What is the Messianic Kingdom?
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A
"It was never about salvation"
Excuse me...its always been about Salvation.
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
And about the promises:
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named." 8 This means that it is NOT the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.
NO promises to the children of the flesh.
Excuse me...its always been about Salvation.
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
And about the promises:
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named." 8 This means that it is NOT the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.
NO promises to the children of the flesh.
EG - you believe the jews have been judicially blinded for 2000 years.
and that some time in the future they will have their eyes opened and be saved.
that's the they.
The Stone that crushed the Metal Man was Jesus and the Stone is becoming a mountain - the Kingdom/Church.
it's simple.
fulfilled and being fulfilled - ppl get saved and receive eternal life and on the Day enter it.
the fullness of the gentiles just means this:
Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery isa that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
7Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages inb God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.
it's spelled out clearly.
it's no longer a mystery.
the fullness of God's Family/Church/Plan/Redeemed means inclusion of gentiles.
that's all.
and if jews don't continue in unbelief (they need to hear the real Gospel), they'll be grafted in.
that's it.
it's simple.
it's right here:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:31
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
nothing (except God's Gracious Provisions for all - the just and the unjust - for this life now) is given to anyone at anytime who doesn't believe.
not Land in Palestine or anything else.
but that's just my opinion.
and that some time in the future they will have their eyes opened and be saved.
that's the they.
The Stone that crushed the Metal Man was Jesus and the Stone is becoming a mountain - the Kingdom/Church.
it's simple.
fulfilled and being fulfilled - ppl get saved and receive eternal life and on the Day enter it.
the fullness of the gentiles just means this:
Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery isa that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
7Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages inb God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.
it's spelled out clearly.
it's no longer a mystery.
the fullness of God's Family/Church/Plan/Redeemed means inclusion of gentiles.
that's all.
and if jews don't continue in unbelief (they need to hear the real Gospel), they'll be grafted in.
that's it.
it's simple.
it's right here:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:31
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
nothing (except God's Gracious Provisions for all - the just and the unjust - for this life now) is given to anyone at anytime who doesn't believe.
not Land in Palestine or anything else.
but that's just my opinion.
E
Nope. It is not. dispensationalism in its true form is old.. and is from scripture.
just because darby destroyed it.. does not mean it is not true.
the church (those who are literal children of God who will go to heaven) has always been the church, even before isreal was born..
so why you keep going here is beyond me. you act as if it is something new.. Abraham was part of the church before god even gave him his covenant. but you can't hear this. It was his knowledge of God and the promise of the savior which gave him faith to understand the covenant God gave him.. if he was not saved before. he would never have understood it.. As you like to always say!
GOOD THREAD!![/QUOTE]
yeah it is.. so far hopefully good discussion for people to see and make up their minds.
just because darby destroyed it.. does not mean it is not true.
the church (those who are literal children of God who will go to heaven) has always been the church, even before isreal was born..
so why you keep going here is beyond me. you act as if it is something new.. Abraham was part of the church before god even gave him his covenant. but you can't hear this. It was his knowledge of God and the promise of the savior which gave him faith to understand the covenant God gave him.. if he was not saved before. he would never have understood it.. As you like to always say!
anyways
GOOD THREAD!![/QUOTE]
yeah it is.. so far hopefully good discussion for people to see and make up their minds.
E
Mark 10
it's been a salvation issue for many.
unfortunately.
thinking there's been some 2000 year blinding out of mercy or some Plan B is....unspeakable.
the jews are the losers in this game.
some prop them up in their error.
and they perish in their sins.
the rabbis are not entering, and they are stopping those who might.
and we give it a pass.
i wonder why?
but anyways
this is a good day!
today is the day of salvation.
it's been a salvation issue for many.
unfortunately.
thinking there's been some 2000 year blinding out of mercy or some Plan B is....unspeakable.
the jews are the losers in this game.
some prop them up in their error.
and they perish in their sins.
the rabbis are not entering, and they are stopping those who might.
and we give it a pass.
i wonder why?
but anyways
this is a good day!
today is the day of salvation.
Thats good to know..
E
WHAT? did you not read what I posted.
funny you go off on a bunch of other passages, but do not respond to the very passages I posted.. why is this?? I try to do this for you guys, but for someone reason, I never get the same courtesy.. Just snide remarks. a long page of which has nothing to do with what was posted.. why is this?
lets try again..or is this too hard??
What does scripture say about the davidic covenant? and davids throne?
