-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Re: You have nothing...
I know that Christ, John and Paul were not Equal Trinitarians Bowman
Your whole argument is based on the theological extrapolations of the little grey calls, for you have to ignore the plainest of scripture on this subject, and therefore try and bog it down by turning to the Greek/original manuscripts when you have no answer to what is placed before you
I know that Christ, John and Paul were not Equal Trinitarians Bowman
Your whole argument is based on the theological extrapolations of the little grey calls, for you have to ignore the plainest of scripture on this subject, and therefore try and bog it down by turning to the Greek/original manuscripts when you have no answer to what is placed before you
Last edited:
Re: You have nothing...
You see Bowman, the ministers from the pulpits will not preach what you and a few others do on the internet(not in the uk anyway, and I doubt many in the US either) And well over 90% of Trinitarian churchgoers would shake their heads at the pronouncements you and some others make on this website.
You see Bowman, the ministers from the pulpits will not preach what you and a few others do on the internet(not in the uk anyway, and I doubt many in the US either) And well over 90% of Trinitarian churchgoers would shake their heads at the pronouncements you and some others make on this website.
Re: You have nothing...
What is the point in me quoting any scripture to you, I saw what you do last night, refuse to accept it and try and bog the discussion down by turninig to the Greek/original manuscruipts. To be fair to you, you are not the only one. But you have to somehow deflect frrom the plain scripture that stands against you, don't you?
Go ahead and keep posting Trinitarian rendered English translations...and then try to tell us that it supports your non-trinitarian world-view...we love it!
H
Jesus baptism is a great example. Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended on him and God the Father spoke audibly so those there heard him say, "This is my beloved Son in who I am well pleased" after that the Holy Spirit led Jesus to the wilderness where he was tempted by Satan for 40 days. He was tempted as much as any human without sin. What is your question about? Do you doubt the diety of the 3 persons of God. The Bible is quite clear that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit each is God and are one.
G
First, just let me say that I am a Trinitarian. And while I maintain that Genesis 18 and 19 (which you refer to) does teach that there are at least two Divine Persons who are present, both of whom are identified as YHWH, I, however, reach my conclusion on a totally different basis from yours. First, allow me to say that my position maintains that no one has ever seen the Father (John 1.18, 6.46). Thus, someone other than the Father was dealing directly with Israel's prophets and past experiences.
With that in mind, consider Genesis 18.1 where three "men" appear before Abraham, two of which are identified as angels (Genesis 19.1), and one is identified as the Holy One, YHWH (Genesis 18.1, 13, 17, 20, 23, 26). The two angels are sent down to Sodom (v. 16), and not soon after conversing with Abraham, YHWH comes down from this place where He had previously met with Abraham, towards Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18.21). And it is this One who it is written of, "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven" (Genesis 19.24). Note that there are two that are identified as YHWH, one whom is clearly walking the earth, speaking with and to Abraham, eating and drinking, and then there is another in the heavens. This can not and is not an example of YHWH addressing Himself in the third person, for this is not YHWH speaking, but Moses' account of God acting out His wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah, and that from another. What's so breathtaking are the parallels to Genesis 19.24 that also speak of another identified as God whom destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah,
Notice something particularly with Amos 4, where YHWH uses personal pronouns of Himself, "I gave" (v. 6), "I withheld" (v. 7), "I smote" (v. 9), "I sent" (v. 10), "I slew" (v. 10), "I made" (v. 10), "I overthrew" (v. 11). It would be totally inconsistent to abruptley begin speaking in the third Person to refer to Himself in verse 11, where He says, "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
With that in mind, consider Genesis 18.1 where three "men" appear before Abraham, two of which are identified as angels (Genesis 19.1), and one is identified as the Holy One, YHWH (Genesis 18.1, 13, 17, 20, 23, 26). The two angels are sent down to Sodom (v. 16), and not soon after conversing with Abraham, YHWH comes down from this place where He had previously met with Abraham, towards Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18.21). And it is this One who it is written of, "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven" (Genesis 19.24). Note that there are two that are identified as YHWH, one whom is clearly walking the earth, speaking with and to Abraham, eating and drinking, and then there is another in the heavens. This can not and is not an example of YHWH addressing Himself in the third person, for this is not YHWH speaking, but Moses' account of God acting out His wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah, and that from another. What's so breathtaking are the parallels to Genesis 19.24 that also speak of another identified as God whom destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah,
“I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the LORD. "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the LORD. (Amos 4.10-11)
"'Therefore the desert creatures will live there along with the jackals; The ostriches also will live in it, and it will never again be inhabited or dwelt in from generation to generation. As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors,' declares the LORD, 'No man will live there, nor will any son of man reside in it.'" (Jeremiah 50.39-40)
"Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold. And their bows will mow down the young men, they will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, nor will their eye pity children. And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride, will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." (Isaiah 13.17-19)
"'Therefore the desert creatures will live there along with the jackals; The ostriches also will live in it, and it will never again be inhabited or dwelt in from generation to generation. As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors,' declares the LORD, 'No man will live there, nor will any son of man reside in it.'" (Jeremiah 50.39-40)
"Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold. And their bows will mow down the young men, they will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, nor will their eye pity children. And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride, will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." (Isaiah 13.17-19)
Notice something particularly with Amos 4, where YHWH uses personal pronouns of Himself, "I gave" (v. 6), "I withheld" (v. 7), "I smote" (v. 9), "I sent" (v. 10), "I slew" (v. 10), "I made" (v. 10), "I overthrew" (v. 11). It would be totally inconsistent to abruptley begin speaking in the third Person to refer to Himself in verse 11, where He says, "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
Last edited:
G
Second, Jude 1.5 has very strong theological implications behind it. If you use a KJV then you probably won't see precisely what I'm talking about; however, for all you that use modern translations, you quickly see something particularly interesting: "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."
