The three Hebrew letters on the Shroud of Turin

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Shilo

Shilo

Senior Member
#1
Aug 31, 2011
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#1
The three Hebrew letters on the Shroud of Turin. I do not remember if I asked this before so sorry if I have . The experts can not come to an agreement on the three letter on the shroud. This is a list of their guesses :
Ayin 'aleph-nun
tsade-'aleph-gimel.
tsade-'aleph-waw
one person thinks it is not ment as letters or words but as
ayin-aleph are the Hebrew numerals: 70 + 1 = 71, and the non-final nun is the first letter of the Hebrew word Nasi (= ruler) or Nesiim (= rulers): the Great Sanhedrin’s seventy ordinary members plus the president.
Would like to know what others think and why . Thank you God bless.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#2
#2
I think it's a lot number, put there by the manufacturers. I cannot see it in situ in any of the pictures I have Googled up.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#4
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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#4
I'm sorry but what are you guys talking about? Did they find some sort of scrolls for the bible or something? I heard they found anceint doucuments from i think the first the first book of the bible. what were they called again? sea scrolls?
 
Shilo

Shilo

Senior Member
#5
Aug 31, 2011
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#5
Blain said:
I'm sorry but what are you guys talking about? Did they find some sort of scrolls for the bible or something? I heard they found anceint doucuments from i think the first the first book of the bible. what were they called again? sea scrolls?
Click to expand...
On the post just before yours I put a link to one of the pages on this. just click on the link on the above post "the three Hebrew letters on the surface of the solid object".
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#6
#6
Hebrew would require a nun-sophit at the end of a word. This is not a nun-sophit. From photo 10, it is clearly ordinary nun.

I checked combinations of tsadee/ayin/zayin - aleph - nun/vav/gimel. Only ts'on "sheep" works, but it requires a nun sophit. Besides, no one knew Jesus was the Passover Lamb until after He rose and they had time to pray it through.

An abbreviation? Spells have been found written on such ornaments in fourth/fifth century Christian graves. i know of none in abbreviation, however.

Given how hard it is to read, might it be Greek? Iota, lambda, upsilon if followed by sigma is "mud"?

I believe the shroud is a late fourth century forgery, as it does not appear in early versions of Eusebius, but only in later, in the letter of Abgarus. That's the reason I broaden where I look for it.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#7
#7
Blain said:
I'm sorry but what are you guys talking about? Did they find some sort of scrolls for the bible or something? I heard they found anceint doucuments from i think the first the first book of the bible. what were they called again? sea scrolls?
Click to expand...
The Shroud of Turin is a burial cloth with something like an x-ray image of a crucified man. Many believe it is Jesus. This is a new detail I am seeing for the first time. The man is wearing a neck ornament of some kind, or this is something placed over his neck. It appears to have letters on it, but the image is very hard to see. The question is what are the letters, if indeed that is what they are, and what do they mean?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#8
#8
Shilo said:
one person thinks it is not ment as letters or words but as
ayin-aleph are the Hebrew numerals: 70 + 1 = 71, and the non-final nun is the first letter of the Hebrew word Nasi (= ruler) or Nesiim (= rulers): the Great Sanhedrin’s seventy ordinary members plus the president.
Would like to know what others think and why . Thank you God bless.
Click to expand...
The Sanhedrin would not have touched the dead body on the eve of Passover. Scripture is quite clear that Joseph of Arimathea, Mary, and few disciples took Him down and buried Him.

The ornament would have to be placed after death, or the soldiers would have cast lots for it and stolen it.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#9
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#9
kenisyes said:
The Sanhedrin would not have touched the dead body on the eve of Passover. Scripture is quite clear that Joseph of Arimathea, Mary, and few disciples took Him down and buried Him.

The ornament would have to be placed after death, or the soldiers would have cast lots for it and stolen it.
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then there's this:

John 20
The Resurrection
1Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’a head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10Then the disciples went back to their homes.


i read that the custom was that the Master of the house placed his napkin down using a certain fold to indicate He was satisfied, and the servants could then eat.

do you know about that Ken?

if accurate, it adds a beauty to this passage.
i hope it's true.
love zone.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#10
#10
I did not know that. I guess I just always figured it was like getting up out of bed. He slipped off the covers, stretched, took off the face cloth, and had it in His hands as he walked across the inside of the tomb. It certainly explains why the napkin is mentioned. The lack of mention of the piece of metal with the letters is noteworthy as well. It tends to support my forgery hypothesis.
 
Shilo

Shilo

Senior Member
#11
Aug 31, 2011
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#11
The way I heard this was, If the master of the house folded his napkin it was a signal not to remove his plate at the table he was coming back.
 
