God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
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zone said:everyone spins it how they like?
does everyone means everyone?
alright.
i'll take some time and consider that faith is not a gift from God.
what?
what's the deal?
i meant what i asked.
does everyone include you?
do you spin it also.
and i also meant what i said: i will take some time to consider that faith is not a gift.
that means just what it says.
i'll study what i can which says faith is not a gift.
i want to get it right.
your suggestion that i'm playing around or having fun (at your expense??) is a little concerning.
might want to review your own posts Mike
anyways.
maybe i'm totally wrong and faith is not a gift.
i'll be looking into it.
does everyone means everyone?
alright.
i'll take some time and consider that faith is not a gift from God.
what?
what's the deal?
i meant what i asked.
does everyone include you?
do you spin it also.
and i also meant what i said: i will take some time to consider that faith is not a gift.
that means just what it says.
i'll study what i can which says faith is not a gift.
i want to get it right.
your suggestion that i'm playing around or having fun (at your expense??) is a little concerning.
might want to review your own posts Mike
anyways.
maybe i'm totally wrong and faith is not a gift.
i'll be looking into it.
A
I see a big change around 350-450 and creeds and confessions i agree were for different
reasons. So my point is that the later creeds added beliefs that were not in earlier creeds
or confessions. So you cant say that what is considered today as essentials wernt in the
earlier creeds.
So to say back to the first christian communities you have to say free will. And stay free will
till about 350-450.
reasons. So my point is that the later creeds added beliefs that were not in earlier creeds
or confessions. So you cant say that what is considered today as essentials wernt in the
earlier creeds.
So to say back to the first christian communities you have to say free will. And stay free will
till about 350-450.
A
Not at all against scripture, only against your understanding of same:
God didn't have to wait for us to "do our part" in order to justify us. He didn't have to wait for us to use some "ability" to profess faith. He did all this work while we were still dead in our sins. Regeneration equals being resurrected, that is being raised from the dead. It is all a work in Christ Jesus, for His people. Faith being the instrument - NOT condition - where this gift is received.
This is amazing grace!
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Whats the difference between the instrument and a condition?
And how does it compare to:
Hebrews 11:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, andthat He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
And how could this be if faith comes after regeneration? when it would not only contridict
Hebrews it wouldnt seem to even be necessary.
E
just because you do not buy into it does not mean it is not so.. So instead of showing me how I erred. you just say I am wrong. talk about an ad hominem.. how should I react?
there has never ben an argument here. so not sure what you mean. He said they have no excuse.. no one will have an excuse. how else can you interpret this? he surely is not talking about those who are his children.
E
whats up is I grow tired of posts with just a bunch of verses posted, with no content.. we all get on skinski for doing this.. should we be doing the same? We are supposed to be discussing Gods work (in here free will vs election) and just cutting and pasting abunch of verses does not help prove our points.
No ad hominem at all. I just used your own rhetoric. You say that people follow "men" and their interpretation. But you are also a man and have the same Bible as us all, and you also have to make an interpretation. So we're on equal terms, OK?
Now, I asked how you can squeeze in "the whole world" in Romans 1. Do you mean that what Paul describes there is an universal address? This is how all men are?
Now, I asked how you can squeeze in "the whole world" in Romans 1. Do you mean that what Paul describes there is an universal address? This is how all men are?
The earliest creeds didn't contain as much as the later ones...that doesn't mean that beliefs were "added" by way of changing beliefs...the necessity to expound on some things came as different parties disputed what was already believed. The deity of Christ and the Trinity were early disputed by sectarians, thus the need to reiterate and underline what was the accepted and received doctrine.
When and how is "free will" mentioned in these creeds and confessions?
And, when or if "free will" is spoken of by the early fathers, do you just assume that it would be understood the same way that say arminianism would define same?
When and how is "free will" mentioned in these creeds and confessions?
And, when or if "free will" is spoken of by the early fathers, do you just assume that it would be understood the same way that say arminianism would define same?
Well, a condition in this setting is something someone has to fulfil, either you or another person. In this case another person has fulfilled the condition. An instrument is in this setting a means or a tool wherewith you receive this something. In this case what this person has fulfilled. It is charged to your account.