Perhaps I will go into a more lengthy, more detailed response concerning Jude 1.5 should anyone inquiry.
Perhaps I will go into a more lengthy, more detailed response concerning Jude 1.5 should anyone inquiry.
G
Sometimes I think you really just enjoy my inner geek. Needless to say, I definitely won't get to it tonight, but I'll gladly begin working on it tomorrow after I get home. There's certainly a lot of material to cover just on this one verse, but the prime focus will be: (1) to observe the variant data ["Lord" vs. "Jesus" vs. "God"], and (2) to discuss which of the variant readings is the most viable option, (3) as well as a little history on the unorthodox corruption of Scripture concerning the pre-existence of Christ. And yes, I promise, heads will roll.
I think it's more confusing to claim Christ is the one true God
Gracebeuntoyou has correctly stated no one has ever seen the Father
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John1:18
No man hath seen God at anytime
1John4:12
So what John is actually stating is , no one has seen the Father at anytime, and no one has seen God at anytime.
Christ confirms no one has seen the Father
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of GOD, he hath seen the Father
John 6:46
So John and Christ agree, no one has seen the Father, and John tells us twice, no one has seen God, could they be speaking of the same person?
Now this is eternal life, that they may know you(the Father) the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ wehom you have sent
John 17:3
More confirmation!!"
ThE Apostle Paul too:
nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), [SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1Cor8:5&6
Of course, Hopespring has John 8:24 which she believes is Christ telling people they must believe he is God(the one true God) in order to inherit eternal life. So I guess Paul, Christ Himself, and John lied.
But of course, I know that for a scholar or theologian, using strongs concordnce, or the Grenville Sharp rule(is that right
) and a host of other sources, it shouldn't be too hard to make those verses I put up mean something other than what they state
I repeat Hopespring, for you and others, this subject is perfect. You have no plain scripture(as any honesty trinitarian will admit) that states Christ is the one true God, yet I do have plain scripture that says he is not, so that means the little grey cells must come into play, the tjheological mind can go to work, which is what many excel in on websites like these
The result?
People are condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?...........
Gracebeuntoyou has correctly stated no one has ever seen the Father
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John1:18
No man hath seen God at anytime
1John4:12
So what John is actually stating is , no one has seen the Father at anytime, and no one has seen God at anytime.
Christ confirms no one has seen the Father
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of GOD, he hath seen the Father
John 6:46
So John and Christ agree, no one has seen the Father, and John tells us twice, no one has seen God, could they be speaking of the same person?
Now this is eternal life, that they may know you(the Father) the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ wehom you have sent
John 17:3
More confirmation!!"
ThE Apostle Paul too:
nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), [SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1Cor8:5&6
Of course, Hopespring has John 8:24 which she believes is Christ telling people they must believe he is God(the one true God) in order to inherit eternal life. So I guess Paul, Christ Himself, and John lied.
But of course, I know that for a scholar or theologian, using strongs concordnce, or the Grenville Sharp rule(is that right
) and a host of other sources, it shouldn't be too hard to make those verses I put up mean something other than what they stateI repeat Hopespring, for you and others, this subject is perfect. You have no plain scripture(as any honesty trinitarian will admit) that states Christ is the one true God, yet I do have plain scripture that says he is not, so that means the little grey cells must come into play, the tjheological mind can go to work, which is what many excel in on websites like these
The result?
People are condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age?...........
Last edited:
There's nothing to be gained from this Hopespring, at least Elin was honest. Although she completely agrees with you on this subject, many times in this thread she has stated there is no plain verse of scripture that states Christ is God in the entire biblie.
As you seem unable to accept that, what more can I say?
As you seem unable to accept that, what more can I say?
Let me put it this way
Can a person being led of the Holy Spirit refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life, by adding to it?
Only if the Spirit of God can contradict the word of God
In Trintarian theology that means God contradicts God and the belief collapses
The reason you in your heart condemn me(which is what you do, whether you admit it pulblically or not) is because you cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit in this matter, so you do not understand the Spiritual reality
I repeat, Arius believed Christ was divine, but you would not in truth accept him as a Christian
Who was on Christ in BODILY SHAPE/FORM when he walked this earth?
HOW can Christians be as one? What is the only way this can happen?
Jesus said when praying to the Father
That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one(John 17:22)
Can a person being led of the Holy Spirit refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life, by adding to it?
Only if the Spirit of God can contradict the word of God
In Trintarian theology that means God contradicts God and the belief collapses
The reason you in your heart condemn me(which is what you do, whether you admit it pulblically or not) is because you cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit in this matter, so you do not understand the Spiritual reality
I repeat, Arius believed Christ was divine, but you would not in truth accept him as a Christian
Who was on Christ in BODILY SHAPE/FORM when he walked this earth?
HOW can Christians be as one? What is the only way this can happen?
Jesus said when praying to the Father
That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one(John 17:22)
Last edited: