Total Depravity vs. Freewill
- Thread starter RickShafer
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R
Yes in the Light of God's Holiness we are all in trouble..but here is where I must question what you just said. If a person has been predetermined to be condemned since the beginning of time..not only is he or she in trouble..it would be better off if they never existed! They have no other option BUT to sin..and God has not provided a way, according to Calvinism so what other options do they have? Is this the good news of the gospel I ask you?
i'm not a calvinist. why are you on and on about it?
do you agree there will be ppl who reject the Gospel?
can you force them to drink from the Rock?
no.
it won't matter if you didn't believe in predestination or did. they'll refuse.
so what do you do?
preach Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins and know that:
Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Revelation 22
17The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
like...seriously raul.
just go on about the Gospel.
why do you keep bringing this back to Calvinism?
you seem to agree that no one can save themselves, the Gospel is the power unto salvation.
so just use what you have been given.
what you'll find is that there are those who will just refuse.
and it won't be because someone told them they weren't the elect.
it'll be because they think they are a good person - God loves everyone.
i'm okay, you're okay.
i don't sin, raul....i'm a good person.
okay raul....how do i stop sinning so the Lord will accept me?
okay...i don't sin anymore: will God save me now? < self-deceived
um....no.
this doesn't work.
just preach the Gospel raul
love zone.
do you agree there will be ppl who reject the Gospel?
can you force them to drink from the Rock?
no.
it won't matter if you didn't believe in predestination or did. they'll refuse.
so what do you do?
preach Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of sins and know that:
Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Revelation 22
17The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
like...seriously raul.
just go on about the Gospel.
why do you keep bringing this back to Calvinism?
you seem to agree that no one can save themselves, the Gospel is the power unto salvation.
so just use what you have been given.
what you'll find is that there are those who will just refuse.
and it won't be because someone told them they weren't the elect.
it'll be because they think they are a good person - God loves everyone.
i'm okay, you're okay.
i don't sin, raul....i'm a good person.
okay raul....how do i stop sinning so the Lord will accept me?
okay...i don't sin anymore: will God save me now? < self-deceived
um....no.
this doesn't work.
just preach the Gospel raul
love zone.
Can someone explain to me how one can be totally depraved, where as they have the inability to respond (yes or no) to the voice of God beckoning them by His Holy Spirit about His truth and whereby they need God to intervene and make choice for them, and how God on the other hand says that everyone is without excuse?
Let me simplify this, How can be totally depraved (in a calvinist view point) and at the same time be without excuse? Read scriptures below.
Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (who is suppressing the truth here?) 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them (this is totally depraved? sounds like that have something), for God has shown it to them <<---(God reveals himself to all).-->> 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God <<--(is this total depravity?), they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
If it is God who is suppressing the truth to the ungodly, then how can the ungodly be held accountable for not believing?
Let me simplify this, How can be totally depraved (in a calvinist view point) and at the same time be without excuse? Read scriptures below.
Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (who is suppressing the truth here?) 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them (this is totally depraved? sounds like that have something), for God has shown it to them <<---(God reveals himself to all).-->> 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God <<--(is this total depravity?), they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
If it is God who is suppressing the truth to the ungodly, then how can the ungodly be held accountable for not believing?
U
Neither do I. But I did like the "To God be all the glory" part 
All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.
All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.hi bookends.
again, i'm lutheran, not calvinist.
TULIP imo is unfortunate (calvin didnt come up with it btw)
forgive the use of stoopidpedia, but it's the basic i use now for simple discussion because it never gets anything completely right or wrong and it seems to acceptable as neutral ground for start-up.
would you disagree with this part?
Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through humanity.[9]
and here, ultimately the only other alternative is the Corridors of time - God makes His decision based on what He learned about choices men would make:
Unconditional election is the Calvinist teaching that before God created the world, he chose to save some people according to his own purposes and apart from any conditions related to those persons.[1] The counter-view is conditional election, the belief that God chooses, for eternal salvation, those whom he foresees will have faith in Christ.
we can't even really refine either of those. we just can't. if it's been done, i haven't seen it.
which is why i'm a lutheran. i could not fully resolve this issue either way.
i see the passages that speak to election and say - okay...there they are. and the passages which speak to choice and say, okay - that's there also.
i depart from TULIP here:
Limited atonement (or definite atonement or particular redemption) is a doctrine accepted in some Christian theological traditions. It is particularly associated with the Reformed tradition and is one of the five points of Calvinism. The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is specifically designed for the elect only, that He only died for them.
while in the broader sense that the efficacy of the Atonement in the end is only applied to the saved, my position is that Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all the sins ever committed throughout time by all men.
this is based on my belief that the infinitely sufficient Sacrifice was provided by the Perfect Lamb of God, the Son of God and could never fall short of covering any sin.