As for Heb.11:6, you might want to stress "he who comes to God". This scripture must of course be understood in the light of all other scriptures that talk about what it takes for man to come to God. It cannot collide with these scriptures, but must fully harmonize with them.
So, what did Jesus teach about what it takes to come to Him and how it happens? Does it look much like it is within the reach of possibility for each and every man if he just wills it?
As for Heb.11:6, you might want to stress "he who comes to God". This scripture must of course be understood in the light of all other scriptures that talk about what it takes for man to come to God. It cannot collide with these scriptures, but must fully harmonize with them.
So, what did Jesus teach about what it takes to come to Him and how it happens? Does it look much like it is within the reach of possibility for each and every man if he just wills it?
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okay EG.
as for the passages posted i think (?) you may be objecting to, i see the point in posting them....they are posted in response to the flow of the discussion and are posted to reflect what the other person is trying to convey. they certainly help me see the other's point. my own reasoning through what i think they say and mean at some point can (hopefully if i stop dragging my knuckles) be altered or i can be enlightened not by what the other is saying as much as i what i will actually see in the passages posted.
i get fed up when there no passages posted to underscore what we are saying.
at some point opinion and intepretation have to have something backing them.
i know you know this. this is a bible study...i'm currently using passges that have been posted to do a comparison of views study. that's why i found them helpful.
i just thought the comparison one of particular member to another particular member was highly inappropriate since (i at least) consider one to be extremely heretical. so perhaps i took offense for the first member's sake on that ground. it had nothing to do with me...but nevertheless, there you have it.
in any case, this is a new day.
i hope to do better today than i did yesterday.
love zone
as for the passages posted i think (?) you may be objecting to, i see the point in posting them....they are posted in response to the flow of the discussion and are posted to reflect what the other person is trying to convey. they certainly help me see the other's point. my own reasoning through what i think they say and mean at some point can (hopefully if i stop dragging my knuckles) be altered or i can be enlightened not by what the other is saying as much as i what i will actually see in the passages posted.
i get fed up when there no passages posted to underscore what we are saying.
at some point opinion and intepretation have to have something backing them.
i know you know this. this is a bible study...i'm currently using passges that have been posted to do a comparison of views study. that's why i found them helpful.
i just thought the comparison one of particular member to another particular member was highly inappropriate since (i at least) consider one to be extremely heretical. so perhaps i took offense for the first member's sake on that ground. it had nothing to do with me...but nevertheless, there you have it.
in any case, this is a new day.
i hope to do better today than i did yesterday.
love zone
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E
The catholics use the "history" excuse too/ As did the jews. I think it is dangerous to try to base our beliefs on what happened almost 2000 years ago, as much of what we would have had would have been destroyed by the roman church.
As I have said many times. God will hold me responsible for what I believe, He is not going to give me a get out of jail free card if I follow men 2000 years ago and they got it wrong.. And again, using this argument, the jews were right, and Christ was wrong, because Christ did not follow the history of the jews (non biblical) where the jews did..
Well considering I just said I found some flaws in the doctrines I was brought up with. so studied to see what Scripture said and changed my beliefs, so this should have answered your question
lol.. Again, do we do as the catholics do, Do we do as the jews did? thinking like this God Christ crucified, and the very people he have the word to did it because they followed traditions and not the word of God..
Forgive me if I refuse to buy into this false premise and risk falling as the jews did
E
Or against your misunderstanding of the same. What makes you more right than me?
Scripture would disagree, we are justified BY (through the means of) Faith.. which means before we had faith, we were still dead in sin. There is no way you can get out of this one.
What ability? who do you think gave us, and every man who ever lived the ability to have faith? is it of our own ability, or did God give us the ability? You would understand this clearly if you did not try to twist things around and try to make faith something it is not..
1. Regeneration is being quickened or being made alive, So sorry, it does mean resurrected from dead (spiritual) to life (spiritual). If we are not spiritually ressurected from death to life. then we are still dead in our sin.
