Hears another one
Proverbs 8:36
"But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."
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Hears another one
Proverbs 8:36
"But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."
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lesjude
Guest
Only because He was drawn by effective grace as the predestined elect of God.
1 Corinthians 3:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
Here is election in Jesus' words:
John 6:65-66
New King James Version (NKJV)
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
A
Abiding
Guest
Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
These verses drew me. And sounded very reasonable when i was a lost sinner.
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lesjude
Guest
That makes no sense to any sinner unless it is made real to him by the Holy Spirit which you, I, nor any human can do.
A
Abiding
Guest
Well no kidden sherlock....who would ever think God isnt involved in salvation?
Doesnt mean that He didnt give us a rational mind then used it in drawing us.
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lesjude
Guest
Those that say with every eye bowed and head closed just slip up your hand while the choir sings endlessly "Almost Persuaded" or "Just As I Am". Then if some one does happen to, usually a "church" member already, they have them say the sinners prayer which is nowhere found in the Bible. Then they are required to become a church member, come as often as they can, put 10% in the plate, and be involved in the religious programs of the "church" waiting to die or go up through a hole in the sky. All this is very rational and quite religious but has nothing to do with salvation or discipleship.
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lesjude
Guest
Exactly. You were drawn by the Holy Spirit or you would have NEVER seen this as one bit rational. It was the foolishness of preaching that the Holy used not your reason.
This one here proves my point! God uses men, things, His creation foremost, and the Spirit. I'm not disputing that this is all a work of God. For even sound reasoning is a work of God.
Don't forget verse 64:
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
This is the point I'm trying to make, that God knows our hearts and who would and would not choose him, thus He chooses us according to His pre-knowledge of our free-will, not out of a ambiguous line up.
I didn't think this tread was about predestination. I had up to my head with this debate. I don't wish to partake in it any longer. I thought this was about how reason can bring about faith. I know reason by itself can't, but sound reason and the power of the Holy Spirit can, because God can use anything he wants.
ok then, just sit back and do nothing. Let the Holy Spirit do on His own. I'm sure the HS can do it, for He can raise up children of Abraham from stones.
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lesjude
Guest
No, God did not look down history and choose those who would choose Him. That would be a work by the person and not sovereign grace. Sinners will ALWAYS choose to continue sinning as a free will choice. They hear the general call of the gospel and ALWAYS reject it UNLESS they receive effective grace and then they will receive and believe because they are God's predestined elect before the foundation of the earth. As you said God knows them. That is because He chose them sovereignly before creation. The Bible teaches nothing else. If grace is not sovereign it is not grace but dependent on a choice of men.
No reason is "sound" to a sinner.
oh, does that make him right just because he said it.... Why would Peter say this;
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;(1 Peter 3:15)???
Some other verses to consider:
Colossians 4:6
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
Proverbs 22
20 Have I not written to you excellent things
Of counsels and knowledge,
21 That I may make you know the certainty of the words of truth,
That you may answer words of truth
To those who send to you?
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lesjude
Guest
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Abiding
Guest
Im sorry your wrong and right. Alot of the things the church does or has done
in trying to follow the instructions in scripture have worked and led to salvation.
Not for all. Sure the tares will be sown in, or false confessions. So.
You getting cynical about it dont mean much.
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Abiding
Guest
Well of coarse i was. Ive already said that God uses our rational mind.
Why wouldnt He He made it didnt He?
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lesjude
Guest
No, because only God knows before hand who His elect are. We are to preach, pray, intercede, and do what Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 say at every opportunity, walk in Bible faith, while living Matthew 5, 6, and 7 before the world and God so the elect will see, hear and respond. And the others will not be able to say they did not hear.
oh really.
tell me what salvation and discipleship look like lesjude.
skip salvation....go directly to discipleship.
X out church i guess.
X out being cheerful givers
X out realizing one dies
X out being comforted or aware that being absent from the body is present with the Lord
so whatya got for discipleship then lesjude.
But our knowledge of the spiritual is not based on our(or anyone elses) natural reasoning and logic is it?
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cor2:13&14
I came to you in weakness and fear and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise or persuassive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirits power, so that your faith might not rest on mens wisdom but on the Spirits power
1Cor2:4&5
If reasononig and logic could understand the Gospel, then every theologian and scholar and 'wise man' would accept the Gospel of grace-but many don't
And, just to add
Jesus said:
I praise you Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes Father, for this was your good pleasure
Luke 10:21