Breaking News! Man of Lawlessness revealed?

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RachelBibleStudent said:
so now christ's coming lasted more than three years?

preterism sinks to a new level of absurdity...
Click to expand...
It was a coming in judgement through war.
Yes sometimes wars and rebellions last more than three years.
Jesus presence in judgement was in the war and uprising.
 
1still_waters said:
Oh come on!

It was the temple priest system that was holding him back before the rebellion.

The Christians in Thessalonica had knowledge of the Jewish system and belief. They weren't just "Greek Christians".

Acts 17
17 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

And as we know from Acts 2, Jews from all over the world visited Jerusalem.



So yes, the believers in Thessalonica had knowledge of the temple political system. They weren't simply detached Greeks.
Click to expand...

christians in thessalonica would have understood basic temple politics...but knowing about conflicts among obscure galilean sect leaders is another story...i mean can the average american christian name the bishop of tlaxcala or why he is no longer under the archdiocese of mexico?
 
1still_waters said:
as he thought he had no antagonist to dispute the management of affairs with him--Josephus
who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship---Bible
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obviously josephus was referring to human antagonists...menahem wrongly assumed none of his rebel associates would question his actions...
this is something quite different from viewing himself as being above objects of worship...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
christians in thessalonica would have understood basic temple politics...but knowing about conflicts among obscure galilean sect leaders is another story...i mean can the average american christian name the bishop of tlaxcala or why he is no longer under the archdiocese of mexico?
Click to expand...
The temple was the very epicenter of their worship.
Yes I'm pretty sure they'd know about this stuff.

I don't suggest comparing apathetic Americans with devout pre70 AD temple centric Jews who were temple centric.
It's not even apples and oranges.
It's like apples and Fords.
 
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RachelBibleStudent said:
obviously josephus was referring to human antagonists...menahem wrongly assumed none of his rebel associates would question his actions...
this is something quite different from viewing himself as being above objects of worship...
Click to expand...
No he wasn't comparing him to people who only considered human antagonists.
He compared him to tyrants.
Tyrants think they are the ONLY rule of law.

Now the overthrow of the places of strength, and the death of the high priest Ananias, so puffed up Manahem, that he became barbarously cruel; and as he thought he had no antagonist to dispute the management of affairs with him, he was no better than an insupportable tyrant;
Click to expand...
 
Ok ok..i'm really done going back and forth..

Really i am..

mmmhmm..

*lays down the paint brush*
 
1still_waters said:
And what lie did all them Jews who rebelled believe?
They believed they would win over the Romans.
That was the lie.

It says they would believe the lie, not just the person.



They didn't believe Jesus as the Messiah. Instead they rebelled and thought they'd be delivered from the romans. That is THE LIE they believed. And as we know, in AD70, those in Jerusalem who believed that lie, they did indeed perish.

But those who believed Jesus fled the city just as Jesus had told them.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Click to expand...

paul says the coming of the man of lawlessness is in accord with the deception...

but menahem was not in accord with those who were promoting what you identify as 'the lie'...in fact they promoters of 'the lie' opposed him...

and actually as can be seen in the passage you are quoting...jesus didn't just warn his followers to flee from jerusalem...all of jesus' followers in judea were supposed to flee... the abomination of desolation was a warning to all of judea...which is why it is not a reasonable requirement that it appear before the siege of jerusalem...roman military action continued throughout judea even after the fall of jerusalem and the posting of the roman standards on temple mount which is the correct interpretation of the abomination of desolation...
 
1still_waters said:
Yes some others do kinda fit it.
But none within the timeline and period Jesus and Paul were speaking of.

But at this point I feel as if I'm entering an I'm-right-athon.

I'll let my finding speak for itself.
Those who see it will see it.
Click to expand...

you are assuming beforehand what the 'timeline and period jesus and paul were speaking of' was...

garbage in...garbage out...

or to put it more nicely...this is circular logic that is not going to convince any sensible person who is not already a preterist...
 
1still_waters said:
It was a coming in judgement through war.
Yes sometimes wars and rebellions last more than three years.
Jesus presence in judgement was in the war and uprising.
Click to expand...

well that is strange...i always assumed christ's coming would be 'like a thief in the night'...and 'as the lightning'...like the bible says...and not the slow three year ordeal you are calling his 'coming'

at this point this is even more off base than the 'halfway coming that doesn't really count' of pretribulation rapture theory...at least that 'halfway coming' is brief...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
what does the bible say jesus was referring to when he said 'this temple'?
his body

what is the body of christ today?
the church
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okay....so you have the man of lawlessness being apostate christians - plural?

the son of perdition?

or is it going to be one bad guy?
 
1still_waters said:
The temple was the very epicenter of their worship.
Yes I'm pretty sure they'd know about this stuff.

