Obama's call for gay rights makes history

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Ten years ago my daughter tried to tell me the GLBTQ community was likening their 'oppression'
to the American civil rights experience.
I found it hard to believe at first (yes, my life is that sheltered)
but the moment I accepted it I realized this would be extrapolated to
those who want to have sex with children, (:( )
and then animals, and hey! anything goes.

If we as believers blind ourselves to what's happening in the world, we and those around us lose.
Not so much because we then have no influence on the world at large,
but because we then cease to be open to the (God given) ability to influence our neighbor.

There's a whole agenda at work out there that does have to be pieced together.
The leaven of sin is at work, too, and like all yeast, it grows best in the right environment.
Our governments are working hard to provide that environment, never doubt it,
motivated by something else...
 
debate with whom for what purpose?

Debate with whoever wants to debate an issue with me. Keep up, zone. The purpose? To clear up some cruel misinterpretations of scriptural texts that are being used to demean and dehumanize other people. Savvy?

christians know what it all means.

Baloney! Too many Christians are mere sponges. They soak up what they are told by others. So did I. Now I know better.

and so do all men.

Nonsensical rhetoric. Do you actually claim to know 'all men' . . .?

we either suppress that truth in unrighteousness or we agree with God.

On what? Have you read the Old Testament ...I mean, really? I hope you really mean 'we agree with Jesus' because there's some pretty gruesome stuff in the Old Testament!
 
Debate with whoever wants to debate an issue with me. Keep up, zone. The purpose? To clear up some cruel misinterpretations of scriptural texts that are being used to demean and dehumanize other people. Savvy?



Baloney! Too many Christians are mere sponges. They soak up what they are told by others. So did I. Now I know better.



Nonsensical rhetoric. Do you actually claim to know 'all men' . . .?



On what? Have you read the Old Testament ...I mean, really? I hope you really mean 'we agree with Jesus' because there's some pretty gruesome stuff in the Old Testament!

Given your treatment of the Old Testament here, I would say it is a safe assumption that the "misconceptions" you refer to happen to be details you would rather sweep under the rug.

The Old Testament is brutal, but it has a lot to say about human nature, conduct, depravity, and severity that cannot be ignored. Saul killed his thousands, David his tens of thousands.

Those who rail against it are, I suspect, more likely to disregard other historical lessons as well.
 
Debate with whoever wants to debate an issue with me. Keep up, zone. The purpose? To clear up some cruel misinterpretations of scriptural texts that are being used to demean and dehumanize other people. Savvy?



Baloney! Too many Christians are mere sponges. They soak up what they are told by others. So did I. Now I know better.



Nonsensical rhetoric. Do you actually claim to know 'all men' . . .?



On what? Have you read the Old Testament ...I mean, really? I hope you really mean 'we agree with Jesus' because there's some pretty gruesome stuff in the Old Testament!

postmodern blah blah.
 
post-postmodernism!
as in, can't we just get past that drivel? :rolleyes:

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'

el, the local presbyterian congregation got a new minister and new elders - they went to a conference in a nearby major city.
they returned to inform the assembly that:

"everything we've been told about the Bible may be questioned...it is not infallible"

my pastor was disgusted, as we had just lost some of our members to that assembly shortly before i arrived (a petty squabble over nonsense)....they are now in confusion.

a few others had departed for the Purpose-Driven formerly Baptist church (more exciting)...now lacking peace.

[a string of villages with coffee shops = news travels fast:rolleyes:]
 
One of the realities of life is that for every action there are consequences whether they are good,bad or neutral. Take an already risky and dangerous "behavior",minimize the consequences in someones mind. (Not that it has a basis in reality) Take it put a stamp of approval,legalize it and what are long term consequences? Where is anyone who is trying to make it legal talking about it? What is the long term cost in lives? What is the long term consequences in emotional health? Does one actually think things will really get better for gays and lesbians or is it going to be much worse in the long run? If the "behavior" is wrong in the first place will allowing marriage somehow make it right or better,or are there long term consequences that will in the long run be so much worse then it is in the first place?

sister -
and what you have said is true from merely a pragmatic position.
our direction clearly isn't helping anyone.

when we stop suppressing the truth that there is a God Who has fixed a day in which He will judge the world, things get a little more seriously important. Jesus paid for all sins....why do we not want His gift?

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 
sister -
and what you have said is true from merely a pragmatic position.
our direction clearly isn't helping anyone.

when we stop suppressing the truth that there is a God Who has fixed a day in which He will judge the world, things get a little more seriously important. Jesus paid for all sins....why do we not want His gift?

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Sister,

Yes and we can't leave that out either. Sin lasts but a season and then the piper must be paid. We can not leave out the eternal consequences and we need to show them Jesus,but how do they see Him when they hear groups like Westboro Baptist that keep telling them they are lost and there is no hope for them,and not only that but they laugh about it.
They need to the truth in love.
 
Sister,

Yes and we can't leave that out either. Sin lasts but a season and then the piper must be paid. We can not leave out the eternal consequences and we need to show them Jesus,but how do they see Him when they hear groups like Westboro Baptist that keep telling them they are lost and there is no hope for them,and not only that but they laugh about it.
They need to the truth in love.

images
 
I'm going to regrettably enter this hell storm.
There seems to be an erroneous connection between biblical morality and the "right" to choose. Which first, there is a difference between the "right" to choose, and the "ability" to choose. To say that people have the ability to choose is repetitive and distracting. Of course they do. It has no relation to statutes, or policies. If someone chooses to do something, it's on them. If they murder someone, yes it's against the law, but does that law prevent them from doing it? The important part of law, is sentence. It isn't the law that makes an order, it's fear of the consequences. When people choose to not fear those consequences, the law is as valid as any other ink on paper. So to say, "I won't vote against it, because everyone has the right to choose.", doesn't make any sense, as "right" declares a statutory endorsement. If no law exists supporting, then there are no "rights". Choice has no relation to law. Law only affects people psychologically, not morally.

So hopefully this washes away the thought that supporting a law to oppose Gay marriage, prevents them from having the ability to choose. Especially due to current law not having any sentence attributed to the breaking of the law. So YES, people are going to do, what they want to do. Regardless of how another person raises a stink about it.

This all being said, we are to love all of God's children. Apathy is not love, in fact it's closer to what eternity without God would be like; emptiness. "That kid just ran out into the middle of the street to play around, and a car hit them. It was their choice." It was also the choice of the observer to do nothing. The congruency of these choices resulted in the consequence. To be dismissive of someone else's choice, and then consider it support, is simply apathy. When we choose to just not care, we aren't sharing the love of Christ. Can we choose for people? Well, of course not. What we can do is be plain about where we stand. With others, let them observe Christ in us through our living testimony (not how loud we are). When they DO ask us what we think, we don't say "Do whatever you want to do, you're just going to do what you choose anyway." They know this, it doesn't help them. Say instead "These acts are sinful, and a perversion to the natural order set in place. Even so, coming to Christ washes away these and all sins, and enables you so you will not be slave to them anymore. When you observe me do what is good, it is not of my will that I do them. Instead, it is my surrender to the will of God. Only through the spirit of Christ, that now dwells in me, am I enabled."
Be plain with the truth. We do need to add salt to our words and choose them wisely, but we do not change the plainness of truth. As Christians we are not of this world, but we are in it. We are also called to love all of those in it. We do not dismiss the ones we love as trivial. When we see sin in the world it shouldn't surprise us, but it should still affect us.

To say that we don't want to force someone into something, is assuming we have the power to force someone else in the first place. Only God can change a man's heart. No law, be it written by man or God can. Only the very spirit of Christ. So the foolishness is revealed when we don't do (which includes voting) according to what God has revealed for us. God's will is going to happen one way or another. The way we vote won't change that. However, those ballots are asking US how WE feel on issues individually. When we think, "I'll just vote how everyone else will vote, because I don't want to force my opinion down their throats.", we're actually being arrogant enough to suppose that what WE say, others will do. Just treat it like someone asking a question. Answer it plainly and truthfully. You don't even need to salt your words because thankfully, paper doesn't have emotions. Politics are a thing of this world, we shouldn't bag it together with the realm of God. No principality of this world has the power to supersede his will.


The main guts of this argument, like any argument, is the assumption that what we say will change someone. Not gunna happen. What will happen, is everyone's going to be impassioned by the affront to their own pride to the point where they will take offense to anything that one person says, because they are now an enemy. Arguing against God's will is foolishness. So why humor a fool by giving them more opportunity to be foolish? Nothing comes from egging people on, but more of these 10 page plus threads that don't help anyone. I could guilt trip here, but I won't;). I've said this much, and that's all I'm going to say. If I was unclear at any point, just ask me what I meant. I'll be happy to answer.
 
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Yeah, about that... Kind of contradicts what you were arguing earlier.


"In my opinion everyone has the right to free will. You're breaking that."



So since you are now denying that everyone has a right to freedom of the will and contradicting yourself, any case you were making for equality based on personal freedom has now utterly demolished itself.

If people do not actually have the right in addition to the ability to exercise their freedom of will (which would require the reality of a moral law) and marry whoever they please, then I fail to see any grounds upon which you can claim that Jimmy is breaking anything.

If anything, without the existence of an objective moral law the only thing Jimmy would be guilty of doing is breaking some fictional construct you have created in your imagination - one that fails to correspond to any external, objective reality. In essence, if there is no such reality of the law then any positive claim you make about rights, any claims made about a duty to respect free will, or any claims about morality in general will ultimately have no basis.

If there is no moral reality then there is simply no such thing as a correct moral proposition. Implicit sentiments such as "we ought not to impose our will on others" are patently false, and in the end all that matters is one's ability to either persuade others or commit acts of violence in order to force them to submit.

Ok, you're right I did say that and I apologize for the confusion. We all have free will, that is something we're born with. I think we all have the right to free will in the sense that nobody should take it away. I apologize for the terminology I used there.

When I say rights, I mean that politically. Socially. Living in a country we all have to give up certain rights in order to get others. For example you give up the right to kill in order to receive the right to not be killed, etc. And when I said that he's taking away someone's right to marry, it bothers me. It doesn't effect any object moral law because such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I don't get it when you say that there is no basis to any of my beliefs or feelings about rights. It very much effects me and many people in this country who the gay marriage law applies to! It's as if you guys think that everything is meaningless unless all our actions can be compared to some kind of god. Humans are quite capable of forming our own moral compass without the help of any kind of supernatural force. At least I think we are.
 
To everyone bringing up the nonsense that gay marriage will lead to child and animal rape... what is wrong with you? Seriously, what is wrong with you? That is a disgusting thing to say, that someone who is gay is no different from a child molester. Do you really think the gay community supports that? Really?

Let me tell you the key difference, because apparently you can't figure this out for yourselves: two adult men and two adult women can consent. That's it, they can both agree to the relationship. Children can't. Animals can't. I have honestly never met a homosexual who is for either of those things. At least none that has said so. And can I also tell you that it makes no difference the sexual orientation of a person, straight people rape children and animals, too. Shocked? I really hope not.

It's a very ignorant thing to say, it really is. Maybe go meet some gay people. You'd be surprised how like you they are.
 
Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace
Hebrews 12:14-29 (HCSB)
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord.

15 Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many.

16 And make sure that there isn’t any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal.

17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance, though he sought it with tears.

18 For you have not come to what could be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm,

19 to the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of words. (Those who heard it begged that not another word be spoken to them,

20 for they could not bear what was commanded: And if even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned!

21 The appearance was so terrifying that Moses said, I am terrified and trembling.

22 Instead, you have come to Mount •Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels in festive gathering,

23 to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the Judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect,

24 to Jesus (mediator of a new covenanth), and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel.

25 Make sure that you do not reject the One who speaks. For if they did not escape when they rejected Him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.

26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now He has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.

27 This expression, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what is not shaken might remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us hold on to grace. By it, we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,

29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

This discussion breaks my heart. I can see the decievers lies. I can see how, that many people will fall away and follow false teachers.
Praise Be To God.
 
Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace
Hebrews 12:14-29 (HCSB)
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord.

15 Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many.

16 And make sure that there isn’t any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal.

17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance, though he sought it with tears.

18 For you have not come to what could be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm,

19 to the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of words. (Those who heard it begged that not another word be spoken to them,

20 for they could not bear what was commanded: And if even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned!

21 The appearance was so terrifying that Moses said, I am terrified and trembling.

22 Instead, you have come to Mount •Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels in festive gathering,

23 to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the Judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect,

24 to Jesus (mediator of a new covenanth), and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel.

25 Make sure that you do not reject the One who speaks. For if they did not escape when they rejected Him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.

26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now He has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.

27 This expression, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what is not shaken might remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us hold on to grace. By it, we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,

29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

This discussion breaks my heart. I can see the decievers lies. I can see how, that many people will fall away and follow false teachers.
Praise Be To God.

Just had to jump in here. What have the above scriptures got to do with Obama's call for gay rights?
 
Interpretation: I'm loathe to enter into an intellectual discussion with you so I'll instead offer you a sarcastic one-liner.

"an intellectual discussion"?

about what?
homosexuality?

look at plumbing.
not working.
bad idea.
poor design.

okay?
 
To everyone bringing up the nonsense that gay marriage will lead to child and animal rape... what is wrong with you? Seriously, what is wrong with you? That is a disgusting thing to say, that someone who is gay is no different from a child molester. Do you really think the gay community supports that? Really?

Let me tell you the key difference, because apparently you can't figure this out for yourselves: two adult men and two adult women can consent. That's it, they can both agree to the relationship. Children can't. Animals can't. I have honestly never met a homosexual who is for either of those things. At least none that has said so. And can I also tell you that it makes no difference the sexual orientation of a person, straight people rape children and animals, too. Shocked? I really hope not.

It's a very ignorant thing to say, it really is. Maybe go meet some gay people. You'd be surprised how like you they are.

grow up.
go back.
read about agenda.

get a grip.

abortion = children not human beings, etc.
gay rights = abolition of family.

learn history.
study marxism.

get your money back from liberal education.
 
And when I said that he's taking away someone's right to marry, it bothers me. It doesn't effect any object moral law because such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I don't get it when you say that there is no basis to any of my beliefs or feelings about rights. It very much effects me and many people in this country who the gay marriage law applies to! It's as if you guys think that everything is meaningless unless all our actions can be compared to some kind of god. Humans are quite capable of forming our own moral compass without the help of any kind of supernatural force. At least I think we are.

Ok, let's boil this down even more...

Just out of curiosity, if it doesn't violate any moral law, why does it bother you? And I mean, on a technicality unless a moral law exists they never had the right to marry in the first place, so nobody is taking away anything (unless you're looking at a case like California).

Now, as for the second point: yes, humans are capable of forming their own moral opinions. Person A holds the opinion that homosexual people should have the right to be married; person B's opinion is that homosexuals should be denied the ability to marry. If God does not exist, then both moral opinions are constructs of the human imagination - both "moral compasses" are ultimately man-made.

Without appealing to any objective moral reality, what makes person A's position correct and person B's position incorrect? Saying "nobody should take away free will" is an objective moral proposition that dictates how people ought to act, is it not?
 
"an intellectual discussion"?

about what?
homosexuality?

look at plumbing.
not working.
bad idea.
poor design.

okay?

Interpretation: I'm loathe to enter into an intellectual discussion with you so I'll instead offer you several sarcastic one-liners. I get it, zone. I'll just say this much ...NOWHERE in the Bible are you given permission to demean and belittle homosexuals OR your fellow forum members. But I AM open to discussing such scriptures with you if you can present them to me. Maybe I'm wrong so you have the opportunity to make me look stupid in an official capacity with the Bible as your guide. Are you game or do you prefer instead to score cheap points with your unChrist-like slurs?
 
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Thank you Tandemtruth. You have stated very well how these things ought to be approached. I have often wanted to state something like this but I am not very good with words. So again, thank you!