we know that the Atonement doesn't save every man though.
so i can rest alongside L.A. in that sense, but in that sense only. it's not a choice between election and reprobation for me, rather a holding to 'what is the Atonement ' - and i must say Unlimited in the sense of the Atonement's efficacy. not in the sense of will all men be availed of it.
this part, i agree with in large part:
Irresistible Grace: According to Calvinism, those who obtain salvation do so, not by their own "free" will, but because of the sovereign grace of God. That is, men yield to grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will, are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, God must powerfully intervene.
here's a closer look at my beliefs (Irresistable Grace):
Like Calvinists, Lutherans view the work of salvation as monergistic in which an unconverted or unrepentant person always resists and rejects God and his ways.[4] Even during conversion, the Formula of Concord says, humans resist "the Word and will of God, until God awakens him from the death of sin, enlightens and renews him."[5] Furthermore, they both see the preaching of the gospel as a means of grace by which God offers salvation.
Calvinists distinguish between a resistible, outward call to salvation given to all who hear the free offer of the gospel, and an efficacious, inward work by the Holy Spirit. Every person is unwilling to follow the outward call to salvation until, as the Westminster Confession puts it, "being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it."[6] Once inwardly renewed, every person freely follows God and his ways as "not only the obligatory but the preferable good,"[7] and hence that special renewing grace is always effective.
Contrary to the Calvinist position, Lutherans hold that whenever the Holy Spirit works outwardly through the Word and sacraments, he always acts inwardly through them as well. Unlike Calvinists, Lutherans believe the Holy Spirit always works efficaciously.[8] The Word heard by those that resist it is just as efficacious as the Word preached to those that convert.[9] The Formula of Concord teaches that when humans reject the calling of the Holy Spirit, it is not a result of the Word being less efficacious. Instead, contempt for the means of grace is the result of "the perverse will of man, which rejects or perverts the means and instrument of the Holy Ghost, which God offers him through the call, and resists the Holy Ghost, who wishes to be efficacious, and works through the Word..."[10]
and this i can agree with.
Perseverance of the saints....is a Calvinist teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God", or "regenerated" nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39).
Sometimes this position is held in conjunction with Reformed Christian confessions of faith in traditional Calvinist doctrine which argues that all men are "dead in trespasses and sins", and thus, apart from being resurrected from spiritual death to spiritual life none choose salvation of their own accord.
here's what Lutheranism actually teaches though:
Like both Calvinist camps, confessional Lutherans view the work of salvation as monergistic in that "the natural [that is, corrupted and divinely unrenewed] powers of man cannot do anything or help towards salvation",[12] and Lutherans go further along the same lines as the Free Grace advocates to say that the recipient of saving grace need not cooperate with it. Hence, Lutherans believe that a true Christian (that is, a genuine recipient of saving grace) can lose his or her salvation, "ut the cause is not as though God were unwilling to grant grace for perseverance to those in whom He has begun the good work… [but that these persons] wilfully turn away…"[13]
it is the above part i personally am not in complete alignment with my church though.
i do not believe a truly born again individual can be lost, or will depart.
Lutherans teach it as they do all other things:
"it says this (eternal security) AND it says this (some fall away)" < OK? AMEN....TIME FOR COFFEE AND CASSEROLE
so, what i like best about my denom is that i am not forced to resolve these issues, i am simply urged to remember my baptism (baptised into Christ); and continue on in Christ all the days of my life (abiding and remaining)
i believe He leads me in this, and He will not forsake me.
i know i have no other desire, and this did not come from ME.
.......
summary: i'm okay with calvinism, and love my calvinist brothers and sisters. monergism is the tie that binds us.
dunno if any of that makes any more sense than any other beliefs, but there you have it.
zone
again, i'm lutheran, not calvinist.
TULIP imo is unfortunate (calvin didnt come up with it btw)
forgive the use of stoopidpedia, but it's the basic i use now for simple discussion because it never gets anything completely right or wrong
and it seems to acceptable as neutral ground for start-up.would you disagree with this part?
Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through humanity.[9]
and here, ultimately the only other alternative is the Corridors of time - God makes His decision based on what He learned about choices men would make:
Unconditional election is the Calvinist teaching that before God created the world, he chose to save some people according to his own purposes and apart from any conditions related to those persons.[1] The counter-view is conditional election, the belief that God chooses, for eternal salvation, those whom he foresees will have faith in Christ.
we can't even really refine either of those. we just can't. if it's been done, i haven't seen it.
which is why i'm a lutheran. i could not fully resolve this issue either way.
i see the passages that speak to election and say - okay...there they are. and the passages which speak to choice and say, okay - that's there also.
i depart from TULIP here:
Limited atonement (or definite atonement or particular redemption) is a doctrine accepted in some Christian theological traditions. It is particularly associated with the Reformed tradition and is one of the five points of Calvinism. The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is specifically designed for the elect only, that He only died for them.
while in the broader sense that the efficacy of the Atonement in the end is only applied to the saved, my position is that Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all the sins ever committed throughout time by all men.
this is based on my belief that the infinitely sufficient Sacrifice was provided by the Perfect Lamb of God, the Son of God and could never fall short of covering any sin.
we know that the Atonement doesn't save every man though.
so i can rest alongside L.A. in that sense, but in that sense only. it's not a choice between election and reprobation for me, rather a holding to 'what is the Atonement ' - and i must say Unlimited in the sense of the Atonement's efficacy. not in the sense of will all men be availed of it.
this part, i agree with in large part:
Irresistible Grace: According to Calvinism, those who obtain salvation do so, not by their own "free" will, but because of the sovereign grace of God. That is, men yield to grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will, are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, God must powerfully intervene.
here's a closer look at my beliefs (Irresistable Grace):
Like Calvinists, Lutherans view the work of salvation as monergistic in which an unconverted or unrepentant person always resists and rejects God and his ways.[4] Even during conversion, the Formula of Concord says, humans resist "the Word and will of God, until God awakens him from the death of sin, enlightens and renews him."[5] Furthermore, they both see the preaching of the gospel as a means of grace by which God offers salvation.
Calvinists distinguish between a resistible, outward call to salvation given to all who hear the free offer of the gospel, and an efficacious, inward work by the Holy Spirit. Every person is unwilling to follow the outward call to salvation until, as the Westminster Confession puts it, "being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it."[6] Once inwardly renewed, every person freely follows God and his ways as "not only the obligatory but the preferable good,"[7] and hence that special renewing grace is always effective.
Contrary to the Calvinist position, Lutherans hold that whenever the Holy Spirit works outwardly through the Word and sacraments, he always acts inwardly through them as well. Unlike Calvinists, Lutherans believe the Holy Spirit always works efficaciously.[8] The Word heard by those that resist it is just as efficacious as the Word preached to those that convert.[9] The Formula of Concord teaches that when humans reject the calling of the Holy Spirit, it is not a result of the Word being less efficacious. Instead, contempt for the means of grace is the result of "the perverse will of man, which rejects or perverts the means and instrument of the Holy Ghost, which God offers him through the call, and resists the Holy Ghost, who wishes to be efficacious, and works through the Word..."[10]
and this i can agree with.
Perseverance of the saints....is a Calvinist teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God", or "regenerated" nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39).
Sometimes this position is held in conjunction with Reformed Christian confessions of faith in traditional Calvinist doctrine which argues that all men are "dead in trespasses and sins", and thus, apart from being resurrected from spiritual death to spiritual life none choose salvation of their own accord.
here's what Lutheranism actually teaches though:
Like both Calvinist camps, confessional Lutherans view the work of salvation as monergistic in that "the natural [that is, corrupted and divinely unrenewed] powers of man cannot do anything or help towards salvation",[12] and Lutherans go further along the same lines as the Free Grace advocates to say that the recipient of saving grace need not cooperate with it. Hence, Lutherans believe that a true Christian (that is, a genuine recipient of saving grace) can lose his or her salvation, "ut the cause is not as though God were unwilling to grant grace for perseverance to those in whom He has begun the good work… [but that these persons] wilfully turn away…"[13]
it is the above part i personally am not in complete alignment with my church though.
i do not believe a truly born again individual can be lost, or will depart.
Lutherans teach it as they do all other things:
"it says this (eternal security) AND it says this (some fall away)" < OK? AMEN....TIME FOR COFFEE AND CASSEROLE
so, what i like best about my denom is that i am not forced to resolve these issues, i am simply urged to remember my baptism (baptised into Christ); and continue on in Christ all the days of my life (abiding and remaining)
i believe He leads me in this, and He will not forsake me.
i know i have no other desire, and this did not come from ME.
.......
summary: i'm okay with calvinism, and love my calvinist brothers and sisters. monergism is the tie that binds us.
dunno if any of that makes any more sense than any other beliefs, but there you have it.
zone
Last edited:
Neither do I. But I did like the "To God be all the glory" part All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.
All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.tsk....you posted the simple answer while i was off on Wiki.
ahem
eat Fester, eat!
R
Neither do I. But I did like the "To God be all the glory" part All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.
All of mankind will be without excuse before God ... this much we do know. And for me, this has always been enough. Ours is to trust God's reasoning and judgement. The freewill debate has gone on for centuries because of man's attempt to dissect it. Regardless of where one stands on the matter, all praise and glory belongs to God in Christ alone. Too simple for some .... too complicated for others.