2 Sam 7: 10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,
11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your [c]descendant after you, who will come forth from [d]you, and I will establish his kingdom.
Ez 37: 24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [h]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
Look at ez 37. can it be eternity he is talking about ( a new heaven and new earth?) no.. why?? he said he will multilply them. There will be no more childbirth in heaven,, He said all the nations will know he is God.. in eternity, everyone already knew he was god. that is what got them there in the first place. those who never figure this out, are in hell at that time.. so it has to be a temporal thing on earth.
What did God say would happen?
1 Samuel, David is promised Isreal will be given their land back. Will live in peace. Will no longer fear their enemy.
2. In ez (the prophetic fulfilment shown) They will no longer live in rebellion against God (Isreal) They will live in the land God gave Jacob (not heaven, but the land of canaan) You know. the SAME LAND THEIR FATHERS LIVE IN?? He will place them and multiply them. And the nations (gentiles) will know Jesus is the Lord over all.
funny you go off on a bunch of other passages, but do not respond to the very passages I posted.. why is this?? I try to do this for you guys, but for someone reason, I never get the same courtesy.. Just snide remarks. a long page of which has nothing to do with what was posted.. why is this?
lets try again..or is this too hard??
What does scripture say about the davidic covenant? and davids throne?
2 Sam 7: 10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,
11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your [c]descendant after you, who will come forth from [d]you, and I will establish his kingdom.
Ez 37: 24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [h]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
Look at ez 37. can it be eternity he is talking about ( a new heaven and new earth?) no.. why?? he said he will multilply them. There will be no more childbirth in heaven,, He said all the nations will know he is God.. in eternity, everyone already knew he was god. that is what got them there in the first place. those who never figure this out, are in hell at that time.. so it has to be a temporal thing on earth.
What did God say would happen?
1 Samuel, David is promised Isreal will be given their land back. Will live in peace. Will no longer fear their enemy.
2. In ez (the prophetic fulfilment shown) They will no longer live in rebellion against God (Isreal) They will live in the land God gave Jacob (not heaven, but the land of canaan) You know. the SAME LAND THEIR FATHERS LIVE IN?? He will place them and multiply them. And the nations (gentiles) will know Jesus is the Lord over all.
E
Excuse me, It has never been about salvation. Unless you believe the jews, who were NATURAL descendants of Abraham were not only given the land, but eternal life at the same time.
Why go to gen 3: 15? that has nothing to do with the promise given to abraham, Issac and Jacob.!!
gen 3: 15 is the promise which saved many people before the abrahamic covenant was even given.. Your correct. that is about salvation. Most of the covenant made with abraham was not.
We are saved by believing genesis 3: 15. we are not saved by believing "in you shall all th enations of the world be blessed (which is salvic in nature as to who it applies to Christ) and t you and your descendants after you I give th eland of canaan as an ETERNAL PROMISE between me, you and your seed.
Nothing salvic there./. why do you make it salvic??
Why go to gen 3: 15? that has nothing to do with the promise given to abraham, Issac and Jacob.!!
gen 3: 15 is the promise which saved many people before the abrahamic covenant was even given.. Your correct. that is about salvation. Most of the covenant made with abraham was not.
We are saved by believing genesis 3: 15. we are not saved by believing "in you shall all th enations of the world be blessed (which is salvic in nature as to who it applies to Christ) and t you and your descendants after you I give th eland of canaan as an ETERNAL PROMISE between me, you and your seed.
Nothing salvic there./. why do you make it salvic??
E
Judicially blind? They are blind because they rejected Christ, as all people who are blind, they are blind because they have hid the truth in their heart..
well thats fine. but the they of daniel 2 and 7 are the gentile kingdoms.. So why are you trying to make it Isreal?
lets stick on context now ok??
Nope.. Rome stood for many years after Christ left this earth.. He did not destroy that kingdom.. nor did the church, it was destroyed from with in many years after Isreal was leveled.
You people amaze me./ you want me to look at a movie which says that there will be 4 kingdoms, each stronger than the other., then the last kingdom will die off, then return stronger than it was before,., be given power for 42 months,., gain control of the whole earth. only to be destroyed by Christ himself to mean that the who thing was destroyed before it the last kingdom was even seen. And that this church is what did it??
wow. ok..
again,, where is every nation bowing before Christ in the last 2000 years? never seen it happen, has not happened yet. Scripture say it will at that time,, do you believe scripture or not?
