I agree there..What I am trying to understand is how is one called a legalist when you simply say, By God's Spirit I can live for him, and do not have to live in my old ways that i used to live when i once was in sin and without Christ! How in the world that is legalism? If this accusation is not seeking to defend a licentious lifestyle i do not know what it is. That or they simply are quick to accuse anything that convicts them or makes them feel less than 'spiritual' and hate all that they call and consider 'religious' for the sake of looking appealing to the world. Once again, this all is rooted in a sinfull mindset and if they are so unwilling to be holiness minded, maybe its because they are thinking and meditating more on sin, than on God and his holiness...hmmm..
hi rauleetoe
i would first like to say that despite the differences in our respective theological beliefs (i,e: you are a classical arminian/synergist - i am a confessional lutheran and monergist < we know these are just short-hand for our convictions), i respect your writings.
and am built up by much of what you profess personally, though our theology is so different.
i'm pretty sure i understand what you are saying overall, and actually readily agree with you when you express your hearts desire concerning living for Christ, by the Spirit, laying aside all that horrible old stuff of which we are now ashamed.
the only reason i chose this particular post of yours to respond to is to maybe help you see where some of us might be coming from (i'm not speaking for anyone else you're currently in dialogue with; perhaps not for anyone but myself, at all...i dunno).....but i wanted to say this....
your observation here is actually a really good one:
"maybe its because they are thinking and meditating more on sin, than on God and his holiness...hmmm"
in one very important respect, what you have said
is true. so much preaching of the LAW DOES keep us "thinking about sin". just not always our own, as you may think. i'm just really concerned for new believers.
for myself (and i know for others) it's not that we are personally "thinking and meditating more on [our] sin...how much can i get away with kind of thing" (and as has been claimed here "using a mythical cloak of Christ's Imputed Righteousness as an excuse for wicked rebellion!!) < ugh.
it's that here in the forums and in far too many pulpits and through other means, we hear THE LAW THE LAW THE LAW being hammered away, and hammered away. this in the long run is not good for Christians and it certainly is a disaster for unbelievers who do not hear the Good News right alongside the Law!
rauleetoe, i am aware you know all this, having read many of your posts.
so we can hopefully by-pass all the cross-purpose posting. at least, i'd like to.
"maybe its because they are thinking and meditating more on sin, than on God and his holiness...hmmm"
i know you know the Law is Good.
the problem is not with the Law.
the problem is we need
a permanent and trustworthy remedy for our inability to live up to the Law in our own strength (flesh). i know you agree with that, you said so in the very post above.
so what's the point of this reply? i guess just to try to say that not everyone who raises an objection to repeated preaching of LAW LAW LAW is reacting out of a 'secret desire to live a licentious lifestyle'. i know for me it isn't true. i hate it when i sin....i did so much of it before i was washed i am sick of it! i abhor it. i get physically ill. i don't however ever claim to be without sin...no, unfortunately not.
the objection i have to so many LAW LAW LAW (perfectionism and/or total failure) threads and posts is the lack of Christ Crucified, God blotting out our transgressions and truly persuading us, delivering and conforming us....the lack of encouragement for those who ARE really, really struggling (if they weren't being convicted and suffering as a result of sin, they wouldn't be struggling!)...i object to the lack of real encouragement (not from you rauleetoe - that's why i'm writing to you - i know you are reasonable and are not preaching just LAW, but are genuine in your pursuit of holiness. i see you bringing the Gospel into your posts as well) that though the sin has to be overcome, the Holy Spirit ABSOLUTELY WILL DELIVER US Home.
the Scripture is clear on it. if we persevere...if we keep fighting for the faith...we are ASSURED He will deliver us. maybe we need to look at what the Scriptures say about those who actually have received the Spirit. there's so much comfort there (not comfort to wallow in sin...comfort that He is FOR US in our agony AND joy, not against us).
i also see many who say they too are focusing on the Law (they won't admit that's what they're doing) because they are in pursuit of holiness, but in reality, they are only putting on a religious show concerning that. after awhile we can eventually discern, i think you'll agree. not all who just talk the talk also truly walk the walk.
so, your valid concerns about people not laying aside sin and sloth and so on acknowledged..... why do so many claim near sinlessness and nearly continuous holiness (which they oft place side by side with God's Pure Holiness) but are merely putting on a show? my belief is that they have grown up under and actually think they fulfill THE LAW! that's all they've heard from a youth...LAW.
honestly, i must say i would rather be found admitting to my loathsome failures when i sin than to be found consistently claiming super-holiness because i have begun to believe i can and do fulfill the LAW!
again, i know this is not what
you are saying...i've been careful to read your writing.
but i'm sure you've seen some of the wretched threads here which are all about "WE ARE PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS UNDER THE LAW, and this is indeed supposed to be our goal!" < this kind of teaching can only and ever lead to failure, and actually, if we know our scriptures, it is an outrage to the Lord, after having sent His Son - we STILL have ppl who think they are as Righteous as He is!!!!
so, this post isn't so much TO you rauleetoe (though i do want to say hello, and that i get what you are saying and say amen to your desire), but is more to/about those who preach LAW (dressed up as their victorious selves) all day long - about how that LAW LAW LAW continually without the Gospel is what causes some of us to react repeatedly with the Gospel.....which, i agree with you at times seems to lack any conviction under the Law at all.
anyway, i prolly made no sense at all....
but hopefully Jose won't minf if i do this:
"Re: Is <fruitful dialogue> possible between <Lutherans> and Arminians?"
i don't know...is it?
God Bless
zone
~
SCRIBES AND LAWYERS IN CYBERLAND AND OUR CHURCHES: please...if you're going to preach your great righteousness under the LAW...at least have a scrap of paper with the Gospel at hand to strengthen the hands that hang down and to give hope to those miserable tax-collectors you have jump-started into striving in their flesh!
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