Thats the misconception about those who reject Calvinism..that we want credit, its simply unfounded and untrue.
C
While I do believe in a form of depravity, I do not believe in total or complete depravity as defined by modern Calvinists. While I would agree that man is incapable of doing anything to save himself, I've heard far too many Calvinists attempt to use total depravity as a means to justify sin after salvation as if human depravity is somehow more powerful than the indwelling Holy Spirit. Both Romans 8 and Galatians 5 firmly establish that he who follows abides (walks) in the Spirit need not indulge the desires of the flesh thus the power of sin is clearly broken, that is if the believer chooses to abide in Him, thus turning to God who's strength is made perfect in our moments of weakness.
R
Who said i did not beleive in the gospel..five point calvinism is not the gospel.. its bad news.
Who said I did not believe in predestination? I just believe in a different definition of it..that does not need divine determinism in the definition. If predestination needs divine determinism to be defined as predestination/aka double predestination..Then yes, according to that it is not acceptance of it. But Arminius accepted Predestination as all Arminians do. (points to Arminian theology..myths and realities)
No one can force anyone..that I agree with. But are you avoiding what calvinism teaches? That God forces some to not serve him aka reject him..and they have no choice, they are still punished fo it though. That goes against his character. I keep mentioning Calvinism because you seem to be person who supports it without really knowing what Arminianism that is truly classical teaches. The gospel MUST always include repentance, if it does not..then that zone, is not the gospel..and the fruit of true sincere repentance means you walk with God. No excuses.
Who said I did not believe in predestination? I just believe in a different definition of it..that does not need divine determinism in the definition. If predestination needs divine determinism to be defined as predestination/aka double predestination..Then yes, according to that it is not acceptance of it. But Arminius accepted Predestination as all Arminians do. (points to Arminian theology..myths and realities)
No one can force anyone..that I agree with. But are you avoiding what calvinism teaches? That God forces some to not serve him aka reject him..and they have no choice, they are still punished fo it though. That goes against his character. I keep mentioning Calvinism because you seem to be person who supports it without really knowing what Arminianism that is truly classical teaches. The gospel MUST always include repentance, if it does not..then that zone, is not the gospel..and the fruit of true sincere repentance means you walk with God. No excuses.
R
Amen. In fact, it could be said that some of us actually believe in "greater grace", a doctrine of grace that far exceeds the classical reformed view.
You mean a grace that demands a true sincere response and not head knowledge? Yes..we need more than a belief..if we say we walk with God, let's not give him lip service. That's all i say, how is this wrong in the eyes of others I do not understand.
The gospel needs more than a philosophical mindset, we need to be true converts. To be a Christian actually means something.
R
I hear what you're saying Rauleetoe Both sides of this equation can post scripture(s) to back up their beliefs. The matter that all of us can know with certainty and agree on is that all will be without excuse before God ... and that His judgement will be righteous and just. Have a blessed day
Both sides of this equation can post scripture(s) to back up their beliefs. The matter that all of us can know with certainty and agree on is that all will be without excuse before God ... and that His judgement will be righteous and just. Have a blessed day
listen...if you can't be more careful with your dialogue, i see little point in continuing.
i know what Calvinism teaches.
faced with a choice, i will choose Monergism over Synergism everytime. if that means not having Lutheran churches, i go to reformed.
not 'Methods' where i have a warm feeling or bawl at an anxious bench then submit to interrogation by Asa and Charles wanna-bes.
"all you have to do is..........and then this, then this, then this."
i don't care how you dress up your theology, i don't care how many times you hate on calvin and express outrage that wesley was a sinner, no matter how often you appeal to GREATER GRACE than other christians....you walk in the Spirit more...etc etc
you're looking to boast. and you do.
you don't see it, but the most arrogant believers are not calvinists, they are FREEWILLERS.
i don't care how you dress it up, you have God doing YOUR WILL.
i know what Calvinism teaches.
faced with a choice, i will choose Monergism over Synergism everytime. if that means not having Lutheran churches, i go to reformed.
not 'Methods' where i have a warm feeling or bawl at an anxious bench then submit to interrogation by Asa and Charles wanna-bes.
"all you have to do is..........and then this, then this, then this."
i don't care how you dress up your theology, i don't care how many times you hate on calvin and express outrage that wesley was a sinner
, no matter how often you appeal to GREATER GRACE than other christians....you walk in the Spirit more...etc etcyou're looking to boast. and you do.
you don't see it, but the most arrogant believers are not calvinists, they are FREEWILLERS.
i don't care how you dress it up, you have God doing YOUR WILL.
Last edited: