Must Shortly Come To Pass

[Stephen63]

what words ? which ones. then maybe I can look them up in the Hebrew and get a clearer picture.

Treaty and covenant

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

Hey, lets have fun with this one. On the fourth day God created the sun and moon. A day to God is as 1000 years. So, with that in mind, If you go through all the "begats" it' approximately 4,000 years from Adam to Christ ( the fourth day). He also started His church in that same period "the fourth day". Christ is referred to the SUN of Righteousness and the light of the moon is the reflection of the sun ( the church).Then on the seventh day He rested.

Just throwing it out there have fun

 

[nathan3]

Treaty and covenant

I'll have to study that part more, seems to translate into what you said. But the Israel part is not there.

It is a fact he is being sent to deceive the whole world ( Rev. 12:9). So another thought I see; I don't see where Israel alone, is mentioned here with a treaty ?. Because it says " with many " , when he is coming to be worshiped as God to deceive ,the whole world not Israel alone. (2 thess 2:4). Anyway. I'll need to give time to read Daniel and order some studies for Daniel, which I don't have right now.

 

[Elizabeth619]

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"
This is not talking about a peace treaty. It's referring to the NEW COVENANT aka The Gospel.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"
The Jews who rejected Christ continues to observe temple worship under the Mosaic Law.When the temple was destroyed in 70AD the sacrifice and oblation ceased because there was no longer a temple to have sacrifices in.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
It was 40 years since the death of Jesus Christ and the unbelieving, disobedient Jews were offering old covenant worship in direct rebellion to the new covenant. They had rejected the blood of Jesus and were still offering the blood of bulls and of goats which could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). Since they refused to accept Jesus Christ on their own, choosing rather to follow after an abolished system, God decided to take the necessary steps to eliminate that system of worship forever.

 

[nathan3]

Hey, lets have fun with this one. On the fourth day God created the sun and moon. A day to God is as 1000 years. So, with that in mind, If you go through all the "begats" it' approximately 4,000 years from Adam to Christ ( the fourth day). He also started His church in that same period "the fourth day". Christ is referred to the SUN of Righteousness and the light of the moon is the reflection of the sun ( the church).Then on the seventh day He rested.

Just throwing it out there have fun

Interesting thought, But I never heard we are suppose to take the begets as litteral 1000 years, unless it says they lived that long.( But its always good to think about those things ) .. I read the days God was in rejuvinating the earth as a thousand years each: after gen1:2 . well math has never been my strong point.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"
This is not talking about a peace treaty. It's referring to the NEW COVENANT aka The Gospel.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"
The Jews who rejected Christ continues to observe temple worship under the Mosaic Law.When the temple was destroyed in 70AD the sacrifice and oblation ceased because there was no longer a temple to have sacrifices in.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
It was 40 years since the death of Jesus Christ and the unbelieving, disobedient Jews were offering old covenant worship in direct rebellion to the new covenant. They had rejected the blood of Jesus and were still offering the blood of bulls and of goats which could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). Since they refused to accept Jesus Christ on their own, choosing rather to follow after an abolished system, God decided to take the necessary steps to eliminate that system of worship forever.

i have been through this on another thread...and honestly i would -love- to be convinced that this view is correct because it makes so much more sense than anything else...but it just doesn't seem to fit the specified chronological constraints of the seventy weeks daniel is talking about...i am still waiting for someone to present a chronology that actually works...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"
This is not talking about a peace treaty. It's referring to the NEW COVENANT aka The Gospel.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"
The Jews who rejected Christ continues to observe temple worship under the Mosaic Law.When the temple was destroyed in 70AD the sacrifice and oblation ceased because there was no longer a temple to have sacrifices in.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
It was 40 years since the death of Jesus Christ and the unbelieving, disobedient Jews were offering old covenant worship in direct rebellion to the new covenant. They had rejected the blood of Jesus and were still offering the blood of bulls and of goats which could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). Since they refused to accept Jesus Christ on their own, choosing rather to follow after an abolished system, God decided to take the necessary steps to eliminate that system of worship forever.

while I agree the treaty does not have to mean peace (we are not shown what type it is just a treaty)

it can't be Christ, he did not commit the abomination which makes desolate. Not to mention. Christ mentioned this, when you see it run..
also, if it was Christ who did the stopping of sacrifice and offering by his death and resurrection, (even though it continued until ad 70) he would have to have made this treat with the many 3 1/2 years before his death. and then 3 1/2 years after his death would be the end of the 70 weeks.. There was no end of sin in isreal. they continued to rebel ass they had since they left egypt.. no difference.