Shilo

Shilo

Senior Member
#12
Aug 31, 2011
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#12
I do not see how it could be a forgey. People who are try to make one like it now are having problems.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#13
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#13
Shilo said:
The way I heard this was, If the master of the house folded his napkin it was a signal not to remove his plate at the table he was coming back.
Click to expand...
cool....this requires some investigation!
do you have any info on that shilo?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#15
#15
zone said:
awww......:)

W.E. Nunnally, Ph.D.
Professor of Early Judaism and Christian Origins
Evangel University

http://www.isitinthebible.com/nt/napkin.htm < click

looks like Ken might be right.
Click to expand...
The Talmud says that at the Feast of Tabernacles, a napkin was "hung" over the door of the sukkah, to let potential guests know they were welcome to join in the meals inside.

Who would want to eat with a napkin that covered a bloody face?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#16
#16
Shilo said:
I do not see how it could be a forgey. People who are try to make one like it now are having problems.
Click to expand...
My explanation would be that as the Catholic-commanded Roman armies advanced toward a specific presumed-"heretical" church, their survival depended upon having been founded by an apostle. The letter of Abgarus is a purported letter in Jesus' own hand, written during His time on earth, where He promised to send an apostle to heal the sick king Abgarus after He rose. The original does not mention a shroud, later copies (after 400AD) do. Proof of authenticity would save the lives of every member of such a "heretical" church. The picture of the man in the shroud was the defining portrait of Christ from about 600AD for several hundred years, but not before. Motive.

The church got a "volunteer", who was dying anyway, and crucified him. They got an antique burial cloth from the right area, and the rest happened as we find it. There was probably a member of the church who was previously a Roman executioner who got saved, and so they got all the now long-forgotten details right. Opportunity.

I can't get into the image itself in detail here, but the technology existed, and is a derivative of the "shamir", which you can look up. The Talmud says it was operating in the Temple in the prophets' time, and the urim-thummim, also derived from the same technology, was still operating in Jesus' time. Means.
 
Marcella

Marcella

Senior Member
#17
May 26, 2011
141
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#17
kenisyes said:
I did not know that. I guess I just always figured it was like getting up out of bed. He slipped off the covers, stretched, took off the face cloth, and had it in His hands as he walked across the inside of the tomb. It certainly explains why the napkin is mentioned. The lack of mention of the piece of metal with the letters is noteworthy as well. It tends to support my forgery hypothesis.
Click to expand...
Just a quick question, but the shroud was only one piece, wasn't it? The scripture refers to the face cloth as well as the burial cloth, so how can this shroud be authentic? Or is this shroud in two pieces and I just didn't remember it correctly?

Thanks,
Marcella
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#18
#18
Marcella said:
Just a quick question, but the shroud was only one piece, wasn't it? The scripture refers to the face cloth as well as the burial cloth, so how can this shroud be authentic? Or is this shroud in two pieces and I just didn't remember it correctly?

Thanks,
Marcella
Click to expand...
The story says the pieces became separated. I don't think anyone knows where the face cloth is. There is a third cloth, supposedly still around. A woman named Veronica wiped Jesus' face when He was carrying the cross. (supposedly based on Luke 23:27, I think.)
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#19
#19
zone said:
awww......:)

W.E. Nunnally, Ph.D.
Professor of Early Judaism and Christian Origins
Evangel University

http://www.isitinthebible.com/nt/napkin.htm < click

looks like Ken might be right.
Click to expand...
my husband is exhausted (been working like the proverbial dog, 16 hours a day...)
and is taking a day of rest, and sleeping in a little.

but now i want to clunk around so he'll wake up so i can show him this!
(i won't...but i'd like to. :) )

so cool. &#9829;
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#20
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#20
kenisyes said:
My explanation would be that as the Catholic-commanded Roman armies advanced toward a specific presumed-"heretical" church, their survival depended upon having been founded by an apostle. The letter of Abgarus is a purported letter in Jesus' own hand, written during His time on earth, where He promised to send an apostle to heal the sick king Abgarus after He rose. The original does not mention a shroud, later copies (after 400AD) do. Proof of authenticity would save the lives of every member of such a "heretical" church. The picture of the man in the shroud was the defining portrait of Christ from about 600AD for several hundred years, but not before. Motive.

The church got a "volunteer", who was dying anyway, and crucified him. They got an antique burial cloth from the right area, and the rest happened as we find it. There was probably a member of the church who was previously a Roman executioner who got saved, and so they got all the now long-forgotten details right. Opportunity.

I can't get into the image itself in detail here, but the technology existed, and is a derivative of the "shamir", which you can look up. The Talmud says it was operating in the Temple in the prophets' time, and the urim-thummim, also derived from the same technology, was still operating in Jesus' time. Means.
Click to expand...
i like it!:)

 
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