Again,, are you this blind zone?
are you telling me no gentiles were saved in the OT? for THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR YOU TO BE RIGHT!!
Isreal was SUPPOSED TO GIVE THE GENTILES THE GOSPEL. they FAILED. that is why God did what he did to them./. because they thought what God gave to them, to give to the world. was for them only..
you seem to be agreeing with them.
Palestine was only given to the natural descendants of Abraham Issac and jacob.. Not salvation.
why do you want to make it a salvic issue? again,, do you think they all were saved because they were children of Isreal?? for this is the ONLY way this covenant could be salvic.
but that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
well thats fine. but the they of daniel 2 and 7 are the gentile kingdoms.. So why are you trying to make it Isreal?
lets stick on context now ok??
Nope.. Rome stood for many years after Christ left this earth.. He did not destroy that kingdom.. nor did the church, it was destroyed from with in many years after Isreal was leveled.
You people amaze me./ you want me to look at a movie which says that there will be 4 kingdoms, each stronger than the other., then the last kingdom will die off, then return stronger than it was before,., be given power for 42 months,., gain control of the whole earth. only to be destroyed by Christ himself to mean that the who thing was destroyed before it the last kingdom was even seen. And that this church is what did it??
wow. ok..
again,, where is every nation bowing before Christ in the last 2000 years? never seen it happen, has not happened yet. Scripture say it will at that time,, do you believe scripture or not?
Again,, are you this blind zone?
are you telling me no gentiles were saved in the OT? for THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR YOU TO BE RIGHT!!
Isreal was SUPPOSED TO GIVE THE GENTILES THE GOSPEL. they FAILED. that is why God did what he did to them./. because they thought what God gave to them, to give to the world. was for them only..
you seem to be agreeing with them.
Palestine was only given to the natural descendants of Abraham Issac and jacob.. Not salvation.
why do you want to make it a salvic issue? again,, do you think they all were saved because they were children of Isreal?? for this is the ONLY way this covenant could be salvic.
but that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
E
zone; "but that's just my opinion."
seems to be my opinion and the prophets opinion alsowere on a roll i think.
thinking of rolls
how much goo do ya want?
seems to be my opinion and the prophets opinion also
were on a roll i think.thinking of rolls
Instead of being proud.. why don;t we seek to find truth, and open our eyes.. That was their mistake.
E
uh....huh?
Think about it Zone..
The abrahamic covenant gave the land of canaan as an eternal promise to all of Abrahams children through Abraham, Isaac and jacob.
When you claim this was a salvic covenant, your claiming all of these people were given salvation and the land..
Or else. it was just a land covenant, which had nothing to do with salvation.
it can not be both ways..
Got any coffee with it? I could use some.
The Scriptural interpretation given by Daniel (4:24-27) speaks of no final kingdom,
and the kingdom to which it refers (4:28-33) was, in fact, restored (4:34-36).
Your uncertain private interpetation of Da 4 disagrees with the Scriptural intepretation of it.
It is both. . .the Roman empire, and a type of Satan's kingdom opposed to the kingdom of God.
Daniel's dream of 7:1-14 is interpreted in 7:17 to refer to four earthly kingdoms, in contrast to the kingdom of God in 2:44.
Those four kingdoms were fulfilled in
3 1/2 years is simply uncertain private interpretation, and the expression can be interpreted in more than one way.
It could be a symbolic expression for the fullness of time.
In both Da (7:26) and Rev (19:19-21), as well as in 2Th 1:6-7, all referring to the second coming of Christ,
the persecution of the holy ones is terminated by the coming of Messiah.
1) Gal 4:4 and Mk 1:15 tell us the the first coming of Christ was in the fulness of time.
2) Eph 1:10 tells us that the second coming of Messiah will be in the fullnes of time.
3) And Jesus tells us in Mt 24:36, Ac 1:7 that this time is known only in the secret counsels of God (Dt 29:29).
So the expression is not necessarily a literal 3 1/2 years (as Rev 4:5 is not literal), but could be an amount of time known only to God,
"Time, times and half a time" could be a riddle for fullness of time.
(1 time X 2 times X 1/2 time = time, unknowable and the fullness of time
(1 X 2 X 1/2 = 1)
Because prophetic riddles can be understood in more than one way and, therefore, private interpretation of them is uncertain, I do not take my understanding of Scripture from prophetic riddles, but only from what is clear and certain in the word of God.
