The reformation

Rock022 · Feb 6, 2013

Ok, so many here argue reformation happened because the catholic church is not giving you the truth. I did believed this for many years also. I am a re-vert to catholicism. The reason I did not continue with church of God assemblies, non denominational churches, open bible churches, baptist churches and protestant churches is because they all claimed the truth but no one could agree on what that truth was. They ONLY argue catholics are fake. That is the only truth they claim.

I am asking you guys what is the truth? Don't tell me the bible is the truth because every single person comes up with their own truth, and that is a divisive truth. Can you guys list the truth, what is this one truth that came from reformation?

Tintin · Feb 6, 2013

Salvation is by faith alone, not works, indulgences etc.
Salvation isn't limited to Catholics.
The Bible is for everyone, not just the educated.

Rock022 · Feb 6, 2013

Tintin said:

Nothing different so far, you forgot we are saved by grace. Catholics do not believe we are saved by works either. We believe everyone can read the bible, and you do not have to be catholic to be saved because God is the only judge.

so what are this truths? I still don't know what is the reformed truth.

Tintin · Feb 6, 2013

Yes, we are saved only by God's grace. He gives us the faith to have faith in Him. The Catholic Church was very corrupt before the Reformation, less so now.

kenisyes · Feb 7, 2013

In saying the "one truth", you make the question impossible. Truth means many different things. Even the Catholic Church tells it's members certain things are "true" (ex cathedra pronouncement), but tells non-members they are "reasonable" (apologetics). It is also at many levels. The essential: Jesus Christ and Him crucified, to the most mundane 2+2=4. It is also relevant to who is asking, such as "I need to fast more". With that caveat, I can give you a few discrepancies:

You may not believe Jesus had younger brothers and sisters.
Mary is in heaven bodily (okay, that was later).
It is okay to torture and kill over theology (Inquisition, Conquistadors, Spanish Armada, Crusades).
There were only 13 apostles.
All tongues after 1000AD are demonic.
The early Christians believed in the real presence in the eucharist.
Only a priest can forgive sins.
Peter appointed Linus Pope.
The sun goes around the earth.
and the summary: "Follow us, we do not make mistakes." Which is inherently a circular argument.

jimmydiggs · Feb 7, 2013

There's a local Catholic station that used the argument, "if you get baptists and presbyterians together and ask about baptism, they use different verses and you just can't get anywhere!"

Unfortunately this shows that the commentator knows almost nothing of which he speaks. He is ignorant of basic logic.

The same could be said of Roman Catholicism and Baptists. If you get Catholics and Baptists together, and ask about Baptism they will disagree and cite different verses, etc etc.. "Therefor scripture is useless!" Wrong. The same could be applied within the disagreements of Roman Catholics from one to another.

What you will say to that, is of course that those who reject Sacred Tradition and Catholicism as a whole is on the basis of either a misunderstanding, or an outright rejection of of Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Catholic church, and it's usage of scripture. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the vast hypocrisy that comes next. "Sola Scriptura is useless because some people disagree!"

jimmydiggs · Feb 7, 2013

Rock022 said:

Corect, but I think you are being a little dishonest, correct me if I am wrong though, please.

While he did make the mistake of saying "Salvation is by faith alone" rather than by Grace through faith, and that Justification is by faith alone, I knew what he was attempting to say and I suspect you did too. If you did not, then you are one of the less informed Roman Catholics I have met in my life thus far.

jimmydiggs · Feb 7, 2013

The epistemology of Roman Catholicism could be summarized in two words: Sola Ecclesia.

What do I mean by that?

In the Roman Catholic system of how one comes to know that which is spiritual truth, the Catholic church is the one who decides what belongs in the Canon, and what the canon says (interpretation). There would be no philosophical problem with this if it were not for the untruthful claim that scripture and tradition are equal partners, given that tradition is used to "Beat down" scripture, along with tradition's partner the "ecclesia".

Rock022 · Feb 7, 2013

Those are all great questions, I know some of the answers other I have to research. But in having one truth the catholic church can have the same teaching in China, India, Australia, America ext.

I did participated in many protestant churches and other non denominational churches all claiming the truth, but like I said: What truth? Every person says the reformation showed everyone the truth. I have not seen this truth. Do not turn this around to catholics this or catholics that, we have one truth, and if someone goes his own way we can correct them.

By the way Jimmy the catholic church accepts trinitarian baptisms from the protestant church and the orthodox church, one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. So the comment you heard was a personal comment not a teaching from the church.

FORHISGLORY · Feb 7, 2013

The reformation was a time(16th century)when there was a rediscovery of the biblical gospel. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Catholic church believes that salvation is Christ plus the sacraments. This is adding to the biblical gospel. The biblical truth is discovered by divine revelation(Matthew 16).Jesus told Peter: Flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven. God the Father reveals His Son(Jesus Christ) to those He has chosen before the foundation of the world(Eph.1). The Scriptures are the special revealation of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God(Romans 10:17). A true christian is one saved by the grace of God(Eph.2:8-9). God awakens the sinner from death(Eph.2:1). God makes the sinner alive in Christ(Eph.2). The Roman Catholic Church avocates another gospel(Galatians 1). I perfer the biblical gospel.

Rock022 · Feb 7, 2013

FORHISGLORY said:

No brother Luther was not revealed by God that you are saved by grace, Luther was a catholic monk who read a catholic book which he learned about grace but ran with that and forgot the rest of the teachings. Yes we are saved by grace there is no doubt about it. I can not explain this for you to understand because when I roamed the protestant churches in search for Christ I never found Him like you found Him. But I can let you hear this explained by a protestant convert who knows both sides. The way this guy explains it might be reasonable to you.

Click on the listen button.
Faith and Works | Catholic Answers

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

I've never heard of this new invention "sola ecclesia" and could not find it in the catechism of the catholic church either. If this means "In the Roman Catholic system of how one comes to know that which is spiritual truth, the Catholic church is the one who decides what belongs in the Canon, and what the canon says (interpretation)" Then I agree with you.

However this part is completely your personal bias:
the untruthful claim that scripture and tradition are equal partners, given that tradition is used to "Beat down" scripture, along with tradition's partner the "ecclesia"

It was trough the first half of this post that the Church put together the bible.

The Church came before the bible, if you want to get to technical then the Church came before the New Testament. And Catholics did not added books to the bible Luther took seven books away.

kenisyes · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

Small point of logic, possibly relevant: If this is true, then none of Matthew Mark Luke John Paul Peter James Jude were Catholic. All of these added the NT to the OT, which was the only Bible when they were born.

If that conclusion is true, then the Cath Ch came after the death of the last apostle. Does this break apostolic succession?

The point is not trivial. The 7 books Luther took away were rejected by the Jews in 195AD and hence may not have been in the OT in Jesus' time. The Bible in the form we have it, WAS fixed by the Cath Ch as you say, but there is some ground for saying that it is not the same Bible as was used by Jesus and the 12 and Paul.

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

Well to know who came first the church or the bible all we need to do is look at the first converts what did they do and look at St Paul.

The first converts where converted by who? St Peter.

When? At pentecost Acts 2.

What did they do? They devoted themselves to the apostles teachings and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers. It does not say they devoted themselves to the scriptures.

First converts to what? The church.

What is the church? The body of Christ. Colossians 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church"

Who was persecuting the church? Saul who became St Paul and is believed to have latter written 13 or 14 books of the 27 New testament books Acts 8. "But Saul was ravaging the church"

kenisyes · Feb 11, 2013

We need to be so careful with the term "church". When Catholics use it, they sometimes mean the "universal church", sometimes the "Catholic church", and sometimes the nearby parish. Protestants use only the first and last of these, but substituting a term like "congregation" for "parish".

Actually the (universal) church had been around at Mt. Sinai, if you believe Acts 7:38 literally. Now, that WAS before any of the Bible (the first part of the OT was written down by Moses during/after the Mt. Sinai enounter). So now we have a third possible use, complicating the question even further. When did the Catholic Church start?

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

kenisyes said:

The catholic church began at Christ crucifixion. The church was not universal before this moment. It required the greatest sacrifice to become universal. If we are to get technical, I could say the church began at creation. But which church we are talking about here? The Catholic of course. People think that the Catholic church teaches you will die outside of the Catholic church, not so. A well taught Catholic knows the truth, we call you the separated brothers. Separated in the sense that you left us but we still love you and your good qualities. When we pray for the church we pray for the whole Body of Christ Catholics and not Catholics.

What Catholics believe you can benefit from our church, the fullness of Christ mystery. Do you need to know the whole mystery of Christ to be saved? No, you need to be full of Love. It is by the grace of God we are saved. If you have never heard the word of God, or you were feed the wrong word but you do all out of love, your set. all you need is grace. However if you hear the truth and by your own will go against this truth, meaning it is your will not His. I do not think your going to make it.

GRA · Feb 11, 2013

kenisyes said:

Small point of logic, possibly relevant: If this is true, then none of Matthew Mark Luke John Paul Peter James Jude were Catholic. All of these added the NT to the OT, which was the only Bible when they were born.

If that conclusion is true, then the Cath Ch came after the death of the last apostle. Does this break apostolic succession?

The point is not trivial. The 7 books Luther took away were rejected by the Jews in 195AD and hence may not have been in the OT in Jesus' time. The Bible in the form we have it, WAS fixed by the Cath Ch as you say, but there is some ground for saying that it is not the same Bible as was used by Jesus and the 12 and Paul.

Constantine "created" Catholicism (a "mixture" of Christianity, Judaism, and Paganism) after 300 A.D.

Nobody was Catholic before 300+ A.D.

.

kenisyes · Feb 11, 2013

Rock says: "The catholic church began at Christ crucifixion."

GRA says: "Nobody was Catholic before 300+ A.D."

No comment at this time. Just pointing it out.

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

After Christ crucifixion salvation was opened to all. By Jesus dying for our sins He opened heavens to all who go to Him. It became universal, later the word catholic which means universal was used and it is still in use today. People separated themselves from the catholic "universal" church for various reasons. Then they came up with names to distinct themselves from the Catholic "universal" church. The word christians was not used until much time had passed. Acts 11 right? Saul who became Paul was not an apostle yet until chapter 8 of Acts. If Saul persecuted the church, then the church was already established before the use of the word christians. If I use you reasoning then the church must not be christian initially.

Tommy4Christ · Feb 11, 2013

Salvation IS NOT by faith alone, you must throw out the book of James and follow the heritick Martin Luther to believe that lie!

The reformers totallY changed the gospel, and added their own words, throw out all the reformed errors and teachers, and follow the early church teachings, where repentance and faith were established, and originai sin, penal sub, osas, Calvinism ect, were NOT TAUGHT BY THE EARLY CHURCH!

TheSubstance and Evidence of Faith!