2. It is all the work of Christ. The word (logos) speaks of him, proves who he would be, proves what he would do. Proves when he would do it. Is a witness to what he did, and is a witness to what happened after he left..The HS convicts us of sin righteousness and judgement. Thus giving us the means (through the word and conviction of the HS) to say yes or say no to the grace gift God wants to give us.
3. Faith is an instrument, your right. But without it, there is no salvation, and until it happens we are still dead in sin.
Amazing Grace is the fact that we have been given the opportunity to be saved in the first place. Non of us deserve it.. And non of us can ever deserve it, no matter how hard we work. we will still be rightly condemned if left to our own. That is grace!
Scripture would disagree, we are justified BY (through the means of) Faith.. which means before we had faith, we were still dead in sin. There is no way you can get out of this one.
What ability? who do you think gave us, and every man who ever lived the ability to have faith? is it of our own ability, or did God give us the ability? You would understand this clearly if you did not try to twist things around and try to make faith something it is not..
1. Regeneration is being quickened or being made alive, So sorry, it does mean resurrected from dead (spiritual) to life (spiritual). If we are not spiritually ressurected from death to life. then we are still dead in our sin.
2. It is all the work of Christ. The word (logos) speaks of him, proves who he would be, proves what he would do. Proves when he would do it. Is a witness to what he did, and is a witness to what happened after he left..The HS convicts us of sin righteousness and judgement. Thus giving us the means (through the word and conviction of the HS) to say yes or say no to the grace gift God wants to give us.
3. Faith is an instrument, your right. But without it, there is no salvation, and until it happens we are still dead in sin.
Amazing Grace is the fact that we have been given the opportunity to be saved in the first place. Non of us deserve it.. And non of us can ever deserve it, no matter how hard we work. we will still be rightly condemned if left to our own. That is grace!
E
Fulfilled in me? where do you get this stuff?
Paul said we are saved through grace. by Faith not works. Faith is apposed to works. Your trying to twist it to mean something else.
Your wrong in so many ways.
1. If I did not believe all the conditions were met. I could not possibly have faith in Christ alone. I would instead chose to add to the gospel. or outright deny the gospel and chose to make my own gospel
2. The very fact that I do believe Christ finished the work of salvation is the basis of my hope and faith in Christ.
again.. Your trying to twist what the word faith means and add to it something which is not there.
Again, tell me. How can I boast when my COMPLETE TRUST and ASSURANCE lies all in Christ and not in myself?
I agree. we are quickened to life, and THEN comes the fruit.
The problem is you skipped what made us alive in Christ in the first place.
Why are we dead? sin
How can we be made alive while still dead in sin? we can't
What makes us alive? Justification.
What makes us justified? FAITH IN CHRIST.
First comes the gospel. Then comes repentance. then comes faith, then comes justification which brings about regeneration. Finally comes the fruit of our faith.
It can be no other way.
Thats funny, James disagrees with you. We can believe and still not be saved, Because we do not have faith. many people believe. Even arminians and other people who do not place full trust in Christ believe. According to what you just said, they could not believe. it would be impossible.
Paul said we are saved through grace. by Faith not works. Faith is apposed to works. Your trying to twist it to mean something else.
Your wrong in so many ways.
1. If I did not believe all the conditions were met. I could not possibly have faith in Christ alone. I would instead chose to add to the gospel. or outright deny the gospel and chose to make my own gospel
2. The very fact that I do believe Christ finished the work of salvation is the basis of my hope and faith in Christ.
again.. Your trying to twist what the word faith means and add to it something which is not there.
Again, tell me. How can I boast when my COMPLETE TRUST and ASSURANCE lies all in Christ and not in myself?
I agree. we are quickened to life, and THEN comes the fruit.
The problem is you skipped what made us alive in Christ in the first place.
Why are we dead? sin
How can we be made alive while still dead in sin? we can't
What makes us alive? Justification.
What makes us justified? FAITH IN CHRIST.
First comes the gospel. Then comes repentance. then comes faith, then comes justification which brings about regeneration. Finally comes the fruit of our faith.
It can be no other way.
Thats funny, James disagrees with you. We can believe and still not be saved, Because we do not have faith. many people believe. Even arminians and other people who do not place full trust in Christ believe. According to what you just said, they could not believe. it would be impossible.