A future earthly temporal Messianic kingdom is taken from private interpretation of prophetic riddles, whose meaning is not certain, and which private interpretations contradict was is clear and certain in the word of God.
and the kingdom to which it refers (4:28-33) was, in fact, restored (4:34-36).
Your uncertain private interpetation of Da 4 disagrees with the Scriptural intepretation of it.
It is both. . .the Roman empire, and a type of Satan's kingdom opposed to the kingdom of God.
Daniel's dream of 7:1-14 is interpreted in 7:17 to refer to four earthly kingdoms, in contrast to the kingdom of God in 2:44.
Those four kingdoms were fulfilled in
- the Babylonian empire ending in 539 BC,
- the Medo-Persia empire ending in 330 BC,
- the Grecian empire ending in 63 BC,
- and the Roman empire, which ruled 10 kingdoms (v.24): Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Britain, Samartia, Pannonia, Asia, Greece and Egypt.
- the kingdom of Satan, opposed to the kingdom of God in 2:44.
- the beast (vv. 23-24) also found in Rev 12, 13, 17,
- the little horn of Da 7:8 who was Julius Caesar, a type of the anti-Christ, and who changed the set times (v.25) by adding days to the calendar, and
- the king of Da 11:36-45.
3 1/2 years is simply uncertain private interpretation, and the expression can be interpreted in more than one way.
It could be a symbolic expression for the fullness of time.
In both Da (7:26) and Rev (19:19-21), as well as in 2Th 1:6-7, all referring to the second coming of Christ,
the persecution of the holy ones is terminated by the coming of Messiah.
1) Gal 4:4 and Mk 1:15 tell us the the first coming of Christ was in the fulness of time.
2) Eph 1:10 tells us that the second coming of Messiah will be in the fullnes of time.
3) And Jesus tells us in Mt 24:36, Ac 1:7 that this time is known only in the secret counsels of God (Dt 29:29).
So the expression is not necessarily a literal 3 1/2 years (as Rev 4:5 is not literal), but could be an amount of time known only to God,
- which the narrative accounts call the "fullness of time" (Mk 1:15; Gal 4:4; Eph 1:10),
- which prophecy calls "time, times and half a time" (Da 7:25, 12:7; Rev 12:14),
- and which Jesus says is unknowable (Mt 24:36; Ac 1:7).
"Time, times and half a time" could be a riddle for fullness of time.
(1 time X 2 times X 1/2 time = time, unknowable and the fullness of time
(1 X 2 X 1/2 = 1)
Because prophetic riddles can be understood in more than one way and, therefore, private interpretation of them is uncertain, I do not take my understanding of Scripture from prophetic riddles, but only from what is clear and certain in the word of God.
A future earthly temporal Messianic kingdom is taken from private interpretation of prophetic riddles, whose meaning is not certain, and which private interpretations contradict was is clear and certain in the word of God.
That understanding of separation in God's one people (one olive tree) is taken from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.
It is not found in the teaching of the apostles, which is Jesus revelation (Heb 10:1-2) given through them, and is in fact contrary to the unity of all God's people henceforth which the NT reveals.
It is not found in the teaching of the apostles, which is Jesus revelation (Heb 10:1-2) given through them, and is in fact contrary to the unity of all God's people henceforth which the NT reveals.
E
I meant daniel 2 forgive me. so lets move to this..
babylon was a literal kingdom. Media perisa was a literal kingdom. Greece and alexander were literal kingdoms and kings. Rom was an actual kingdom... So why do you want to go to a "typology" interpretation?
In contrast? the kingdom of God in 2: 44 destroys those "5" kingdoms, and sets up his own., where do you get the compair contrast thing?
lol.. Babylon ruled many kingdoms. Ad did Media persia. As did greece as did rome.. so why are you trying to use this as an interpretation of the ten kings?
Rome was one kingdom (iron) in the itme of Christ and AD 70. then scripture said that would split into Iron and clay. The iron and clay FOLLOWS the iron.
lol. wow.. again with the typology.
Again.
Jesus came literally when prophesied
he was killed literally as prophesied
babylon came literal. as did media and persia and greece.. Just the way God said they would to daniel in literal interpretation.
Rome did also.. so should we not interpret the rest of the prophesy literally? where do we get off allegorizing prophesy?? because it doe snot fit our belief?
And private interpretation? are you roman catholic?? who made you God?
Unknowable future time? God tells us
3 1/2 years
1/2 of one week
42 months
time time and half a time
1260 days
all prophesies go together and give us a literal time of 3.5 jewish years.. And you say it is my private interpretaion?? wow