I don't suggest comparing apathetic Americans with devout pre70 AD temple centric Jews who were temple centric.
It's not even apples and oranges.
It's like apples and Fords.
Click to expand...

the temple was the center of jewish worship...that is true... however menahem's sicarii were based in galilee until the rebellion...there was little connection between them and temple...

knowing temple politics does not imply that they were familiar with galilean revolutionary sects...let alone individual leaders within such sects...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
paul says the coming of the man of lawlessness is in accord with the deception...

but menahem was not in accord with those who were promoting what you identify as 'the lie'...in fact they promoters of 'the lie' opposed him...

and actually as can be seen in the passage you are quoting...jesus didn't just warn his followers to flee from jerusalem...all of jesus' followers in judea were supposed to flee... the abomination of desolation was a warning to all of judea...which is why it is not a reasonable requirement that it appear before the siege of jerusalem...roman military action continued throughout judea even after the fall of jerusalem and the posting of the roman standards on temple mount which is the correct interpretation of the abomination of desolation...
Click to expand...
Ya know..I just can't put the paintbrush down..
YET!

paul says the coming of the man of lawlessness is in accord with the deception...

but menahem was not in accord with those who were promoting what you identify as 'the lie'...in fact they promoters of 'the lie' opposed him...
Click to expand...

Well actually he was.
The lie is that they were going to overcome the Romans.
That's what all the rebelling factions believed.

and actually as can be seen in the passage you are quoting...jesus didn't just warn his followers to flee from jerusalem...all of jesus' followers in judea were supposed to flee... the abomination of desolation was a warning to all of judea...which is why it is not a reasonable requirement that it appear before the siege of jerusalem...roman military action continued throughout judea even after the fall of jerusalem and the posting of the roman standards on temple mount which is the correct interpretation of the abomination of desolation...
Click to expand...

Actually once the standards were against the temple, it was too late. The standards went up in AD70.
It's not a warning if the city had already been invaded and fallen.

Menahem and the armies entering the land are the warning. They actually go hand in hand.
Look at how they work out in Luke and Matthew.

Luke 21
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Matt 24
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Your Roman standards happened AFTER it was surrounded. And actually once they were in it.

The surrounding of Jerusalem, and the abomination (Menaham) were the perfect warning to flee.

Menahem and the surrounding were the siren warning.
The standards were the tornado.

Saying the standards on the temple were the warning, is like saying your house that just got destroyed by the tornado is the warning that a tornado is on the way!

No the sirens that went off before the tornado arrived are the warning!
The sirens in this case are the approaching armies and Menahem and the Jewish rebellion in Jerusalem.
The standards are the tornado.
 
1still_waters said:
And what lie did all them Jews who rebelled believe?
They believed they would win over the Romans.
That was the lie.

It says they would believe the lie, not just the person.



They didn't believe Jesus as the Messiah. Instead they rebelled and thought they'd be delivered from the romans. That is THE LIE they believed. And as we know, in AD70, those in Jerusalem who believed that lie, they did indeed perish.

But those who believed Jesus fled the city just as Jesus had told them.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Click to expand...

this is pretty hard to refute still.
hmmm....

did josephus say anything about lying signs or whatever?
 
1still_waters said:
No he wasn't comparing him to people who only considered human antagonists.
He compared him to tyrants.
Tyrants think they are the ONLY rule of law.
Click to expand...

you can be a tyrant without viewing yourself as being above divinity...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the temple was the center of jewish worship...that is true... however menahem's sicarii were based in galilee until the rebellion...there was little connection between them and temple...

knowing temple politics does not imply that they were familiar with galilean revolutionary sects...let alone individual leaders within such sects...
Click to expand...

sorry, i'm learning about menahem as i go here...

"menahem's sicarii"

this is the same cult Judas came from.

they are both called the son of perdition.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
you are assuming beforehand what the 'timeline and period jesus and paul were speaking of' was...

garbage in...garbage out...

or to put it more nicely...this is circular logic that is not going to convince any sensible person who is not already a preterist...
Click to expand...
THIS GENERATION. Matthew 24:34

It's not an assumption.
It's fact.

You're going more on assumption.

I'm going off of the repeated claims of a coming judgement on that generation.
Matthew 12:45
Matthew 23:36
Matthew 24:34
 
GRRR! Why am I going back and forth?
I've been infected with CC-forum-itis.

I think a quick inoculation is needed.

HELP!
 
zone said:
sorry, i'm learning about menahem as i go here...

"menahem's sicarii"

this is the same cult Judas came from.

they are both called the son of perdition.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier.

Folks who see it will see it.
Keep digging.
It's fun outside of the historicist trench. :P

I don't know why I'm going back and forth with someone who is dug into their trench.
Actually I do know why and I need to stop!
 
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