, Scott.

As you know by now, I do have that wondrous 'cloak of righteousness'. I am ever thankful for it, for without it I can never, ever, ever be good enough to satisfy the Father.
This does not mean obedience is not required (ever ever!)...it's just that my own obedience is not righteousness. Not the sort of perfect, holy righteousness required by God.

I totally agree that the believer obeys from the heart.
And that God's children manifest Him by their conduct...in word, in deed, and in thought.

The thing is...my conduct isn't always or only visible to the world. It's what God sees that matters, right?
And since the heart is what matters, we cannot just avoid the negatives...musn't see, musn't hear, musn't touch.
If I am completely obedient to the law of God, but don't have love (agape...God's love), I fail.
If my obedience stems from a place that isn't love for God and others, I fail.
If I obey in my flesh, I fail.
If I obey all the 'shalt nots', and don't so the 'shall dos', I fail.

That's why the imputed righteousness of Jesus is not only Biblical, it's the only Way to God.
I don't believe it's scriptural to say I have to be good enough before I can be saved...that's just pure pride.
And I don't believe that my obedience to ALL the ways of God in ALL things at ALL times toward ALL people could ever, ever measure up to the standard of righteousness set before us.

Good as Jesus? Obedient as Jesus? Perfect as Jesus?

Nope.
I don't think so, or why would we have so desperately needed Jesus?
Why send a Savior if man is able to do these things without Him?
I'm just really wond'ring about that, from your POV.

love,
ellie

The fallacy in your thinking in regards to what I write is thinking that when I say "we must yield to God" that I am saying "we don't need Jesus cos we can do these things without Him."

Why did Jesus come?

He came to save people from their sins.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Why do people need to be saved from their sins?

Firstly, the condemnation wrought from rebellion demands death. There is nothing than anyone can do to undo that. A sinner stands guilty as charged and no amount of good works or obedience can undo the condemnation. Jesus offered Himself that this past record of rebellion be remitted through His blood. He was a perfect sinless sacrifice given under the law by which God forbears and passes over the sins of men. That is one reason that Jesus came.

Do you still think I teach we don't need Jesus?

Jesus came for another reason. He came to set the captives free. Sinners are held captive to their sin in the bondage of the lusts of their flesh. This bondage is broken through a sinner becoming an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus set Himself as an example for all men and calls all to pick up their cross, deny themselves, and FOLLOW Him.

First we must DIE WITH HIM which is a figurative description of dying to the rudiments of the world through repentance and faith. This is the time when we come to Jesus Christ and are BROKEN through and through upon Him. A time of godly sorrow and realisation over how we have gone OUR OWN WAY in departing from Christ.

Jesus was the light that lights EVERY MAN that comes into the world. You NEED THAT LIGHT. You NEED Jesus. When men CHOOSE to sin they, by necessity, SUPPRESS THE LIGHT and harden themselves towards it. The act of sinning then becomes hardwired both physically and mentally and extreme bondage is the result.

The Romans wretch (Rom 7) is an example of a man being in this bondage for he is CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN (Rom 7:14). He sold himself for nought (Isa 52:3) and was taken away captive. He does what he KNOWS NOT (Rom 7:15) for he is in darkness. He knows that the standard set forth in the law is good and would like to comply yet he cannot because he does not know HOW TO in his state of darkness and bondage (Rom 7:18).

There is a LAW IN HIS MEMBERS which is battling against the LAW IN HIS MIND (Rom 7:23) and he is held in captive due to this law in his members.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Look at this parallel verse...

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And this...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Law in my members, the flesh lusteth against the spirit, the carnal mind is enmity against God.

Who shall deliver this man? You imply that I teach that he can deliver himself right? You are very wrong and I think your mind must selectively read what I write focusing in on snippets. The vast majority of people rebut my writings with CONJECTURE and RHETORIC ignoring the actual content, questions, and points I make. They just blow all that off and somehow twist it into "your teaching that you don't need Jesus" or "your teaching that the law saves you" etc.

Anyway back to this bondage.

The wretch cried out...

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He needs DELIVERANCE from BONDAGE. Just like Israel needed DELIVERANCE from EGYPT.

In his mind he serves the law of God but his flesh serves the law of sin. The flesh will always serve the law of sin because APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD you are a BEAST. You are an ANIMAL who lives according to ANIMAL LUSTS.

This is why the flesh MUST BE CRUCIFIED along with the passions and desires. The BEAST MAN cannot be reformed. He must DIE. How does he die? He dies with Christ through repentance and faith whereby the sinner PUTS OFF THE OLD MAN and is then RAISED TO NEWNESS OF LIFE by the power of God.

This NEW LIFE is WALKING (what you do) in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation for those who WALK in this state.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law COULD NOT change the heart because the law is only a LIST OF RULES which can be adhered to OUTWARDLY. The law does not change the inward man. The law is an illustration of OUTWARD RIGHT CONDUCT and thus sets forth a STANDARD by which to live by. Jesus was/is a perfectly righteous teacher of righteousness, the law illustrates a standard of righteousness and thus POINTS to Jesus Christ who was the EMBODIMENT of the law.

True righteousness CONDUCT is only an OUTWARD MANIFESTATION of INWARD HEART PURITY. When an individual FORSAKES THEIR OWN WAY and returns to YIELDING to the source of righteousness, returns to YIELDING to the light that lights every man then the HEART IF MADE PURE because it is PLUGGED INTO GOD so to speak.

When we yield 100% to the leading of God having been broken in repentance and put off former things then God will MANIFEST true righteousness THROUGH US.

This is why Paul taught this...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul was crucified WITH Christ. He lived but not according to the BEAST MAN but was instead in SUBMISSION TO GOD whereby he walked by faith letting God direct ALL HIS STEPS. Exactly as Jesus walked.

He did not frustrate the grace of God by seeking righteousness in the OUTWARD RULE LIST, no He sought righteousness in the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST.


There IS NO CLOAK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS taught in the Bible. You cannot find it anywhere. You are free to believe it but you cannot quote a single scripture which teaches such a cloak. That doctrine is INJECTED into passages with pure conjecture whilst IGNORING the entire context.

Jesus DID NOT TEACH that the record of His obedience and righteous conduct would be JUDICIALLY credited to your account. That is a damnable heresy which gives people A FALSE ASSURANCE that they can still be MANIFESTLY UNRIGHTEOUS yet still enter the kingdom because they are POSITIONALLY RIGHTEOUS.

It is a very dangerous and insidious teaching which is right from the pit.

Righteousness is simply this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It is DOING the right thing BY FAITH. A faith that works by love and thus FULFILLS the law. We DO THE RIGHT THING because we ABIDE IN THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST. God thus MANIFESTS Himself THROUGH US because we are VESSELS who do not suppress or hinder God working in us.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

I see many mixing the all or nothing to salvation, as either you are perfect as Jesus, or you are a wretched sinner, plus those who believe imputation where Jesus took our place and wrath fail to see that this false teaching makes obedience and holiness let alone stopping any sin an option also.

Many will not come out and say you can fornicate and still be saved, yet this is what you are actually saying, Scott is talikng about wilfill sins of the flesh, such as gee I am lonely I think I will go out and find a woman tonight, or gee I am bored and lonely, I think I will go to the bar and slam some brewskies with my friends, or gee my neighbor is very mean to me, I think I will go vandalize his car, and steal his news paper, etc..

This is wilful, premeditated sin as I see it, thought out, and followed through with, intent to be disobedient to God, but mistakes, faults, slip ups etc,, are a part of our long praticed nature, and personalities and are not sins to death, but can be if they lead to taking us away from God, and living in the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.