Now faith is the substance of thingshoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained agood testimony. Heb11:1
For in it the righteousness of Godis revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live byfaith.”Rom 1:17
The Law of Faith, Rom3:27
1) Faith Establishes and Upholds the Law of God! Rom3:31,
2) Faith Walks in Righteous Requirements of law, Rom8:1-4
3) Faith Circumcises the heart and WORKS by Love! Gal5:6,6:15
4) The Law is NOT Abolished! Matt5:17-20
The Example of Faith, Abraham, Rom4:1-4
1) He Walked in the Steps of Faith, Rom4:12
2) He Did the Works/ Deeds of Faith, John8:39
3) He Performed the Obedience of Faith! Heb6:13-15,10:35-36, 11:8
4) He was Declared Righteous by his Faith, Rom4:19-22
The Dynamic of Faith……The Obedient Heart of Love! Rom6
1) You OBEY from the heart, Rom6:16-17
2) You Receive Grace for Obedience to Faith! Rom1:5
3) Eternal Life given to those who OBEY! Heb5:9
4) You Endure to End by Faith
5) Purify your heart by Obedience, 1Pet1:22
Boasting of Works! (Hearers not Doers!)
1) The Boasting was in Keeping the Law outwardly, but notInwardly, Rom2:17,23
2) Lest anyone Should Boast, Eph2;8-9, Is speaking of Thesekinds of Works (outwardly performed)
3) Purpose of Law not to Justify, but Expose the sin.Rom7:7-12, Gal3:19-25
4) Law Must be Upheld, but IN THE HEART! Heb8:10-11
The Works of Faith:
(not as to merely produce pious actsor religious form)
1) It Works to Produce GODLY Behavior! Titus2:11-14
2) It Works to PURIFY the heart of sin! 1Pet1:22, Acts15:9,
3) It Works to Produce the FRUIT of the Spirit! Eph5:9-10,Gal5:22-24
4) It Works as to remain Steadfast & Enduring to theend, Rom2:7
The Law of Faith usesthe WORD of God to WORK in you who believe!Since you have OBEYEDfrom the heart, as stated in scripture, with the full knowledge that Jesus hascommanded you to OBEY Him (If you love Him) & Make every effort to Enter bythe Narrow Gate, (Luke13:24, John14:15) You have effectively moved beyond the'faith of devils' (Js2:19, the devils believe & tremble) into a Path ofOBEDIENT Faith that will endure to the end!
The Work of Faith WithPower! 2Thessd1:11
1) Working Together with Him, 2Cor6:1
2) Restored to True Holiness and Righteousness, Eph4:22-24
3) Walking in Power of His Might, Eph 6:10
4) Working Out Salvation! Phil2:11-12 (working to attain a goal!)
(toperform, accomplish, achieve, to work out i.e. to do that from which somethingresults)
The Righteousness of Faith, Rom10:1-5 end of law for righteousness.

Doing the Right thing by Faith, 1John3:7-12)
Producing the Fruit of Righteousness, James3:13-18
Exceeding that of Scribes and Pharisees, Matt5:20
The More Excellent Sacrifice! Heb 11:4
The Romans 7 Lie: Rom7:14-25

Speaking of the Un-regenerate heart, Sold Under Sin, The Carnal Mind inControl.
Christian is Free from Bondage of Sin, Spiritual, notCarnal.
The law is Being Established, Upheld by Faith, not Violated Daily
Walking in Spirit, not Flesh.
There is therefore now nocondemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to theflesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in ChristJesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law couldnot do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son inthe likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do notwalk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom8:1-4
Who is Fulfilling RighteousRequirements of law? Christ or YOU?
Who is Violating the Law daily inthought, word and deed?
The Hard Evidence: Rom 7:24
Paul uses another Very powerfulillustration in the Word, ‘Captivity’. Here he is eluding to acity reduced by a storming army, who had laid Siege to the inhabitance, reducedthem to starvation, launched their attack and carried off the survivors into anirresistible Captivity. The Word he uses is the EXACT same word Christ used toDescribe the final ruin of the Jews under Roman dominance. When they would becarried away into captivity and their nation trampled by the Gentiles.(Luke21:24, 2Cor10:5)
The ‘Wretched man’ herefers to in Verse 24, ‘O wretched man that I am!” Is another illustrationportraying what happens to the Roman Prisoners taken into bondage after theSiege. It was a custom among tyrants in those days to Chain the survivors to aRotting Corpse from the battlefield and force him to carry the dead body aboutuntil he also died a slow and miserable death! (used in Rev3:17 to church)
NONE of this Language is usedAnywhere in Scripture to Describe Christians!
How could you be Captive to sin, inthis manner, and ‘sin’ not have Dominion over you?
Same Attempt Made in 1Tim1:15,“Chief of Sinners!”
But this Clearly Speaks of FORMERTimes and the VERY Next Passage says his Life was a PATTERN to all believers.How could he be an example if he was sinning all the time?
NOTHING in Scripture Condones sinfulconduct or assumes sin to be a foregone conclusion in the Believers life. Everyattempt falls Flat when you examine the Facts! www.standingthegap.org

The reformation

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Tintin

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kenisyes

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FORHISGLORY

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kenisyes

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GRA

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