Sacrifice never took away sin, even when it was started by arron.. so it never was a means to salvation anyway,

Just my opinion though

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

There has been studies in which they followed how long a person lived and their sons and their sons etc... and the conclusion is approx. 4,000 years from Adam to Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i have been through this on another thread...and honestly i would -love- to be convinced that this view is correct because it makes so much more sense than anything else...but it just doesn't seem to fit the specified chronological constraints of the seventy weeks daniel is talking about...i am still waiting for someone to present a chronology that actually works...

try this.

“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Fulfilled literally when Christ entered jerusalem on a donkey, as prophesied by I think Isaiah.
The street[SUP][c][/SUP] shall be built again, and the wall,[SUP][d][/SUP] Even in troublesome times.

The time from the command given allowing Isreal to rebuild the city, until messiah,, Jerusalem had continually been under gentile dominion.. there was never peace (troubling times)
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Fulfilled literally 7 days after messiah the prince, or the end of the 69th week was completed. Christ was killed (cut off) but not for himself, for the world.

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood,

Fulfilled literally 30 some years after Christ when rome destroyed Jerusalem. Rome being the people of the prince who is to come or future prince.

And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jerusalem will remain desolate until the time when the war desolations are determined is complete

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

He (the prince who is to come) will confirm a covenant with many.. not sure what this covenant is or who the many are. most likely a world covenant. including with Isreal.

But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

According to Daniel 2, 7 and rev . This is a world leader, or beast, which will gain control of all the earth in this fierce gentile kingdom. He will commit the abomination and speak pompos words against God (will declare himself to be God

Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”



Also called the great tribulation, Jacobs trouble. or time of Gods wrath, being poured out on the desolate. or those who have rejected God and followed the beast.

According to Dan 2/7 matt 24 and lukes account, and rev, this time will end with the return of Christ.

 

[nathan3]

There has been studies in which they followed how long a person lived and their sons and their sons etc... and the conclusion is approx. 4,000 years from Adam to Christ.

as a teaching tool. i meant . anyway

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things that must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of, the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, even all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1.1-3, ASV


Notice the words, "must shortly come to pass." Keep in mind that the original writings of this were written more that 1943 years ago. If we would use this phrase today what would it mean. For example, "the time for the Pittsburgh Pirates to win the World Series must shortly come to pass." Would that mean it wouldn't happen for more than 1900 years from now? Of course, the way the Pirates have been playing in the last 20 years, that might not be too far off. Okay, bad example. But, I think you get the point. If someone were to say that, you would expect the Pirates to win the World Series in the next couple years, and you might even expect to see it in your lifetime.


Well, why would this phrase mean one thing today, and something else when the Bible was originally written? The answer: it doesn't. Have the meanings of words changed that dramatically? The fact is, the people of the time of the apostles did expect the return of Christ in their lifetime. This is evidenced by 2 Peter 3 where Peter made a point to warn of mockers who would ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" (v.4) Why would Peter give this warning? It's because that is what the apostles taught, the soon return of Christ, but he didn't want these mockers to upset the faithful. And then he comforted them by telling them that the Lord is not slack concerning his return, but wanted all to be saved.


It is apparent that the apostles taught the soon return of Christ in their lifetime. Otherwise, the mockers would have had nothing to base their derision on.


And then, at the end of verse three, John wrote that the time was at hand. If I'd say my tea cup was at hand, would you think my tea cup was out in California, while I'm sitting in Pennsylvania? Of course not. You would think that my tea cup was near to me. So, why does that phrase mean something different in the Bible. The answer, it doesn't. These words mean the exact same thing in out contemporary use of the words as they did when they were originally written. You can check it out in the Greek. It won't change anything.


There is no doubt, the apostles taught the return of Christ in their lifetime. So what went wrong? Nothing. What's wrong is the futurist's interpretation.


John wrote that the events he wrote about "must shortly come to pass." If they didn't, then John lied. And so did God, whom gave it to Christ, who then gave it to John, via an angel.


I can't for the life of me understand why people can't understand this. For anyone that has a working knowledge of the English language, this should be plain.

in ref to peter 3.. We see this today more than in peters day

Science says the earth is millions of years old because they say things have been the same since creation. so they do not take into account the earths past in the flood and how catostrophic it was.. and how the autmosphere in the earth was different, so their science is flawed..

It realy would not mean anything in peters day. It was a warning to us, as is revelation.

 

[Elizabeth619]

i have been through this on another thread...and honestly i would -love- to be convinced that this view is correct because it makes so much more sense than anything else...but it just doesn't seem to fit the specified chronological constraints of the seventy weeks daniel is talking about...i am still waiting for someone to present a chronology that actually works...

I have always understood apocalyptic writing to not be in chronological order. If you look at all apocalyptic writing none of it is really in chronological order.

 

[crossnote]

Hey, lets have fun with this one. On the fourth day God created the sun and moon. A day to God is as 1000 years. So, with that in mind, If you go through all the "begats" it' approximately 4,000 years from Adam to Christ ( the fourth day). He also started His church in that same period "the fourth day". Christ is referred to the SUN of Righteousness and the light of the moon is the reflection of the sun ( the church).Then on the seventh day He rested.

Just throwing it out there have fun

It says 'is as' not 'is'.
...just having fun too.

 

[Laodicea]

You are missing something young man. "Behold he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1.7, ASV And again, "7Look! He is coming in the clouds.

Every eye will see him,even those who pierced him,and all the tribes of the earth will mournbecause of him.​

So be it! Amen." - ISV, isv.com

Often when people quote Revelation 1.7, they seldom do completely. It says that those who pierced him would see him. So, this verse limits the time when those who pierced him would still be alive.

God can resurrect them. No problem for God.
Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Laodicea]

It has to do with the timing John wrote Revelation. Nero was alive when John wrote it since he mentioned him by name.

Where is he mentioned by name?

 

[Elizabeth619]

Where is he mentioned by name?

Gematria.
It is an old Jewish system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase.

In Hebrew, "Nero Caesar" is spelled "נרון קסר". Adding the values gives 666 or 616. Kind of hard to explain, but it is actually true. Look up Gematria sometime and read up on it.

 

[Laodicea]

Gematria.
It is an old Jewish system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase.

In Hebrew, "Nero Caesar" is spelled "נרון קסר". Adding the values gives 666 or 616. Kind of hard to explain, but it is actually true. Look up Gematria sometime and read up on it.

The NT was written in Greek not Hebrew. Also He said Nero is mentioned by name so where is he mentioned by name? So which is it 666 or 616?

 

[Laodicea]

Also since you people are teaching that it was fulfilled before 70 AD as you mentioned in a previous post then what about these verses when where they fulfilled?
Revelation 16:19-21 KJV
(19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[TomL]

Aww man, its time to start from square one. That's just my honest advice.

I did start from square one a long time. You see, I was a futurist too. I studied under the tutelage of other futurists. It got so convoluted and confusing, with pre-mil, post mil, au-mil, pre-trib, post-trib, etc., I gave up. Till one day, oh maybe 30 years ago, I read Rev. 1.3. That there was a blessing in reading and hearing the prophecy. So I started anew. I was not seeking to become a preterist. I just want to make sense of it all. One day, I stumbled on Matthew 16.27-28.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. Verily I say unto you, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." - ASV

That settled it for me. Verse 27 sounded like what I always learned to be the second coming of Christ. Verse 28 gave the approximate time for that coming. In the life time of some that were standing there. These 2 verses ended my days as a futurist. As it was, I was still a member of the Church of Christ, and I talked to the preacher about it. He didn't agree. But he did tell me about Ed Stevens. I contacted Ed, who told me about John Keesy, who gave me a copy of "The Parosia," by J.Stewart Russell. I think I got a third of the way through. It's a 900 plus page book. And it was getting redundant. So, now I just use it for research. John Keesy also told me about Luke Martin. And I have had many discussions with Luke, and still do. Plus, I did much study on my own as well.

That was the beginning. Today, I am firmly grounded in the theology of fulfillment. I really don't like the term "preterist." I prefer "fulfillment." The message of fulfillment is that all things are fulfilled in Christ, with no exceptions.

So, you see, I was a futurist, but it never made sense, and I like things to make sense. As Scripture states, "The truth shall make you free." I was set free from the daunting task of trying to figure out which brand of futurism was the right one.

I still don't have all the answers. So, obviously I can't give an answer for all the questions. But I believe I have shared enough for any truthseeker to understand. If one is firmly grounded in futurism, I doubt I will change their minds. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try. Only God knows for sure.

 

[TomL]

So, where do you put the tribulation and the Antichrist? There is a real Antichrist that makes a treaty with Israel, which by the way, has never happened yet. Caesar didn't do it, because no Jew trusted him, neither was he ever in the Temple.

Where did Jesus put the tribulation? I'll give you a hint. Matthew 24.21.